An unusual Sonnar

[Dez]

I recently got a Sonnar 50mm f1.5 that I cannot understand. Here is a picture of four different versions of this lens.



Please excuse the crummy photo.

At the right rear is a typical prewar uncoated lens, with "Carl Zeiss Jena" on the ring.

The lens at the left rear is a typical coated postwar Jena lens in an aluminum mount, also saying "Carl Zeiss Jena".

At the front right is a West German Zeiss-Opton version, in a brass mount, coated, but with no red T on the ring. I had thought these always had the T, but I'm no expert. The serial number is in the 1.1 million range.

The left front one is strange to me. It is a coated lens, in a brass mount that seems almost identical with the Opton version. Like the Opton, it has "Made in Germany" engraved on the barrel. But the ring just says "Carl Zeiss". No Jena, no T. It has a serial number in the 1.4 million range, which according to some references puts its manufacture at 1933, which is clearly not the case. It would seem to be a tiny bit more finely machined than the Opton, and the engraving is mabye a bit thinner, although the same font as the Opton. The rear ring is a bit narrower than the one on the Opton. Although these things move around, I received this lens on a Contax III dated 1939.

I would greatly appreciate any information available on this unusual fourth version.

Thanks,

Dez

[enasniearth]

I think from memory that the fourth lens is later , postwar lens were first marked zeiss opton then , reverted to Carl zeiss ( no jena ) Think the t was left off as all buyers knew lenses were coated in late production .

[dexdog]

I concur with eniasearth re the Carl Zeiss lens, no T

[Dez]

Thank you. That certainly sounds reasonable, given the similarity to the Opton version and the higher serial number. I'm reminded of Nikon's removal of the C on their lenses when it became obvious.

Cheers,
Dez

[sparrow6224]

The fourth lens is three hundred some odd thousand down the line from the third, "Opton" lens. That's the million series you should be looking in. The West German Zeiss stopped using the Opton at some point, and also stopped using the T. So a simple Carl Zeiss with serial numbers over 1million are West German lenses from the 1950s.

[sparrow6224]

Now your task is to post pics from all of them so we can kibbutz about the differences....

[Bill Jones]

Carl Zeiss West Germany cahnged the brand name on their lenses from Zeiss Opton to Carl Zeiss and stopped using the red T in 1954 at the same time they introduced the Biogon 21mm lens. This was the time of the final split from Carl Zess Jena. Prior to that tmie there was a lot of cooperation between the 2 Carl Zeiss sides.

[xayraa33]

I believe those later made West German Carl Zeiss f1.5 Sonnars are more prone to element separation as Zeiss used a different balsam type adhesive in assembling the elements on these later lenses.

[jim_buchanan]

OK, I'm confused. I am trying to date a Sonnar-S with #1978xxx. The only reference I have shows around 1937 manufacture. The front left, 4th lens above has #1442xxx, and my reference shows 1933. They both appear to look the same with just "Carl Zeiss" and no "T".

This thread implies that these are 1950s lenses. Did the numbers start over after the war?

[S.H.]

Yes : Zeiss-Opton (in postwar West Germany) restarted the numbers, and was then renamed Carl Zeiss around 1953 (for lenses).

[sevo]

Originally Posted by jim_buchanan

This thread implies that these are 1950s lenses. Did the numbers start over after the war?

Yes. The West German Zeiss Oberkochen (Opton, Carl Zeiss) started a new, separate numbering in 1946, apparently beginning with 10,000.

Carl Zeiss Jena continued the old numbering until about 1980, by which time they had (nominally - their assigned numbers system left plenty of gaps and some late lenses still were in the 7-9 million range as the production trailed behind the assignments) hit the 11,000,000 mark and reset to 0. But by then, Pentacon/Praktica had become the joint label used on GDR consumer lenses, so that late four digit numbers on GDR CZJ lenses are pretty much restricted to a small number of technical and large format lenses.

[satedesco]

post war west german branding goes

zeiss-opton red T earliest 50mm 1.5's i have seen in this series are in the 80,000 range.

zeiss-opton no red T these are sometimes in concurrent numbering batches as red T's. i have seen some later sonnars with the t's and earlier without. it is supposed that all of these lenses were still using balsam cement, but i have found some with the yellow halo leading me to believe some of these used the new epoxy bonding- the material with a reputation for failing and causing concer with the series below.- see below.

carl zeiss - last lettering. all of these are suppossed to use the modern epoxy instead of balsam and have a reputation for separation. i have had one separated one, but many fine ones. also these tend to have a slight yellow halo on the outside edge of some of the interior elements. henry scherer has suggested that this is the blacking paint bleeding into the epoxy. in any event i have shot color with these and never seen any effect. some people mistake this for separation. this epoxy doomed an incredible amount of contaflex pro-tessars. it is hard to find these lage element accessory wides and teles without separation.

just some observations.

[sevo]

Originally Posted by satedesco

carl zeiss - last lettering. all of these are suppossed to use the modern epoxy instead of balsam and have a reputation for separation.

Going by their repair manuals, Opton lenses already used a three-part epoxy - it is rather unlikely that they later went back and forward between balsam and epoxy. The separation is more likely due to a switch in synthetic cement technologies or suppliers.

[jim_buchanan]

Thanks, for your replies.

So, is it a fact that pre-War and War time Sonnars were all labeled "Carl Zeiss Jena"?

Then, post-War Sonnars labeled "Carl Zeiss Opton", and finally subsequent Sonnars labeled simply "Carl Zeiss"?

Or were there some Sonnars made thru the end of the 1930's labeled "Carl Zeiss"?

[sevo]

Originally Posted by jim_buchanan

So, is it a fact that pre-War and War time Sonnars were all labeled "Carl Zeiss Jena"?

Yes, as far as Contax Sonnars are concerned. YMMV with other lenses, with only one Carl Zeiss about in pre war years there was no need to make a distinction (Jena as part of the brand name was a matter of reputation, an allusion to their academic origin), and they dropped the location first whenever there was not enough space on the rim - I certainly have seen plenty of diminutive pre war "Carl Zeiss" only Tessars. Don't know about Sonnars, but some were made in 16mm cine focal lengths and mounts, where the same might apply...

Originally Posted by jim_buchanan

Then, post-War Sonnars labeled "Carl Zeiss Opton", and finally subsequent Sonnars labeled simply "Carl Zeiss"?

No. The GDR branch in Jena continued production as Carl Zeiss Jena (in more recent times when they weren't making Contax lenses any more they had to strip any reference to Zeiss from their Western exports - later SLR lenses often were branded "aus Jena" or "Jena"). The Western branch that set up in Oberkochen after the war first used "Opton", then "Carl Zeiss" - occasionally "Carl Zeiss Oberkochen", "Zeiss Opton" and the like show up as well, probably while they'd already gone off Opton within Western Germany, on exports to countries where the local name rights still were in dispute.

[jim_buchanan]

So, here is a "Carl Zeiss" #1,8xx,xxx Sonnar. Was it made in the mid-30's or mid-50's? It appears to be un-coated. Seems the 1950's lenses would all be coated.

[sevo]

Originally Posted by jim_buchanan

So, here is a "Carl Zeiss" #1,8xx,xxx Sonnar. Was it made in the mid-30's or mid-50's? It appears to be un-coated. Seems the 1950's lenses would all be coated.

By black cell rim, post-war location of aperture scale and lack of "Jena", it is 50's, and highly unlikely to be a 1936 lens (the other date matching that serial) unless someone back then built a design prototype realized not until a decade later. Besides (and not visible here), pre (and immediate post) war Jena lenses are 5cm engraved, Opton and later lenses use 50mm.

Maybe the coating is hard to see (later coatings have a less obvious tint to their reflection) or it was a uncoated lens for UV or IR photography - most makers could/can supply these on special order, as coatings will merely reduce the UV/IR transmission while losing all their benefits in non-visible light. Or the cells have been replaced by pre-war ones - there are some odd Frankenlenses about...

[jim_buchanan]

Thanks, so much. I think I'm getting the hang of it, now, and also realized I've let a few choice ones get away.