LTM newcomer needs help!

[Vics]

I THINK I want a IIIc and a 5cm Elmar 3.5 lens. I've been shooting an M3 with 50 Summoicron ad 35 Summaron for six years and LOVE it! But now I want to try the Barnack experience. I thought I'd start out with the combination above, but I thought you folks might have some pointers on things to look for. I'll be shooting all black and white with this camera. Any pointers?

[maddoc]

I think it is a good starting point and the combination as "classic" as it gets. The IIIf might also be interesting, it has added flash sync. Personally, I am thinking about bringing just my IIIb w/ 5cm 1:3.5 Elmar to my next business-trip and enjoy this mechanical jewel.

EDIT: About pointers, RF prism might have deteriorated over time so better to check for a good contrast of the RF patch. Also, the shutter curtain might need some attention after 60 ~ 70 years. The 5cm Elmar is one of the Leica classics, produced over a long time span and different coatings. I think a later coated type (post-war) is suitable.

[Vickko]

In my mind, there are two types of Barnack cameras, those with rangefinders and those without.

I tended towards the later ones, IIIg and IIIf. But the earlier ones were more compact, without say the strap lugs.

Not all the cameras went to 1/1000 sec, and not all had slow speeds. And of course not all had flash syncs.

[maddoc]

The Barnacks without RF are the Standard and I types, II (no slow speeds) and all III (a, b, c, f, g) have RF. The III a and b have slightly smaller (shorter) bodies, the g is larger and has frame lines.

[rxmd]

If you just want to try it out, you could just buy a Zorki, which will take all your LTM lenses and, when in good condition, will give you the full Barnack experience for a fifth of the price.

[Bingley]

I have a IIIc and an Elmar 50/3.5. It's a great shooting combination, particularly if the lens is a good sample. Leica made tons of Elmar 50s, and they remain among the most affordable of Leica lenses. In terms of pointers...

(1) I'd get the IIIc CLA'd, unless it's already had one. A new set of shutter curtains and a new beamsplitter will set you up for many years. Send it off to Youxin Ye for a service, and you'll be a happy camper.

(2) A 50 external vf is a nice addition, and means you don't need to rely on the squinty vf on the IIIc. I use a CV Brightline finder on mine.

(3) Look for the hood for the Elmar. Although the Elmar is more flare resistant than, say, a Summitar, it's still an older lens.

(4) You don't need to trim the leaders on the film, but I would avoid the card loading trick that's often recommended. I loused up the shutter when I didn't insert a metro card correctly, and had to have the camera repaired. Take the time to set the shutter to T, open the shutter, take off the lens, and guide the film down with your finger so it seats properly. Youxin recommended this method, and it works.

[funkydog]

Loading film is part of the fun and charm of the LTM Leicas. There are many ways to do it. Try them all to see which method suits you.
I prefer to trim the film leader using a homemade cardboard template and I prep four rolls at a time so that I wont be caught short when out shooting.

[Thomas78]

I think a Leica IIIc and a Elmar 50 mm are a good start.

I also trim the leader at home with a scissors. I just count 20 sprocket holes one the long side and cut the film free hand (takes about 30 s).
It works perfectly without taking the lens of the camera and the risk to damage it.

[buzzardkid]

Mine is a Leica II and I love it.

The IIIc and IIIf usually are more pricy because of the flash sync and the slow times but I never use flash and the slow times under 1/20th are not very precise, while the 1/1000th on most camera's isn't quite 1/1000th either, more like 1/650th on many Barnacks.

The II ranges from 1/20th to 1/500th.

Leitz also re-built existing III's and IIIa's to synchronized models at the factory at customers request, models which then are dubbed III-syn and IIIa-syn. You get the slow times and a factory-fitted flash sync, but no 1/1000th. Might save you some money since most sellers don't know that it is an 'upgraded' camera and use the price of non-upgraded camera's as a reference point to set the price on their specimen.

There's an lengthy thread on the do's and don'ts of either way of Barnack film loading in the LTM thread, lots of viewpoints debated extensively, for your enjoyment...

Happy shooting!

[David Hughes]

Hi,

IIIc is a pleasant basic and straight-forward camera. And you can buy them with the contemporary lens that is coated, which makes a lot of difference.

But remember it could be 70 to 75 years old and may well need attention (regardless of what the seller says). One from a dealer with a guarantee might be a better bet, imo. The acid test is to put a film through it. Colour usually shows the lenses up in the worst way and so are a good test, even if you never put another colour film in it.

Regards, David

[ray*j*gun]

A IIIc with the Elmar 3,5 is my favorite rig for most occasions. I agree with getting a hood and a 50mm vf but be aware they are bothe quit hard to find these days. I have shot mine without those aids for years and had zero problems. GET A CAMERA THAT HAS BEEN SERVICED, or get it serviced. These are great machines but the lubs wear out after all those years and the difference is amazing once they have been CLA'd.

[Vics]

Thanks for all your responses. I use an IROOA on my M lenses. Will it fit the Elmar? I've been thinking about a IIIc or IIIf just because they seem to be less rare than the others. Is that true?

[ray*j*gun]

The IIIc is the most common of the Barnacks and usually are more affordable. I have a IIIf as well and I never use the flash sync so that's not an issue with me. I believe the IROOA will not work on the Elmars but I am not positive. Again I would highly recommend that you either buy a rig thats been serviced or get it done. It will likely shape how you feel about Barnacks forever.

[Vics]

Originally Posted by ray*j*gun

The IIIc is the most common of the Barnacks and usually are more affordable. I have a IIIf as well and I never use the flash sync so that's not an issue with me. I believe the IROOA will not work on the Elmars but I am not positive. Again I would highly recommend that you either buy a rig thats been serviced or get it done. It will likely shape how you feel about Barnacks forever.

I'm not usually a fan of the automatic CLA, but in this case, I think you may have a good point, considering the age of these cameras, and I do want to give the Barnacks the best chance of winning me over. My IROOA does have "1:3.5/50" engraved on it, but that may be only for M-mount lenses. I think I'll just wait and see on that.
Does anyone have experience buying from Youxin Ye?

[Sparrow]

... I've had a converted IIIa kicking about in the car's glove box for years, it once had to be repaired when something jammed, too much is made of the loading thing ... trim the first bit of the film (the width of my hand) to half the width of the film, I have done it with a fork in a cafe by sticking a prong in the sprocket hole then tearing it down the the length with my nails, still went straight in and wound without problems ... I don't get this pre-emptive repair CLA business myself, buy it from a good shop then take it back if it doesn't work

[Dralowid]

Your choice is fine but 100% dependant on condition. Chances are you are likely to find an Elmar in better condition than the alternatives and IIIcs are plentiful.

'Practical' condition is all (rather than cosmetics), it is more important than version

Michael

[flip]

Don't shy away from the Russians and Japanese. I have an Industar on my Nicca 5 and find it quite the combo for a lot less cash.

[MISH]

I have a IIIf that while in beautiful cosmetic condition was experiencing some shutter capping. I sent it off to Youxin and he said one of the shutter curtains was getting hard and would be causing problems down the road. I chose to replace the curtains and while I thought the rangefinder was pretty good it only cost $30 extra to replace the beam splitter so I did that too. The beam splitter was money well spent as it made a noticeable improvement and he sent me back the old curtains so I could see just what kind of shape they were in. Now I have a camera that feels and operates like new and really have to remind myself that it is actually almost sixty years old. My advice would be to phone Youxin up, tell him what you are looking for, see what he has. The prices I have seen on the cameras he sells seems to me quite reasonable for a camera with a CLA
and even if you end up not buying from him I am sure he can give you some advice that will help you on your quest.
As I said I have a IIIf red dial and I can heartily recommend the IIIf, I kind of bought it on a whim because the price was right and I have ended up enjoying it much more than I expected. one regret that I might have is that mine does not have the self timer and while I don't really need one a IIIf with a self timer is one of the best looking cameras ever made IMHO. I also have a couple of M bodies and some really fantastic M glass but I find they often get left at home and I am taking out the IIIf instead. To me a Barnack are at essence what Photography should be......... fun fun fun
(and if you are used to paying M prices they seem unbelievably cheep)

(I should also mention that a IIIf without a self timer also one of the best looking cameras ever made)

[Vics]

I'm so grateful to all of you for all your advice! I think I'll start by looking for a good sample of the Elmar lens and an M adaptor so I can shoot it on my M3, then go looking for a body. That way, if I don't like the lens, I can sell it and forget the whole thing. I don't think it will go that way though. But I would like more time to explore more body options while still enjoying the Elmar. The model II could be interesting. I've only very rarely used the speeds below 1/30th.

[sanmich]

My two cents...

About the film, and the frames on it:
I like not to need to crop, and when I occasionally print in the darkroom, I print full frame.
with that in mind, be aware that:
My IIIf's have a small pusher that make sure the film is at the right height, so you won't have the sprocket entering the frame.
for some reason, my old III have a larger inter frame spacing (or is it the frames that are smaller). At any rate, on a IIIf (and maybe c) and specially with wide angles where the images gets even bigger ( "crawling" under the camera window), the frames are almost touching each other.
You may not care at all about these issues, but they are there.
in the end, with the few barnacks I had, I always needed new shutters curtains and beamsplitters.
Also, do yourself a favor, and buy an external VF. These really change the camera ergonomics.
I prefer cutting the leader than using the "B" method, simply because I don't like to have my lens rear element open too much.
You can use cassettes (FILCAs or IXMOOs).
Tons of great glass in ltm, some of it very pricey...

Good luck!

[Dralowid]

For what it is worth IIfs can be about as cheap as a screw Leica can be, and I suppose they are comparatively recent. The red dial IIf is far more common than black dial but whether it has an effect on value I know not.

Michael

[Vics]

Originally Posted by Dralowid

For what it is worth IIfs can be about as cheap as a screw Leica can be, and I suppose they are comparatively recent. The red dial IIf is far more common than black dial but whether it has an effect on value I know not.

Michael

My "Identifyting Leica Cameras" Says red dial IIf is '52 to '56. KEH hyas one for about $350, I think. Canadian. Ha flash Synch and 1/1000. You're right about the rarity. The IIc looks good, too. Less to go wrong...,

[Vics]

I did it. I bought a red dial IIf at KEH, and I hope it works well, cause I don't yet have a lens. If anyone wants to sell me their Elmar 3.5/5cm, drop me a PM.

[Dralowid]

The correct Elmar for the camera is probably the one that goes to f 22 but not the red scale version (which has an unjustifiably inflated price in my opinion)...but to be honest, anything coated should be fine.

Michael

[Bingley]

Originally Posted by Vics

I did it. I bought a red dial IIf at KEH, and I hope it works well, cause I don't yet have a lens. If anyone wants to sell me their Elmar 3.5/5cm, drop me a PM.

Check with Youxin Ye about the Elmar 50. He sometimes has them for sale. I bought mine (a 1947 coated version) from him, and it's been a great little lens.

Congrats on the RD IIF. I had the same version for a while and loved it. Ultimately, I sold it b/c I needed slower speeds often enough, but it's definitely a cool little shooter.