3 days with Ikon + 50/1.5 + 21/4.5

[Matus]

So it looks like I will finally get my hands on Zeiss Ikon and 2 lenses - the Sonnar C 50/1.5 and the 21/4.5 - although only for 3 days.

I have learned recently that, as an employ at Zeiss (I am new there. I do not work for Photo division, though I hope to gain a bit more insight in the future ) I can borrow the Zeiss products like lenses or binoculars for a weekend to try out.

In the past I have shot with Bessa R3A and Jupiter 3 and while I liked the camera I found it a bit too 'rough' and loud. The lens had a lot of charm for portraits but I did not like the rather low contrast. I sold both and did not shoot small format since (more than a year).

I chose the lenses above to get the taste of the Sonnar (I have seen some great photos taken with it) and to see whether I can use a 21mm lens as I keep thinking I can (my wides lens now is the 75/4.5 Grandagon for 4x5 and that is entirely different experience). I could probably ask for more lenses, but I think that 2 is more than enough for just 3 days.

Using the Zeiss Ikon will let me finally see how the camera differs from Bessa R3A and whether it would work for me or not. I also want to get the impression on the fit&finish of the camera and lenses.

I also want to see - being a MF & LF snob (bare with me) - whether I could 'live' with a small format camera (If not I may at some point pick some mirror-less digital instead - I have resisted so far). So I will be trying to shoot all possible subjects one all kinds of film (BW, C41, E6).

So, I am basically just sharing the joy - I will pick the camera and lenses on Thursday.

Me and my wife may visit Stuttgart on Saturday so if someone wants to grab a cup of coffee and do some gear-chat I would not say no

[hipsterdufus]

Sounds like you've got some fun ahead of you. Post up the pictures once you've got them scanned! Congrats on the job at Zeiss.

[mfogiel]

Hi,
Try to read this thread first:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ns+of+c+sonnar
The C Sonnar is a lens in a class of its own, but you have to know how to use it, so it would be helpful if they told you if it is optimized for wide open or for f2.8 - my guess is, if they don't know, it will be f 2.8.
The C Biogon 21 is an improved Hasselblad SWC 35mm version - a lens without a fault, but, like all the ZM line, with the exception of the C Sonnar, rather contrasty, so if you shoot B&W, it is better to overexpose somewhat and pull the film later. For an immediate impression about the ZI picture quality, take it next WE with the Biogon, or C Biogon 35 - this is a magic combination. BTW, the sharpest lenses of all the line, are the 25/2.8 Biogon and 85/2 Sonnar.

ZI+Biogon 35/2

2008010812 by mfogiel, on Flickr

[Matus]

Thanks. I will certainly post some results - hopefully something acceptable will come out.

I will ask whether the Sonnar is optimized for 1.5 of 2.8 - I am aware of the focus shift of that lens. Good point about the hight contrast - I have recently started to use Xtol (1+1) and do not really have the 'feel' for it yet. I already got a few too contrasty (looks like slightly overdeveloped) films, so I need to be careful.

In general I will shoot FP4+, Delta 100 & Delta 400. If anyone would have an advice on EI and development (Again - Xtol 1+1) it would be very helpful.

EDIT: I will probably also use Pyrocat HD for some of the films (I have used that developer a lot and contrary to most get about 1/2 stop to 1 stop less speed - probably my metering technique)

[redisburning]

Shoot delta at box speed and be careful with your exposure.

I really like Delta 400 but I do personally think Acros is a better 100 speed film than Delta 100.

[Tom A]

You are getting to use two of the best lenses from the Zeiss line-up. The 50f1.5 is pretty well my standard 50 - and it has something that no other lens, by anyone else, has in black/white. Coupled with the Pyrocat HD it really 'sings". I just finished off a batch of Pyrocat HD - and my time for Arista Premium 400 was as a semi stand developer, 1:1:100, 5 min prewash, 18 min tim in HD with agitation at 3/6/9/12 and 15 min.
The 21f4.5 C Biogon is in a class by itself. Less than 0.09% distortion, medium contrast and sharp, soo sharp!
I agree that the 25f2.8 is another stellar lens (beats Leica's 24f2.8 Asph) - but also try to borrow the C Biogon 35mm f2.8 - a lens that has already a bit of "legendary" status.

[BobYIL]

Lucky you.. The C-Sonnar is my "prime" amongst a dozen 50's.. Terrific is the word to describe the sharpness of the 25mm Biogon -Zeiss claims up to 400 lines/mm!- The C-Biogon 35 looks humble however it's the most "faultless" 35 I've ever used and wide open has a smooth bokeh you can not expect from an f2.8 lens. I also use 28mm G-Biogon.. I do not believe that I would ever sell them (before Zeiss come up with better ones..)

[Matus]

I have heard so much about the Acros that I guess I will have to try it one day, but right now I have a lot of film so this will have to wait a bit. Hopefully it will still be available then ...

- Tom -
I have used with several 120 film semi-stand agitation with Puyrocat HD (1:1:100) and agitating as you mentioned every 3 minutes (with prewash too) - and got considerable streaks across the film - I did not manage to find out what was wrong, so I went back to agitating every minute. Afterwards I got an idea - maybe I did not mix the developer well enough before pouring it inside the Jobo drum, but I am not 100% sure (though it would be compatible with the orientation of the streaks). PLEASE - could you describe for me in detail your development process? I really like Pyrocat HD (in particular in 120 and 4x5") Also - at which speed do you rate the films for Pyrocat?

i did consider to get also one of the 35mm Biogons, but I already know that they are top lenses and pretty much a 'no brainers' (OK, I might prefer the Summarin 35/2.5 based on the pictures I have seen, but just a little). I decided to try the Sonnar C and a 21mm lens. But maybe next time

[Tom A]

Matus, I do the pyrocat HD in 5 reel Paterson tanks. Five minutes pre-wash on an old Uni Roller agitator (2 turns one way, then it does two tirmes the other way. Once the prewash is dumped and Pyrocat is poured in - another minute on the agitator and after that conventional twist/flip of the tank for 10 sec at the 3/6/9 etc interval.
The advantage is that I use a full 1500 ml in the tank so there is no laminar flow across the film surface as it is always submerged in developer. The JOBO uses less developer and that can cause the flow across the film to be interrupted, hence the streaks.

[Matus]

Tom, the observation on the volume of developer is an interesting one. Next time I will try to put only 1 film (120) at a time on the reel, but I will spool it closer to the center so there will be more developer 'around' the film.

But now onto the gear!

So - I have the camera in my hands (no shooting yet - it was a working day ). On top of the 50/1.5 and 21/4.5 I also got the 85/4.0 (I did not actually ask, I just got one).

I of course tried a Smalltalk to try to look behind the curtain
Here are a few bits I consider share-able (I want to keep my job):

Firstly It was really cool - the office was FULL of Zeiss (mostly SLR) lenses MANY DLSR bodies (mostly FX) and quite some mirror-less. Actually they had all the relevant mirror-less cameras ( M9, NEX7, Xpro1, ...). The exception was the Ricoh GXR. When I asked about it I was told that there are simply too few of these sold on german market and Zeiss customers rarely ask about it. So they do not test their lenses on it. I told them that GXR M-mount offers the best correction for wide angle lenses (based on what I have seen on internet)

I asked about the 24/1.8 lens for NEX and it's size - and got a straight answer - "you either get the small size or good performance". I did not argue about that.

We spoke briefly about the Zeiss lenses for NEX cameras. There will probably be some more in the future - that is all I know and that is what one would expect anyhow. Zeiss may also enter m4/3 market via some cooperation with Japanese companies, but I have no idea how far in the future is that and if ever.

As I got the Sonnar 85/4 in hand I asked about the two 85 lenses (f/2.0 and f/4.0). the 2.0 one was discontinued (I did not know, as this is no news), however the reason was quoted that some of the mechanical parts which were from 3rd party are not available and it would not be economically reasonable to produce the. So once the batch of the 85/2.0 sold there were not any more produced. I asked why there were 2 lenses instead of one 2.8 as it is known that the two 85 lenses do not sell too fast - I got the answer that all the lens line was designed at the beginning and indeed if they were to do it again there would probably only be 85/2.8.

I asked about the Sonnar 50/1.5 and the focus shift and how the lens is optimized. I was told that the f/1.5 vs f/2.8 optimization story is not quite correct - the lenses (today) are optimized such that there is 1 - 2 cm front focus at 1m distance and f/1.5. The focus (as we know) moves backwards with stopping down and is therefore OK with the rest of the f-stops. I guess one could call this optimization at f/2.0 or f/2.8.

The guys spoke very highly about the NEX7 - they use this camera to test the resolution of there lenses - not a surprise given the pixel density.

They are just about to use the XPro1 (together with the original Fuji M-mount adapter) more - as the adapter was just delivered they did not have much experience yet. But I will try to keep in touch. I had the XPro1 in hand for a while and it felt quite lightweight (with the 35/1.4 lens). I threw a short view through the optical viewfinder and, well, it is small. Spec say 0.5x and that's what it is. Same as the fixed lens Konica S3 I used to have. Incomparable to the viewfinder of the Zeiss Ikon (as one would expect).

We spoke shortly about the M9 - it is after all the only FX camera for M-mount lenses. Obviously it gets used to test how the wide angle lenses work on FX digital camera. Though we agreed that neither of us would buy one just for private use (but because of price and not performance). Unfortunately I was not able to take it home with me.

BTW, I also asked about mechanical issues that some users reported with Zeiss lenses (I recalled some problems with the grease drying out) and was told that Zeiss switched to different grease which while being slightly stiffer, should have longer life. On that basis new (or by Zeiss fully CLA'd) lens which is used regularly should by fine for 10 years.

*************

So now I have at home one great looking black Zeiss Ikon together with black 50/1.5 and silver 21/4.5 (+ VF) and silver 80/4.0

Shooting will start tomorrow morning and will continue until Monday morning. I have PELNTY of film to burn and do not hesitate to do so

[bugmenot]

Great insight on Zeiss and their lens designs and plans. I am especially delighted to hear more Zeiss NEX lenses would be coming in the future. It is great that despite the lenses being built in Japan by Cosina, all research and testing is still done Germany. Enjoy the Ikon and the lenses. Be sure to share some of your photographs with fellow RFF'ers

[mfogiel]

Generally, the Pyro type developers cut your film speed in half - at least this has been my experience with most traditional emulsions - I am not sure about the Deltas, but it is better to err on the side of overexposure anyway, as this is a highly compensating developer, so you are unlikely to blow the highlights.

[Matus]

Well, I would not say that I have an insight on Zeiss plans as I really don't. One needs to realize that in general Zeiss is careful before introducing new products as introducing top quality products the customers can really on is core part of the philosophy. You do not find lower-end lenses or binoculars or medical products in their lines.

It was also my impression that Pyrocat HD gives indeed 1/2 - 1 stop less speed, but the guys in the know who work with Pyrocat for many years (and write books about it) say that mostly one gets the box speed. But again - this could be my metering technique.

Just as a side not - I have seen some results with divided Pyrocat (for special high contrast scenes taken with on sheet film) and the results (what processed and exposed properly) were amazing.

[kshapero]

I love this kit. I have an M3 with a 50mm Cron and a Super Angulon 21/3.4

[Matus]

So - here are my impressions after my first day (we went to visit Schwäbisch Gmünd - smaller city in south Germany) of the shooting with this combo:

The camera - sits well in hand (the surface is quite grippy). The shutter is relatively loud, but I find the sound less annoying that that of Bessa R3A. The view/rangefinder is a treat - the frame lines for 85 lens are still large enough to comfortably frame the subject. The shutter speed readout can be hard to see under bright conditions though. The black finish looks really good (the camera I got looks like new and the lenses too - even thug the 85 seem to be No.3! ). Compact silver lenses (like the 21/4.5) look great of the camera too. Black as well. Should I ever get a ZI I would certainly get a black one

As the weather was rainy and windy I decided to buy a neck strap (simple one from Hama) to keep the camera higher on my chest to shield it from rain. This proved to be a reasonable solution (I only had wrist-strap along).

As I was using all 3 lens I quickly decided that the best will be to keep the 21 viewfinder in the hot shoe permanently as it did not get in the way while wearing the camera around my neck. Concerning the viewfinder itself - it is solid and holds in its place reasonably well, but I would prefer if it had a fixing screw to be on the safe side. I also had hard time to 'mentally digest' the distortion - it makes harder to level the camera by eye.

All of the lenses were nice to use - very smooth. The focus on the 21 could have been a little stiffer.

The 50 frame lines have a LOT of space around them (but are still plenty large) - I guess that 35mm lens must be the sweet spot.

I have exposed one Velvia 50 and one Delta 400. I expected to shoot more, but hey - that are 72 frames (I am used that 2 films make it just 24). I plan to shoot some Ektar and PanF 50 and also some HP5 and .... whatever I will manage. I am curios what will come out. If I find the time I may take a few shots with the 50/1.5 and Minolta AF 50/1.4 as my wife has one - just to see the differences in real life.

So much for today.

[seakayaker1]

Matus, thanks for the interesting thread. The only Zeiss lens that I have at the moment is the Sonnar 50/1.5, currently sitting on my MP with a roll of HP5.

I did have the 25/2.8 but sold it when I picked up a Leica 24/3.8. A decision I do not regret but can say with complete confidence that the 25/2.8 is a stellar lens. Both lenses are fantastic.

Look forward to reading your future comments from your weekend experiences and seeing some of the photos that you tool.

[Matus]

I actually forgot an important part of today's story: I was trying to make photo through a fence of some older buildings with courtyard full of old stuff (only true photographers take such a photos, right ) and while trying to get around the fence bars the lens cap (original one of course) slipped of and fell some 2 meters down. As the whole area belong to some company there was nobody there and so no legal option to retrieve the cap. So I asked the neighbors who were just loading their truck with some stuff and they just suggested I climb the fence from their property as there was easier access. So I did exactly that and got the lens cap. However as I did not climb any fences in a while, on my way back I managed to tear my favorite shirt and puncture the sole of my shoe on one of the spikes. So this cap turned to be quite expensive one (my wife luckily does not know about the shoe).

I did take the photo afterwards - just took more care

[seakayaker1]

. . . . . zeiss lens caps are notorious for popping off. As soon as the camera comes out of the bag with the zeiss lens, I take the cap off and placed in my pants pocket until the camera goes back into the bag.

[Matus]

So the camera was returned. I have managed to expose just under 5 films. The weather over the weekend was a bit on the rainy side.

I have really enjoyed using the Ikon - my impressions are the following:

The camera:
Fit and finish is nice and definitely better than on Bessa R3A. The film advance is not overly too smooth, but OK. The shutter is rather loud - rather comparable to mechanical SLRs and 'sharper' or more 'metallic' as current DSLRs. Not disturbing on the street, but unless it is a really noisy street the people around will notice it within a distance of 5 - 10 meters. But that did not really bother me either.

The lenses:
I have obviously not seen yet the results, but the lenses felt good in hand - smooth foci sung, just the right tension for the aperture ring. I did find the 21/4.5 and 85/4 too slow on some occasions (21 inside churches and the 85 in the shades with ISO 100 film), but on the other hand I did enjoy the compactness - in particular the 21. The finish on the lenses is very nice too - how long they stay looking nice when used on regular basis is something I do not know though.

The smalltalk

Whatever is written bellow should be taken with a grain of salt, please

We had a chat again when I was giving the camera back as they wanted to know my impressions. On of the first things I mentioned was the lens cap design. The reply was that indeed they are aware of the non ideal design and actually improvement is since some time under design, but it looks like it does not rank high enough on the priority list.

It was also mentioned that in the long term the future of the Ikon (not the lenses) may not be 100% sure (I personally do not think that there was some decision taken already) - the market has changed a lot since 2005 when the whole setup was designed. Tests and development today are mostly done with digital cameras in mind - in particular the NEX and Fuji Xpro1. However also OM-D finds its uses as it has very high pixel density so it is interesting for lens tests of the ZM lenses. Byt the way - they spoke highly about the Fuji 35/1.4 lens for Fuji Xpro1. I personally found the lens a bit on the 'fat' side - that is maybe why some users find the Xpro1 a bit bulky even though it is about the same as M9.

We talked about the lenses - the 25/2.8 was indeed mentioned as the top lens in the SM lineup - I was told that it was designed by one of their most experienced designers who came up with some particular design that allows the lens to perform so well.

DSLRs - while I am not particularly interested in this direction, we did talk about DLSRs. I asked about the D800 and D800e and the difference between them and was told that with their test procedures the difference is visible but very small. But so is the difference between scaled up files from D3x and D800 (after all it is only 50% more pixels). I had in hand the D3x with one of the more substantial Zeiss lenses and it reminded me of the Pentax 645N (size and weight). In general higher-end DSLRs were suggested with Zeiss lenses - purely for the operation and size. The Zeiss SLR lenses are quite substantial so that really makes sense. (Personally I would only get a FX camera for these should I ever decide to carry all that weight)

Now it gets to the part where I can not tell you everything ,but I would say that Photokina 2012 might be interesting to both SLR and mirror-less (there I am not 100% sure, but higher end mirror-less cameras seem to attract higher-end lens producers) users. Don't ask for more please (I do not know much more anyhow ) BTW, they also expect Leica M10 to appear, but that is common expectation since some time.

I was also asked when I plan turn to digital - I said that I am not sure yet. But I would well imagine getting the Zeiss Ikon with a few lenses and then later add a digital body - could be a great combination for BW/color. I would not say to to a mint used Leica M9 for some $1500 if somebody should have one laying in a drawer

**************

So - now I have to send 3 films to lab and develop 2 myself - I am really curios what is going to come out. I have tried several things I have not done before, so there might be some surprises there (hopefully some positive ones too)

I hope to have a few usable photographs in a week or 2 ..., or 3.

[bugmenot]

Since Zeiss is so close with Sony, I wonder if they actually told you about high end NEX and Alpha DSLR models coming out in Photokina 2012 ...

Of course, you probably can't answer that.

Thank you for your insight and sharing your experience!

If I were to make a suggestion, I'd say on a different occasion, pick up the NEX-7 and the Zeiss 24mm f/1.8, and do some testing with that. It might surprise you in a good way

[Matus]

You are correct - I can't - but they actually did not (I guess I have to work on my social skills ) tell me much (and in particular not WHEN). I got to know a tiny bit (well, it was physically quite a large bit ) - I think there will be new products in several categories. I would (and may) have to got to Photokina myself to see.

NEX7 and the Zeiss lens is tempting but a pricey combination. And I want to see more than one really good lens before I would buy. In particular in wide angle.

I will certainly wait till Photokine with any digital purchase - and if my hopes will not be fulfilled than I may simply order the GXR with M-mount AND borrow a few lenses from Zeiss again and print a few 16x20" and see whether I like them or not. With M-mount lenses one has more freedom among the digital systems.

[EdwardKaraa]

So any news about that digital Zeiss Ikon that has been promised for so many years?

[Matus]

Originally Posted by EdwardKaraa

So any news about that digital Zeiss Ikon that has been promised for so many years?

Now that is one thing I can tell you will NOT happen ... I asked ... sorry.

[Matus]

Concerning the shutter sound I should probably add, that I am not using actively any SLR although I do have an old DSLR and my wife shoots Minolta 7. In other words rest of my cameras have leaf shutters silent, so I am a bit spoilt in this regards. But indeed compared to these two SLRs the shutter of the ZI sounds a more metallic.

Yeah - it is nice to be able to borrow the lenses (although they mostly do that for their own colleagues as they would have to keep too many cameras and lenses for this purpose - remember I do not work for Photo division ), but it is a pity they do not borrow also the digital cameras they have - I could use an M9 for a weekend too

[k__43]

I'm not a 50mm person .. like at all, but I really can't part with the c-sonnar - although it would pay for a badly needed second M-body.
It's that good.

For the focus shift - I've seen a review regarding this issue on this lens somewhere and tried that adapted on a digital camera myself. I found the same: if you stop down from f/1.5 to f/2.8 the DOF increases mostly behind the focus point, so all you have to do is to set the focus to the nearest point that you want to be sharp at f/2.8 and not in the middle of the DOF and you should be fine.
That said, I find the lens is made for shooting peoples faces wide open.