Decent Store-Bought Foam for Lightseals?

[mwoenv]

Deal with Jon on this - he's experienced, helpful, are charges are very reaonable.

I also recommend his battery adapter that uses inexpensive 675 hearing aid batteries for cameras that used the old mercury batteries.

[ColSebastianMoran]

Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran

5. For mirror damper foam for an SLR, I worry about using anything but the correct material. Order a light baffle kit of several thicknesses from Micro Tools, their part "LB-KIT." This material is also perfect for the original question, foam for door hinges.

Damn.

After posting, I decided to order this kit from Micro-Tools. It's not what I thought. The foam material is much stiffer and less compressible than the material which Jon Goodman includes in his kits. This looks to me to be the wrong material for mirror bumper or film-back grooves.

It might work for the seal right long the hinge, but even there the lack of compressibility is worrying.

As Jon mentioned above; this is not the material I remember from Micro-Tools.

[porktaco]

i bought a nice kit from jon a while back. i screwed up the install, but the kit was well made and not very expensive.

[Athos6]

I went to home depot and bought some window sealing foam with sticky backing. I used a sharp hobby knife to cut to size height and width wise and then pressed into place with tooth picks. Fast and dirty but the camera worked perfectly. I also tried felt once and found that it came apart when sliced into mm strips. The felt worked great for the broad hinge area though...

[PrecisionCamera]

Thanks for all the responses guys! I'm glad to see Mr. Goodman hopping on as well.

Gumby, as to your question on why I was asking - I had accidentally posted this under the PCV login rather than my personal. I am just curious to see how the DIYers on RFF go about it, and it seems to be an enlightening thread to say the least. Sorry if I spooked you a bit by posting under this login with a repairs question.

[Jon Goodman]

Thanks for all the nice and complimentary words, guys (and gals). As for foamies, the analysis was done by a friend connected with a university in this area. It was agreed that the work and author's name not be published.

In the world of foam, several industry measures are used to describe attributes. From these measures, a person schooled in these details can tell exactly what a foam will or won't be good for without ever seeing it. What seems like a minor aspect can make a major difference in how a foam performs for the intended use. It can be a complex bit of decision-making, all in all. I've said this before, and I'll repeat: the foam I sell is the very best foam I've seen for use in a camera since 1958...and I am passionate about excellence. It will not deteriorate nor become gummy, it has excellent ease of compression and rapid rebound, it will retain its attributes for at least 50 years and it is backed with the same adhesive NASA, Boeing and Daimler insist on (which costs me more than the foam itself, by the way). Small details...this adhesive is a sandwich. It has a middle section which resists stretching and a pure rubber adhesive applied to each side. So, the foam piece you get won't change shape when you remove the backing paper (which contains a generous bit of Teflon to make removal easier). Small details which add up to huge advantages.

It has always been a strange anomaly to me that people would use a cheap and in my opinion unfit product to repair a camera worth hundreds of dollars. At least I'll say I don't understand it, but whatever works for you is fine. You can use chewing gum or cut up old girdles and bras and jock straps for the elastic and re-seal cameras using them, and I'll defend your freedom to do it. I'll also defend your freedom to visit a witch doctor when you're having a heart attack, however I will tell you I think that is a very poor use of your brainpower.

So, this has been a wordy answer to the question about the work I did analyzing "foamies." If I found they were a good product to use in cameras, I'd have simply told that to the world and I would have stopped the work I was doing. But that would have been a complete lie. If you feel you need hard data, please send me an email and I'll give you scads of it.

Jon

[dave lackey]

This is too weird...but I had presumed from past threads and common knowledge that most RFF members used Jon's products!

Jon is the best around for this and I really enjoyed dealing with him in the past.

Some things just work, some don't...DAMHIK. BTDT. Good to have an expert as a member of RFF!

[Brian Legge]

I've purchased a bunch of kits from Jon in the past when I was doing work on cameras for friends who didn't want to deal with the installation process (though it is very simple).

I've been accumulating projects since you stopped selling on ebay Jon. I'll be placing an order with you soon. I'm glad to see you are still selling as I really didn't want to deal with finding replacement sources.

[Rune]

Another very satisfied customer of Jon here
His kits are working as advertised, and the level of service is something other vendors should aspire to.

[Jack Conrad]

You can use chewing gum or cut up old girdles and bras and jock straps for the elastic and re-seal cameras using them, and I'll defend your freedom to do it. I'll also defend your freedom to visit a witch doctor when you're having a heart attack, however I will tell you I think that is a very poor use of your brainpower.

Thanks for your awesome and heroic defense of my freedoms, John,
and rest assured, I will continue using foamie sheet material on my cameras.

[Jon Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jack Conrad

and rest assured, I will continue using foamie sheet material on my cameras.

That's good, Jack. Lemme ask you something...have you ever compared the foam I sell to foamies? If you haven't, please contact me with your address.
Jon

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by PrecisionCamera

Gumby, as to your question on why I was asking - I had accidentally posted this under the PCV login rather than my personal. I am just curious to see how the DIYers on RFF go about it, and it seems to be an enlightening thread to say the least. Sorry if I spooked you a bit by posting under this login with a repairs question.

No problem, and I'm not really spooked... just curious since your company provides professional services in that specific area. It is a good question and I totally agree that the range of opinion is interesting. It is every time the topic comes up!

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Jon Goodman

... I've said this before, and I'll repeat: the foam I sell is the very best foam I've seen for use in a camera since 1958...and I am passionate about excellence. ...

Hi Jon. There is no doubt about that. Please don't think that I would ever question your passion or the quality of your product. Given your fan base I assume that it is a quality product.

From how you write I'm assuming that you are an engineer. I not only can relate to that but respect it too.

From an engineering standpoint, though, though... let's face it... the camera light seal application is not as critical as a satellite, or rocket, or missile, or pacemaker. It just isn't, so some of what you so correctly discuss is overkill. So what if a light seal only lasts 10 years instead of 50?

From an engineering management perspective... I'm always skeptical (and with just cause) about contractors who proclaim to have analyses, data, or a magic bullet but don't provide the artifacts to substantiate their claim.

I understand that as a product vendor it is often difficult to protect one's intellectual property and trade secrets, but you must realize that as a professional peer and consumer claims of inferior alternatives sometimes sound like marketing hype when presented without verifiable data or a known independent analysis. I belive you when your say a buddy did an analysis but there is no way to know that it was done rigourously, etc, etc, etc. Had you said Underwriters Lab or Consumers Reports did the analysis then nobody would question it. But you know that already.

There is proof in the pudding... Foamies have been succesfully used by many for camera light seals (backs, not mirror bumpers) and they have both worked and lasted reasonable lengths of time.

From a marketing standpoint what you offer is very unique -- pre-cut with instructions for those who want that convenience or who do not otherwhis have the knowledge/skill to accomplish the repair. That is a good thing, and valuable to many.

Re: the hard data... I would appreciate if you sent some of it (the Foamie analysis particularly) to the email address on my RFF "send email to Gumby". If there is something I need to learn I surely would appreciate learning it!

Best of luck to you.

[Jon Goodman]

Originally Posted by Gumby

I assume that it is a quality product.

Wait. Wait just a minute, amigo...you've never seen it? You've never seen my foam nor felt it and you are considering yourself a "professional peer" and are implying foamies are the answer? Seriously? Please send me your address. Please let me help you folks at least be armed with knowledge.

Jon

[farlymac]

I wasn't questioning the quality of your product, Jon, when I said I was going to order some from Micro-Tools. It's just that I've got so many cameras that need seals, I thought I'de save a bit and get it in bulk. But they were always out of one size or another, and I wanted a multi pack to cover all the bases.

But after reading your explanations about the product, I'll be ordering kits again from you as the budget allows. I was very happy with the first one, and figure the rest will be the same.

PF

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Jon Goodman

Wait. Wait just a minute, amigo...you've never seen it? You've never seen my foam nor felt it and you are considering yourself a "professional peer" and are implying foamies are the answer? Seriously? Please send me your address. Please let me help you folks at least be armed with knowledge.

Jon

Jon (amigo)... No, I have not seen your foam. That does not mean that I have not seen other foam products and specs and formed a valid opinion based on those experiences. I have used a variety of foam products and found that Foamies works fine. So, yes, I consider myself a professional peer but one who can always learn more. As I said, I believe you have a good product. I have no reason to doubt that. I do not believe, however, that you have the one and only solution to this particular application. As you know... that is not an unusual occurance in an engineering environment. By the way, I am not "implying" anything. I have stated clearly that I have used Foamies very successfully for door sealing applications and that experience has been proven by approx 10 years of regular usage. Please notice that I'm not slamming your product. I'm simply sharing my experiences and successes with another alternative solution. You do not have to take me on as your challenge to educate... I am quite educated already. You have your knowledge, experience, and bias... as do I. It's no big deal, and it certainly isn't personal (at least with me it isn't). Peace "amigo".

[Jon Goodman]

Ed, the foam sold by other people does not matter to me. I have seen it, and most of it (honestly speaking) is unfit for use in anything as precisely designed as a camera. In my opinion the people selling this know very little about cameras and camera sealing, and most of what they do know they've learned by reading what I've written. Now to say you can't use it would not be true, but in any situation (and this includes any educational or engineering discipline) there will be solutions which are merely acceptable and then there will be solutions which are best. It has been my experience these "best" solutions are invariably discovered by the people who are open-minded thinkers. It does not always mean they were the most intelligent people involved in any given project or situation. It does however always mean they considered as many alternatives as they could and then chose the one which was the best. Hopefully I'm not digging up new ground here...I think we all do this in everyday life, don't we? If you go to the grocery store tasked with purchasing olive oil and the grocer has 6 different kinds at 6 different prices, you'll have to make a decision based on which seems the best, right? And if you simply purchase the least expensive one, your wife may educate you about the fine points of olive oil when you return home. And the next time you're sent to the store (which could be in just a few minutes), you'll probably be a more open-minded consumer and you'll definitely understand the importance of knowledge...did she want extra virgin oil, did she want light oil, did she want oil with more or less natural flavor, Italian, Spanish...what exactly will make her the happiest?

Your camera was designed by very intelligent people to exacting specifications. Small changes can spell large problems and "shade tree" solutions never entered into these people's heads when your camera was designed. If you want an example of how a tiny change can affect a camera, remove the lens mount and place a single piece of paper shim under one side of it...just on one side of it...and then replace the mount, tighten it and go take some pictures. Or remove one resistor from the metering circuit. Substitute a different resistor which has a value 2 times higher than the original and see how your meter works now. It is no different in an automobile. If you were to rebuild an auto engine, you would notice in the shop manual a very specific end gap for the piston rings. This is important and all mechanics know why. Too small and when the rings get hot and expand they're at risk of breaking or seizing in the cylinder and too large and the engine will suffer a problem known as "blow-by" where exhaust gasses are forced past the rings and down into the crankcase.

If you have a camera like an Olympus XA, the body to film door gap was designed to be 1mm. What if you have a Nikon FM, FM2, FE, FA or an Olympus OM-1, OM-2, OM-3, OM-4 or a Minolta Hi-Matic 7 or 9 or 11 or a Konica Auto S2 or scads of other makes / models I won't bother to mention? What are those clearances? 1mm (or less in some cases). In the instructions I've written (which have been plagiarized by sellers who either don't know enough about the subject or are too lazy to write their own), I explain to everyone how to safely and accurately determine the thickness needed between your film door and camera body (or any other two things you can not easily measure nor see). This is a very old technique, and it will work on lots of things. Anyone educated in mechanical engineering knows it. Please read the file named "Small Seal" here: http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/seal/SmallSeal.pdf If your camera was designed for a foam or seal that is 1mm or less in thickness, why would you want to try to use a foam which is too dense and has limited compressibility...and which is 2mm thick? If you had a Ferrari, would you put tractor tires on it just because they were less expensive?

What I'm suggesting is to look at the foam (and fabric seals) I sell and consider it may be the best alternative. I am happy to send samples at my expense. But I'll need an address...
Jon

[Gumby]

Jon, Thanks again for the tutorial information and the offer for samples. I appreciate your time and concern. I really am on top of both material sciences and engineering/manufacturing practices/tolerances. Perhaps we should exchange resumes at some point so we don't keep talking AT each other.

As I repeatedly have said, I have much respect for you, your product and especially your instructions. There are many people who want/need that type of product. I really am happy for you. I appreciate your passion for your product too... it is very impressive.

In terms of your kind offer, I really appreciate it but would much rather see the analysis of the Foamie product that you mentioned. It sounds very interesting. If you can support that request, you can send it to me using the "mail to Gumby" feature of RFF.

[Gumby]

p.s. I'm familiar with your instructions, etc -- having seen them at kyphoto.com quite some time ago. They are very comprehensive.

[Jon Goodman]

Thanks very much, Ed. I appreciate the compliment and the support. I do think you (or anyone who is at all curious) should see the foam.

As for the work which was done for me, the person asked and I promised that his work not be shared. Sorry if this was unclear. He and I have been friends for decades. I'm sure you'll understand.


Jon

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Jon Goodman

As for the work which was done for me, the person asked and I promised that his work not be shared. Sorry if this was unclear. He and I have been friends for decades. I'm sure you'll understand.

OK, I can live with that but, no, I don't really understand. Claims without proof are unsubtantiated, and unsubstatiated claims made by a vendor that are critical of other vendors products are, um, sales hype, not valid information/data. But I'll not belabor this issue any more.

Fortunate for your business your product speaks for itself based on customer feedback and referrals.

[Gumby]

Fred, I bowed out of this discussion... but let me comment on on e thing I haven't before. Regarding 1 mm thick foam vs 2 mm thick foam -- they are not interchangable as Jon and you so accurately say, but foam can be easily cut in three different dimensions.