M4 issue

batey_1020 · 10-10-2012

This may be a stupid question. But im basically completly new to film and Leicas

I just got to the end of a roll on my M4 and wound past 36 exposures. I didnt feel any increased tension on the film advance. Is it normal to be able to wind past the number of exposures?

Brian Legge · 10-10-2012

Is the rewind knob turning when you advance? If so, you are fine; you may get a few extra shots. If not, the film may not have loaded correctly.

john neal · 10-10-2012

as above, but also depends on the make of film, but 39 frames is quite usual for Kodak and Ilford

batey_1020 · 10-10-2012

Was watching the rewind as i kept going up to about 37 i think it was. I didnt watch it after that

. I went on to almost 40 and didnt feel the end. and got concearned at that point and decided to rewind.

I just took the film out with no problem but im just concerned that i didnt feel the end of the roll. The same thing happened with a roll of XP2 super that was 24 ex. and it went up to 30 before i thought something was up.

Ill just have to pay more attention at lunch time and do another roll.

Edit:
I guess im asking What should i be feeling at the end of a roll with an M4. Should i not be able to advance at all?

emraphoto · 10-10-2012

Getting used to loading an M can be a bit of a process.

Try taking up all the film in the cassette before you load. Hold the leader and twist the post of the reel until there is tension. Then load. Make sure little teeth at lower right (looking at open back of camera) grab some sprockets when winding on once. Close it up and you should see the rewind post begin to turn a few rolls in (tension from finger winding will slack off a bit).

All the trim the leader and other M loading secrets can be dismissed on an M4 as those little teeth grab some sprocket holes. Leave the back open and advance a frame to make sure if need be.

emraphoto · 10-10-2012

PS the camera won't advance the film any further when you reach the end. After #25 or #37 just blow the last few until the end if it makes u more comfortable.

umcelinho · 10-10-2012

I usually get 39 frames per roll. just don't force the winding arm and you're good to go, you'll feel when it has ended

batey_1020 · 10-10-2012

Ok so ive had a closer look and have a feeling the last roll wasnt exposed and at some point its stoped winding on properly. Ill process it anyway at home and see.

I put a new roll in and wound on with the back open and watched it load properly for 2 frames or so to make sure. I then closed up and took 2 or 3 shots. After the 3rd i wound on and the rewind lever kind of shuddered and didnt wind on properly.
I the rewound slightly to tension is (only a fraction) and it then advanced fine. Its got me a little worried now. But ill slow down and take my time when im out shooting in my lunch break.

Thanks for all the help. Im sure ill work it out eventually.

batey_1020 · 10-10-2012

Ok so after having another look at lunch time here is what i have done.

I have checked the film is loading properly. Wound on a frame and watched the rewind leaver spin approximatley half a turn. So that seems all good (i have made sure the film is tensioned).

Put that base plate on and do another frame or 2 and watch the rewind leaver trun the same distance.

When i go to advance from here on it wont advance. it might take a small movement on the rewind lever like maybe 1/8 a turn or less.

My guess is that there isnt enouigh pressure to keep the perferations on the "cogs" to keep it advancing. Any ideas? Im starting to think this isnt opoprator error

Edit:
I can run through 4 or 5 exposures with the base plate off, back held in place and it advances fine every time. As soon as the base plate is on the rewind lever wont move but i can advace and then oporate the shutter.

Vickko · 10-10-2012

Sounds odd, that it won't wind when the baseplate is on.

The baseplate has a tulip shaped plastic part - does it spin freely? If it doesn't then it can stop the film from winding. The shutter will still work, but I bet you might be tearing the film at the holes.

batey_1020 · 10-10-2012

Hi Vickko, Yeah the tulip plastic bit spins freely. Its also not ripping any of the film holes.
I think im just going to have to find someone local to have a look at it.

Vickko · 10-10-2012

Okay, still sounds odd.

So, if I were to investigate, I am still puzzled that it works with the baseplate off. So, if that is the case, I'd check:

1. the film can end of the baseplate. This is where the lock dial is. Is it pressing up against the film can spool too much, and stopping it from turning? Or is it pushing the entire film can up, and causing too much friction?

Now that you know what the back flap does, try loading without the back flap and use your fingers to make sure the spool teeth pull the film and see if it still pulls with the baseplate on.

2. the film takeup end (the end with the tulip). The takeup three-slotted spool engages with the tulip, to grab the film end. Is it engaging properly? Or is the spool being pushed by the tulip? That spool has to slide slightly, to compensate for the diameter of the wound-up film getting larger. Is the spool slipping too much? Does putting on the bottom plate cause the spool to slip too much, and therefore not advance the film? There is a screw up the middle of that spool - see if it is tight.

Anyway, that's what I'd be investigating.

Morry Katz · 10-10-2012

Keeping the tension on the film at the start is tricky. Once the camera is closed the film in the cassette will unravel a bit, losing tension across the winding cogs, then tension is lost on the take up reel and the film comes loose. At least that is what kept happening to me and my m4. Cure: make a 1/4" fold on the end of the film, then it won't pull loose from the tulip and there will be enough tension in the system to advance the film. Try it. costs nothing. Hope it works for you.

batey_1020 · 10-10-2012

Ok well i worked out it was the take up spool slipping. So how much does it cost to replace the screw holding the take up spool. Went to tighten it since it was slipping and now its broken

So thats where the problem was.

I guess i better find another camera to shoot with for the weekend.

Vickko · 10-10-2012

um, okay

If you just want to replace the screw, contact Don at www.dagcamera.com He will sell you the part.

If you want an economical repair, contact Youxin Ye at http://www.yyecamera.com/

Biggest problem now is how to get the broken screw out.

batey_1020 · 10-10-2012

Yeah I know. Ill send it away and pay the price for my supidity. Thanks for helping work out the problem though. As soon as i saw what you said about the sppol everything clicked as to what was going on.

sanmich · 10-10-2012

Still not sure if anything was wrong.
the spool is supposed to slip a bit to correct for the film thickness (different radius at the beginning/end of film)
Loading an M is not very complicated, but if you do it wrong, you can repeatedly miss it.
it is important to see that the film holes are engaged in the camera sprockets (these are actually advancing the film) and the tulip should give enough traction to receive the film correctly. Personally I bend the film tip inwards (emulsion side) to get the film well seated in the tulip, then wind slightly until the sprockets engage, than close the camera, wind the film back, and see that for the next two blank shots, the film crank advances when I wind the film.
More generally, some traits of Leicas are a bit special.
A screwdriver is the last thing I would put in there before being absolutely sure that there is actually a problem and that I know how to solve it.
If the screw is broken with part of it stuck inside, I suggest to give the camera to a repair person.
Good luck!

batey_1020 · 10-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanmich

it is important to see that the film holes are engaged in the camera sprockets (these are actually advancing the film) and the tulip should give enough traction to receive the film correctly. Personally I bend the film tip inwards (emulsion side) to get the film well seated in the tulip, then wind slightly until the sprockets engage, than close the camera, wind the film back, and see that for the next two blank shots, the film crank advances when I wind the film.
Good luck!

My thoughts were this. If nothing was wrong how could i advance the firt 2 frames up to 0 watching the rewind lever. then moving onwards to about frame 4 from then on it wouldnt take up any more.
I actually opend the camera when this happend (wasnt worried about film) to see if the film was lined in sprockets. Which it was.

Not to worry now anyway.

daveywaugh · 10-10-2012

Hope the M4 issues get sorted. On a lighter note - the images in your folio are great!

sanmich · 10-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by batey_1020

My thoughts were this. If nothing was wrong how could i advance the firt 2 frames up to 0 watching the rewind lever. then moving onwards to about frame 4 from then on it wouldnt take up any more.
I actually opend the camera when this happend (wasnt worried about film) to see if the film was lined in sprockets. Which it was.

Not to worry now anyway.

Sorry, I may have missed the point.
does the film get stuck?
Or is it that you get passed the 38/39th picture, meaning that the film wasn't advancing at all?

Pablito · 10-10-2012

place the film in the camera with the leader inside the tulip. Make sure the cassette is properly seated and the film is aligned properly. DO NOT wind on with the back open. Replace the baseplate, THEN wind on. This is by far the best loading method, and it can be done in just a few seconds. Works flawlessly every time.

ottluuk · 10-10-2012

The rewind lever is not going to make full revolutions each time you wind on, it may move just slightly or not at all, depending how much slack has built up in the cassette. If you want to check mid-roll, you may tighten it slightly before you wind on (just turn it like rewinding, but don't touch the little clutch on the front - stop when you feel resistance). At least mine is like that and works well. Unless you are seeing problems on film, your camera was likely fine before you took a screwdriver to it.