Zeiss Ikon Folder from wife's Granddad

djonesii · 07-31-2011

Dear all;

I've been a shooting range finders for a while now, and some of you may even remember some of my posts. I've shot with four different MF format range finders now, the Bronica 645, Fuji GA645, Fuji 645ZI, and now the Zeiss Ikon.

The Zess was my wife's Grandfathers camera, and as near as I can tell, it has had a quite interesting family history. The lore goes that it was purchased in Abutabadd India ( before independence ) before the war ( this one being WWII). It then traveled with George Carter through the war, all over India, back to the UK, (Sussex) and then after his passing to his son Jeremy. From London with him, to Belgium, Paris, and finally its resting place in Brittany France. I married George's granddaughter! The family knows of my interest in photography, and after a decade of marriage ( seems like it will stick now) The camera was given to me. It then traveled to Houston TX. I cleaned it up a bit, and here are the results:

I think that it was designed to shoot 127 film, but as I happen to have some 120 Iflord Delta Pro on hand, and got the following images:

With Epson V700 scanner

After the first roll, I have a few questions:

Spacing was horrible, lost about 1/2 the negatives. What is the best method, open window and until counter on backing is correct, trust the red dot ???

Is it really 127? If so, is there are source for this, or should I just live with the 120??

There are a few places where the enamel (??) has chipped of the metal, and a bit of rust, should I worry? At the snaps, the enamel has chipped off, but no rust.

The spring at the take up spool has a bit of "gook" around it, any ideas on a safe cleaning method?

In the first shots, I gave the finder/aperture bit of a film test, and the shutter seems pretty reasonable.

A quick scan on E-bay shows that this camera does not have significant value, but if I did want to get a CLA, any ideas who could do something like this?

Finally, has anyone found a good film that would be representative of the pre WWII B&W emulsions?

As near as can tell from the photos that George took, this was the point and shoot of the day, one last photo just for comparison:

Thanks for the help.

Dave

sevo · 07-31-2011

If it were 127, you'd have to cut off one third of a 120 spool to get it in - 127 is 4 rather than 6cm wide. Should be 120 - unless ZI exported 620 to some places abroad?

The camera seems to be a 6x4.5 Ikonta A, but we might need some more details to place it by year - in doubt, there should be a model number embossed on the body. There should be two red windows on the body and you'd have to wind on to have the film number alternately show in the first and second window - it uses the 9cm markings.

djonesii · 07-31-2011

My father in law mentioned 127, clearly 120 as that fits in.

Number embossed on case is 1798

Dave

jnoir · 08-01-2011

There should be some numbers embossed in one side of the leatherette, helping you to identify the model number. I'd say you have an Ikonta A 521, 6x4.5, but it's hard to say with just a couple of pictures.

Ikontas were made for 120 film (models A, B and C) and the much larger 616 (model D), only the Baby Ikonta took 127 film, but I'd say yours is not a Baby Ikonta (as others have mentioned, 127 film is smaller and therefore 120 film would not have fit in the camera if it were a Baby)

Film advance is done via the ruby window in the rear door. You must align each number from the film's backing paper to the first window, then close the cover to minimiza the possibility of light leaks, and after taking the picture advance the number to the second ruby window. The "red dot" is a simple double exposure prevention mechanism, it is unrelated to the advance in that you need far less turns of the wheel to disable the double exposure lock that to align the next number with the window. Use the red dot simply as a reminder if you have already advanced your film or not before an exposure. Nevertheless, it is a good practice to advance the film only right before taking the picture, to help keep the film flat.

I'll need more details about the issue with the take up spool.

I have CLAd a few dozens of folders, Ikontas are easy to service, I'd take the work but I'm based in Europe. Plenty of skilled people in the US.

About films, try those Foma / Efke: supposedly the emulsion has not changed a lot since the '50s...

RichL · 08-01-2011

Yes, use the window. The red/black dots are part of the double exposure prevention assembly.

My personal suggestion for repair is a man here in Portland by the name of Mark Hansen. Send him an email about the camera and he'll give you a ball park estimate. If you choose to send it to him he will check it out then send you his new estimate and wait for your approval before going any further. I've had one camera repaired by him and it is absolutely perfect, I've seen a couple others and they are good also.

http://www.zeissikonrolleirepair.com/contact.html

djonesii · 08-01-2011

Thanks for all the help. As usual a friendly lot here at RFF.

I've contacted Classic Camera Repair for a quote on a CLA, seems to be a great resource.

The info on the red dot being a double exposure guide is most helpful.

As to two red windows, I'm pretty sure I only have one, and this photo kind of confirms that.

Am I missing something?

Thanks again.

Dave

sevo · 08-01-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by djonesii

As to two red windows, I'm pretty sure I only have one, and this photo kind of confirms that.
Am I missing something?

No - but it seems the camera might be a bit younger than I expected. At some time (presumably in the late thirties) they added a 4.5cm sequence to the backing paper, opposite the 9cm one, and newer cameras dropped the obsolete second window.

RichL · 08-01-2011

You're good to go. (2 windows is how 127 film advances 1/2 frame. ) Your's is a 120 and the window at the top will give you the proper sequence for 16 shots.

djonesii · 08-02-2011

Got a reply back from Mark, very reasonable price for a shutter and transport CLA, will be shipping camera soon.

Did verify, it is one window, and I see exactly how it works.

Any ideas on where to get a flash sync cable for this model? I does not seem to be a normal PC cord as the shutter side is just a bit big, or the PC side is just a bit small.

Dave

puderse · 08-02-2011

I bought one of these with a Novar at a garage sale a couple of years ago. I was blown away by the results! It is in my avitar.

RichL · 08-02-2011

Try a regular pc connector on it and if that doesn't work Ask Mark :-). Once upon a time there was an American standard and a European standard for flash terminals. When the European (pc) standard won out various adapters were made to convert from American to the European style. It looks like you may have one of those.

djonesii · 08-04-2011

There were two numbers on the body:

Ikonta 521, which I would guess is the model

Serial no P59161*

I have been out on Google, and can't seem to better define the year, any ideas?

Thanks;

Dave

FrankS · 08-04-2011

Great story of the journey that camera made to eventually end up in your hands. With a CLA it can become a functional family heirloom.

djonesii · 08-04-2011

Dear all;

A bit more googling with a different set of search terms ....

http://www.davidrichert.com/age_model_.htm

And I find this table that seems to point to 1940.

Any thoughts ...

Camera shipped to Mark for CLA!

Dave

RichL · 08-04-2011

Probably a typo. That lens came as a 3.5 or 4.5. You might consider joining the Zeiss Icon Collectors Group on Yahoo. If no one there knows the answer they can probably point the way. http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/ZI...&sec=dir&slk=4

djonesii · 08-31-2011

As above, I sent the camera off to Mark.

He has been great to deal with. I've got a project to photograph all the Children/Grand Children/Great Grand Children with this camera.

Very Sadly, it looks like I will not get to photograph the original owners wife with the camera as her health has taken a turn for the worse. At 101, she had a great run though!

On the other hand, there are many photos in the family archive that were taken with this little gem.

Dave

graywolf · 08-31-2011

With the single window on top rather than two on the bottom of the back, and flash sync that camera is not from the 1930's, it is post WWII, probably post 1950. That is if the sync and the back are original, sometimes people had their cameras updated. But it is far more likely the the old folk misremembered when they got it.

RichL · 08-31-2011

Dave Glad things worked out with the camera. You should post a couple more pictures from it so for a before and after comparison. Rich L

oftheherd · 08-31-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by djonesii

As above, I sent the camera off to Mark.

He has been great to deal with. I've got a project to photograph all the Children/Grand Children/Great Grand Children with this camera.

Very Sadly, it looks like I will not get to photograph the original owners wife with the camera as her health has taken a turn for the worse. At 101, she had a great run though!

On the other hand, there are many photos in the family archive that were taken with this little gem.

Dave

Glad it's on its way back. I am sure you are going to enjoy using it. I have several old folders and really like them. They take better photos than you might assume from their age.

I certainly hope the owner's wife has or does get better. Get some shots with a more modern camera if possible anyway. i bet she is a grand old lady to have survived so long. Looking forward to seeing your photos with the camera and hearing if you enjoy using it.

Nikon Bob · 08-31-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by djonesii

Dear all;

A bit more googling with a different set of search terms ....

http://www.davidrichert.com/age_model_.htm

And I find this table that seems to point to 1940.

Any thoughts ...

Camera shipped to Mark for CLA!

Dave

I would take the list as a rough guide. I have an Ikonta marked 521/16 (6x6) with a 75cm/f4.5 uncoated Novar-Anastigmat and a Klio shutter. I believe the camera was made prior to 17 Sept 1939 as that was the date on a silver presentation plaque attached to the back of the camera. This camera does not exist according to the list in the link. It could well be that the history as given is true. Regardless, it will be very nice for you to be able to use a piece of family history. I don't think you will be disappointed with the results.

Bob

graywolf · 08-31-2011

I would say that table is suspect. Models of the same series usually came out within a year or so of each other.

It does not really matter when they bought that particular camera, likely at least 60 years ago, but that it did belong to them and it surely is a family heirloom. Enjoy it, and remember all the happy memories that must have went with it.

hanskerensky · 09-02-2011

Some Ikonta folders like i.e. the 521/16 were produced during a long time period (1937~1953).

Production of the 521 probably started in 1938

I also saw a japanese webpage with a 521 which was stated as produced in 1948. Its serial number also started with the letter P. and it also has a Novar 1: 4,5 7,5cm lens. Have a look here :

http://www005.upp.so-net.ne.jp/chatv...ikonta521.html

Ikonta's are nice and good quality cameras and many of them are still used actively today by enthousiasts.

farlymac · 09-09-2011

As with anything Zeiss folder, it's hard to pin down a production date because they made so many variations of each model. Over the time span of the Ikonta A manufacture, there were at least three lenses, and four shutters available, and Zeiss would make a camera with any combination in order to hit a price point. So a lot of the production charts out there will have vagaries that can't be explained except by the maker of the chart going by surmised information.

I have a 520 Ikomat that is very similar, but has the two-window back, and lacks the double exposure preventer (introduced on the Ikonta). It also has a Zeiss Tessar lens in a Compur Rapid. And I am in the process of overhauling a 521/2 which has the preventer, and have found you can overide it by pushing with a finger the paddle actuator at the front of the camera (just in case you really want to do a double exposure). It's also a bit smoother release doing it that way, instead of relying on the multi-link action.

PF

jnoir · 09-10-2011

With old folders, one can override the double exposure prevention as you discovered (but this may make harder keeping the camera stable) or, if it has the capability to receive a cable release, by using it.

djonesii · 09-25-2011

I have scanned the first roll, and I need to review what I did, and shoot another.

The results are such that I really don't want to share them. I shoot pretty fast, and did not take full metering into account, and learned a bit about that red window.

more to follow ......