Leica M8: Poor mans M Monochrome?

[jarski]

how would more IR-sensitive sensor (vs. newer) improve normal B&W conversions?

[cam]

Originally Posted by Gabriel M.A.

I think the Monochrome delivers awesome B&W files that when also post-processed properly have a very visible edge over the M8 at B&W.

curious about this, as most of my own Monochrom shots were at night in very low light (read: high ISO)... i found those images a breeze in PP.

but i do agree that lower ISO images on the Monochrom can look almost Medium format to my eyes... do you find that those need more finessing to achieve that look?

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by cam

i could care less about brick walls.

i'm much more interested in the opinion of people that have shot all three cameras in similar situations and, yes, that also have an affinity for black and white (rather than it being a novelty).

even then, it's all subjective.

but i find the opinion of people that go through the boredom of pouring over controlled testing subjective as well.

No one said anything about brick wall shooting. I'm just talking about shooting the same scene with each camera, no matter what the scene is.

I see this happen in lens comparisons all of the time. Someone will claim that one lens is way more "3D" than another lens, and then post a pic from each lens in entirely different lighting scenarios. One will have a natural rim light, making the subject pop, and the other will be in a flat lit situation, making the subject seem flat. With creative lighting, one can make any lens seem more "3D" than another.

I want to see someone with the M8, M9 and MM go out and shoot the same scenes with all three cameras, and then provide the raws for comparison. Then we may be able to start getting somewhere in comparing the three. Until then, it's all a dubious at best.

[noimmunity]

The Man Behind The Reeds by areality4all, on Flickr

[Gabriel M.A.]

Originally Posted by cam

curious about this, as most of my own Monochrom shots were at night in very low light (read: high ISO)... i found those images a breeze in PP.

but i do agree that lower ISO images on the Monochrom can look almost Medium format to my eyes... do you find that those need more finessing to achieve that look?

I only have a handful that I played with, most at anything over 1250.

Yeah, given a properly post-processed M8 file, if I give a file from the Monochrom the same attention, the Monochrom definitely wins. I wouldn't be surprised that when given it a "quick" processing, the same shot with same high ISO settings on both cameras, the Monochrom would win hands down in any read-over-lunch online review.

Anyway, that's why after I got these shots that I was even more dismayed that Leica decided to use some awfully-processed photos to introduce the camera. I really think that the same thought and care they put into engineering, that they could put into their editing and marketing department. Those photos they showed when they announced the camera are a technical fail. They may be nice to look at and surely they'd fetch thousands of dollars. But are not representative of what the Monochrom can do. Those photos could have been shot with my smartphone and made to look that way in post-processing.

But then again, reading intertoobes forum postings show that when extrapolation and speculation reign over actually knowing and showing what you're talking about --yes, the irony doesn't escape me when I'm not posting any photos; since I have not uploaded those shots because they're really crappy, I'm not going to go out of my way to post it here (posting photos directly to RFF is a major pain in the b.)

[mani]

Originally Posted by FrankS

After 57 posts, this is the first rational explanation given to support the OP.

What the hell? I mentioned the weak IR filter as the reason on the first page of the thread (post 18).
If you ARE actually interested in the topic (I'm beginning to suspect trolling) then get the back number of LFI I mentioned above: November 2010. The front cover headline: "M8 revisited - infrared sensitivity meets black & white: a good combination". There's 8 pages of explanation (with images) as to why the M8 is so great for b&w.
Naturally I don't expect anyone to actually go and buy this back number. Why bother getting real information when knee-jerk opinions and ignorance work just as well when discussing stuff on the net?

[FrankS]

Originally Posted by mani

What the hell? I mentioned the weak IR filter as the reason on the first page of the thread (post 18).
If you ARE actually interested in the topic (I'm beginning to suspect trolling) then get the back number of LFI I mentioned above: November 2010. The front cover headline: "M8 revisited - infrared sensitivity meets black & white: a good combination". There's 8 pages of explanation (with images) as to why the M8 is so great for b&w.
Naturally I don't expect anyone to actually go and buy this back number. Why bother getting real information when knee-jerk opinions and ignorance work just as well when discussing stuff on the net?

No need to get all hot and bothered. This is simply a discussion forum. My opinion based only on logic and reason (see post #2 - no horse in this race) is that the M8 does not produce Tecnically better results than the M mono. You have a different opinion. Fine. I'd like to see some proof one way or the other. Did the article you refer to do this comparison? No?

[mani]

Originally Posted by FrankS

No need to get all hot and bothered. This is simply a discussion forum. My opinion based only on logic and reason (see post #2 - no horse in this race) is that the M8 does not produce Tecnically better results than the M mono. You have a different opinion. Fine. I'd like to see some proof one way or the other. Did the article you refer to do this comparison? No?

Hey man - you're getting it all wrong AGAIN. You just don't bother actually listening to what's being said. NOWHERE do I say the M8 is technically better than the Monochrom. I'd expect the reverse. What I said is that it would be a more interesting comparison than the MM vs the M9.
Helluva hang-up you've got about this issue, bud.

[FrankS]

Originally Posted by mani

Hey man - you're getting it all wrong AGAIN. You just don't bother actually listening to what's being said. NOWHERE do I say the M8 is technically better than the Monochrom. I'd expect the reverse. What I said is that it would be a more interesting comparison than the MM vs the M9.
Helluva hang-up you've got about this issue, bud.

What was the topic of this thread? I'm thinking that I've stayed on topic and you've gone and changed it. You're doing a great job being argumentative when you actually agree with me.

[Rangefinderfreak]

I am waiting with interest when the "M" discussion about the video capabilities are starting.
In Photokina THAT was the biggest thrill to watch a video where a M shooter was following a model, talking and giving ideas for images and suddenly CLICK , you could hear the shutter and see the frozen image, in full clarity on the huge screen. Nothing like those fuzzy, bad YouTube flicks you usually see about a shoot...

[cam]

Originally Posted by Gabriel M.A.

I only have a handful that I played with, most at anything over 1250.

Yeah, given a properly post-processed M8 file, if I give a file from the Monochrom the same attention, the Monochrom definitely wins. I wouldn't be surprised that when given it a "quick" processing, the same shot with same high ISO settings on both cameras, the Monochrom would win hands down in any read-over-lunch online review.

Anyway, that's why after I got these shots that I was even more dismayed that Leica decided to use some awfully-processed photos to introduce the camera. I really think that the same thought and care they put into engineering, that they could put into their editing and marketing department. Those photos they showed when they announced the camera are a technical fail. They may be nice to look at and surely they'd fetch thousands of dollars. But are not representative of what the Monochrom can do. Those photos could have been shot with my smartphone and made to look that way in post-processing.

But then again, reading intertoobes forum postings show that when extrapolation and speculation reign over actually knowing and showing what you're talking about --yes, the irony doesn't escape me when I'm not posting any photos; since I have not uploaded those shots because they're really crappy, I'm not going to go out of my way to post it here (posting photos directly to RFF is a major pain in the b.)

thank you, Gabriel.

i agree with you about the way Leica launched and marketed the Monochrom. it is a far far better camera than what was shown. i really think the new team were already looking ahead and concentrating on the M and the M just got lost in translation.

even being given the chance to process someone else's images didn't properly give me the scope of the camera's capabilities. not did my first go at it, severely jet-lagged and in an unfamiliar place... my second go was in familiar places, ones that i had shot with the M8 and the M9 and it gave me a much better handle of how exquisite it really was.

not sure i got anything all that great either (and you're right, it's a pita to post) but it was enough to convince me i want one.

i, personally, am not fussed in the least that it doesn't do colour.

jealous of you, though, as i'd rather be back in Paris to shoot with it

[leicashot]

Still a waste of bandwidth, this thread

[cam]

Originally Posted by leicashot

Still a waste of bandwidth, this thread

i haven't been around here much, obviously, but i was interested in what Gabriel had to say. and i would have been interested with your thoughts as well, but i guess i missed that.

and i'd like to think maybe i helped somebody?

sorry i/we bored you.

but now i remember why i've been staying away from the forums.

[leicashot]

Originally Posted by cam

i haven't been around here much, obviously, but i was interested in what Gabriel had to say. and i would have been interested with your thoughts as well, but i guess i missed that.

and i'd like to think maybe i helped somebody?

sorry i/we bored you.

but now i remember why i've been staying away from the forums.

I wasn't referring to you Cam. I just think that when people become too heated and emotional, such topics dissipate into useless junk.

I don't have anything to say because I don't have comparisons and making assumptions always leads to problems. The OP made a good point to bring it up, but unfortunately not many MM owners will own an M8, let alone be bothered to take any meaningful comparisons....cause hopefully they care more about going and shooting meaningful work.

...so leave the reviewing and comparions to the professional reviewers....oh wait! Why would people even care considering how much they've all been ridiculed by this forum for giving the M Monochrom raving reviews - they must be all lying and can't be trusted then (sarcasm).

[gdi]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

M8 is a VERY good B&W camera....without a doubt better than the M9, and i wouldn't be surprised if it handles as good as the MM.

The really funny thing is that there would be plenty of doubt in your assertion...

I actually owned the M9 and M8 for years and never found that the M8 consistently produced"better" B&W images - other than IR images. Yes, they could sometimes have a nice look due particular the circumstances (low contrast scenes shot with low contrast images, in particular), but I found the higher resolution and many other adavantages of the M9 much preferable to the M8 capabilities.

You can't really rely on second hand web info in most cases; you have to see for yourself. Those who have been around will recall that when the M8 was introduced one of the biggest complaints was that it failed to match the R-D1 for B&W - that "conventional wisdom" has shifted since - perhaps due to more R-D1 owners being financially able to upgrade to the M8.

As for the M8 matching the Monochrom, I can't say for sure and likely will not be in a position to for a long time. If I shoot serious B&W, I simply prefer the advantages of film. But as others have said it is counter-intuitive that the M8 approaches the Monochrom. While I cannot cast doubt on the OP's Monochrom tests, since I have none of my own, I do know he is wholly wrong in stating that the M8 matches 6X9. I did detailed comparisons of actual prints of the M8 vs Mamiya 7 (a pitiful 6x7) and the M8 was soundly thrashed.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by mani

Hey man - you're getting it all wrong AGAIN. You just don't bother actually listening to what's being said. NOWHERE do I say the M8 is technically better than the Monochrom. I'd expect the reverse. What I said is that it would be a more interesting comparison than the MM vs the M9.
Helluva hang-up you've got about this issue, bud.

I have compared the MM against both the M9 and M8 as I own all three of them .For black and white I would rate them MM-gap-M8-M9.

[cam]

fair enough, Kristen. and, apologies, i really didn't mean to attack you (if it sounded that way)

i think the Monochrom is the bees knees and would have it in my hands if i had the money. it is the digital camera that has my name on it.

however, i gained a new appreciation (even though i always realised it) in b/w work for the M8 after getting quite a few prints professionally done from both the M8 and the M9. the one that really stood out (could have been subject matter as well, a portrait of my aunt on the canal in Amsterdam with beautiful fall light) was one from the M8 at base ISO.

i don't doubt that that the Monochrom can better it, but the tonality is definitely different. i accept that people have different likes/dislikes and may prefer one over the other. (though at higher ISO -- absolutely NO comparison!)

silly me.

[sepiareverb]

Originally Posted by jaapv

I have compared the MM against both the M9 and M8 as I own all three of them .For black and white I would rate them MM-gap-M8-M9.

Thank you. This puts the issue to rest for me. I know where you are coming from and can now forget the matter.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by leicashot

Let alone be bothered to take any meaningful comparisons....cause hopefully they care more about going and shooting meaningful work.

True that.

[leicashot]

No worries at all Cam. All good....I just wish people would not forget that if we were all in a room together we'd all be concentrating on enjoying each other's company, instead of trying to be correct over the next person.

Originally Posted by cam

fair enough, Kristen. and, apologies, i really didn't mean to attack you (if it sounded that way)

i think the Monochrom is the bees knees and would have it in my hands if i had the money. it is the digital camera that has my name on it.

however, i gained a new appreciation (even though i always realised it) in b/w work for the M8 after getting quite a few prints professionally done from both the M8 and the M9. the one that really stood out (could have been subject matter as well, a portrait of my aunt on the canal in Amsterdam with beautiful fall light) was one from the M8 at base ISO.

i don't doubt that that the Monochrom can better it, but the tonality is definitely different. i accept that people have different likes/dislikes and may prefer one over the other. (though at higher ISO -- absolutely NO comparison!)

silly me.

[ramosa]

Originally Posted by jaapv

I have compared the MM against both the M9 and M8 as I own all three of them .For black and white I would rate them MM-gap-M8-M9.

thanks for this comment. it really sums up the comparison well and serves as a useful bit of info per my future camera options.

[ramosa]

Originally Posted by leicashot

No worries at all Cam. All good....I just wish people would not forget that if we were all in a room together we'd all be concentrating on enjoying each other's company, instead of trying to be correct over the next person.

i like your comment. yea, the internet has its benefits AND detriments. when threads go haywire (and i mean much more than this one), it always seems people are treating others so differently than they would in person ... perhaps, because, while upsetting someone online can lead to an insulting return post, upsetting someone in person can lead to a fist/beer in the face. ah, life ...

[IEDEI]

none of this would have happened if people didn't get their panties in a twist about other people's valid opinions...

[mani]

Originally Posted by jaapv

I have compared the MM against both the M9 and M8 as I own all three of them .For black and white I would rate them MM-gap-M8-M9.

Thanks Jaap - that's what I thought would be the case.

The significance of these comparison threads isn't some stupid camera point-scoring, it's about helping people who can't afford a Monochrom to make the next-best purchase decision.

[Kingsfan]

so should i not use my uv/ir filters if i'm only shooting for b&w?