Shaping up the Leica M10 and beyond…

[BobYIL]

Photokina 2012 (September 18-23) is approaching. Nothing is certain yet, however if something from Solms is going to be introduced as “innovative” this year, most certainly it would be the new M10. According to British Journal of Photography Dr. Kaufmann “hinted that it will introduce high-definition video recording features with its long-awaited M10 camera at Photokina this September.” This hints further that the new sensor would certainly be a CMOS of the newest generation.

Another interesting “hint” came from Stefan Daniel (Director Product Management at Leica Camera AG) on the optical vs. digital viewfinder:

"I think that the quality of the 1.4MP finders is already very good, and sometimes even more accurate than an optical finder, think of white balance or exposure. Over time, as technology is improving, optical finders will get less and less important. The X100 finder is a very nice concept and well executed". Quite remarkable, right?

Anyway, assuming that the new camera will feature a full frame-CMOS sensor (hopefully the new version developed for the Sony A99 and Nikon D600); what could be the “superiorities” over the M9?

- 24.7 MP

- Very high sensitivity: ISO 100-6400, possible extension up to 25.600; very usable pictures at ISO 6400 as standard.

- over 2-stops more Dynamic Range (great feature, more hues on color tones, much better shadow recovery, far better B&W pictures with longer gradations.)

- Live view: Exact framing, precise focusing independent of the rangefinder (even when the rangefinder needs calibration), better control of the exposure parameters “on picture”. (This feature would naturally require a current hi-res LCD display as on many DSLRs.)

- Use almost any lens existing, RF or SLR, from fish-eye up to 1600mm! Adapters are ready on the market..

- HD video (definitely a plus feature for pros and PJs, possibly for some of us too..)


IMHO, such a drastic move to CMOS technology would also contribute the Leica lenses to reveal their excellent characteristics better than what they do on the CCD sensors. Professionals needing exact framing will not refrain to buy the M10.. photojournalists would love to use the hi-ISO and switching to video whenever needed.. We amateurs would get outstanding color as well as B&W photos by using only one body..

My engineering side tells me that the processing “portion” of the project would get much benefit from this switchover too as all the 6th generation Fujitsu EI-15x series processor engines have been designed in accordance with the up-to-date CMOS sensor technology. Firmware as well as software upgrading scope would improve too.

BTW, I would love to hear your comments on the subject.


Links:

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-jo...#ixzz1xTmKgv5I

http://www.megapixel.co.il/english/archive/23834

[Viktor Sebastian]

If any of this pans out I will get an M9. I have no interest in a leica priced Panasonic GH2/Sony Nex 7.

[gavinlg]

Originally Posted by Viktor Sebastian

If any of this pans out I will get an M9.

Seconded. I barely care about the m10. Just waiting till I can get my hands on an M9 within my budget.

[Keith]

Your projected M10 sounds like a two kidney camera to me!

It wouldn't surprise me if it all happened though ... the current digital M, as good as it is, does need to compete in several areas if it's to remain viable outside it's current fan base. There's a lot more tasty opposition out there than there was at the release of the M9.

[Viktor Sebastian]

Originally Posted by gavinlg

Just waiting till I can get my hands on an M9 within my budget.

Exactly!

[swoop]

I just need a higher ISO with noise. 6400 would be perfect. A faster buffer would be much appreciated. And a rear LCD with a bit more resolution and clarity. That's all that's on my M10 wishlist. And $7k was hard enough to come up with for the M9, I just hope they don't do another price bump.

[Keith]

Some of you lot really don't want Leica to go forward as a company do you?

Some complain because the cameras are just constantly the 'same old same old' ... and the rest complain because the 'same old same old' is all they want and to hell with innovation!

[jalLee2001]

They might keep both in production. After all the new m9 M is going to be around for a while.

[dct]

Originally Posted by BobYIL

Photokina 2012 (September 18-23) is approaching. Nothing is certain yet, however if something from Solms is going to be introduced as “innovative” this year, most certainly it would be the new M10. According to British Journal of Photography [...] Stefan Daniel (Director Product Management at Leica Camera AG) on the optical vs. digital viewfinder:

[...]

What did we debate a few weeks ago in another thread? The more I read and think about the possible steps forward an M10 could make, compared to an M9, the more I'm 90 % sure it will have some sort of AF to allow AF lenses. Perhaps mixed with a much better hybrid solution than the X-Pro1 to still support manual lenses: Heavenly!

But many of us sticking on the optical RF patch measurement will not be amused...

[LCT]

Originally Posted by dct

...the more I'm 90 % sure it will have some sort of AF to allow AF lenses...

I would not hold my breath. AF is another world. Will be for the next Leica EVIL i guess. But the M10 will remain an M i.e. a rangefinder or will never be born IMHO.

[BobYIL]

"Another interesting “hint” came from Stefan Daniel (Director Product Management at Leica Camera AG) on the optical vs. digital viewfinder:

"I think that the quality of the 1.4MP finders is already very good, and sometimes even more accurate than an optical finder, think of white balance or exposure. Over time, as technology is improving, optical finders will get less and less important. The X100 finder is a very nice concept and well executed". Quite remarkable, right?"

*********************************************

Regarding Stefan Daniel's above statement, I think Leica is planning to employ a composite (or hybrid) finder, most probably not on the M10 but rather on the "second project"; i.e. a newly designed body from scratch involving the use of APS-C size CMOS with -probably-AF lenses designed to cover the crop size circle of illumination.

Just my humble opinion of course.. as it might take some long months if not years to introduce a new series of lenses especially with AF feature, as the majority of the existing formulas might not be suitable for micromotor movements.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by LCT

I would not hold my breath. AF is another world. Will be for the next Leica EVIL i guess. But the M10 will remain an M i.e. a rangefinder or will never be born IMHO.

I'd have to agree with this...

[Paul Luscher]

Hmmm...depending on the M10's price, I might just stick with the Olympus EM-5. Would seem to have all the advantages of a rangefinder--small size, quiet operation-- plus high ISOs and a hell of a lot of good features,for about a fraction of the price an M10 is likely to cost.

[furcafe]

Pretty much the same for me. I wouldn't mind live view for the occasional macro & studio-type work. This would leave room for new lenses w/close-focus capability like the old 50mm Kodak Ektra & Nikon LTM lenses. Leica could expand into a whole new line of such lenses (imagine how much they could charge for the "new dual-range"). The only other things I wish for are the option for a higher-magnification VF & a VF w/the ability to display both the metering arrows/dot and the shutter speed when shooting manual. I don't believe for a second that the M10 will be less than $9K.

Originally Posted by swoop

I just need a higher ISO with noise. 6400 would be perfect. A faster buffer would be much appreciated. And a rear LCD with a bit more resolution and clarity. That's all that's on my M10 wishlist. And $7k was hard enough to come up with for the M9, I just hope they don't do another price bump.

[loquax ludens]

Originally Posted by Keith

Your projected M10 sounds like a two kidney camera to me!

It wouldn't surprise me if it all happened though ... the current digital M, as good as it is, does need to compete in several areas if it's to remain viable outside it's current fan base. There's a lot more tasty opposition out there than there was at the release of the M9.

All Leica has to do to truly compete is cut their digital camera prices by about 50%. That'll put them in "competition".

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by loquax ludens

All Leica has to do to truly compete is cut their digital camera prices by about 50%. That'll put them in "competition".

That'll put em in competition with consumer brands and take them out of the luxury space. Not such a good idea for Leica probably. They will not win the volume wars.

[Monochrom]

Hi, i´ll taylor up my own m10.

23 Mp or more....
more dynamic range
no liveview
real quiet shutter

And above all diferences between the m9 and m10 is the body shape....pray for a less thicker one...more like the original m´s

If i was naive i would like a cloth shutter and mechanical advance...but for that we need even smaller electronics....

[TennesseJones]

Exactly...

Originally Posted by gavinlg

Seconded. I barely care about the m10. Just waiting till I can get my hands on an M9 within my budget.

[fotomeow]

Originally Posted by Monochrom

Hi, i´ll taylor up my own m10.

23 Mp or more....
more dynamic range
no liveview
real quiet shutter

And above all diferences between the m9 and m10 is the body shape....pray for a less thicker one...more like the original m´s

If i was naive i would like a cloth shutter and mechanical advance...but for that we need even smaller electronics....

the shutter is the key for me. Would happily take a digital M10 with a cloth shutter and manual advance (like the FIRST dRF Epson RDs1) than the current electronic "continuous shooting" mode.

[Atto]

people asking for C-MOS? part of the outstanding colour rendition and IQ from M9 it is about CCD technology.

Next step? asking Hasselblad H5 Cmos?

Long live for CCD!

[jaapv]

FYI, the sensor on the M10 and presumably S3 will not be Japanese, if credible sources are to be believed. It will be a dedicated development for Leica by a French manufacturer - and CMos. I will be hanging on to my M9.

[icebear]

Originally Posted by Keith

Your projected M10 sounds like a two kidney camera to me!

It wouldn't surprise me if it all happened though ... the current digital M, as good as it is, does need to compete in several areas if it's to remain viable outside it's current fan base. There's a lot more tasty opposition out there than there was at the release of the M9.

Hi Keith,
as it has been mentioned in other threads already, there are a couple of used M9 popping up here and there (I also bought used end of April) with very low no. of pics taken. I assume these had been purchased by folks "outside the fan base". I.e. not current or former Leica M film shooters. "Oh, a FF digital Leica, I'm get one" and then being confronted with a pretty basic camera, manual focus, manual f setting, no multi zone auto everything. They tried it got stuck in the learning curve and sold it off.

For me the M9, or M10 for that matter only appeals to Leica M users that are used to the RF and have a number of M lenses already i.e. the traditional fan base. Outside of this group there might be buyers but hardly shooters. Just my 0.02$.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by icebear

I assume these had been purchased by folks "outside the fan base". I.e. not current or former Leica M film shooters. "Oh, a FF digital Leica, I'm get one" and then being confronted with a pretty basic camera, manual focus, manual f setting, no multi zone auto everything. They tried it got stuck in the learning curve and sold it off.

You'd be wrong in my case. I used the M2, M3, M4, M4-2, and M6 before ever owning the M8. Then after using the M8 for a year, I bought a M9.

On another note, it seems strange that people here seemingly get offended by what others do with their cash or by what camera they choose to use over a M9. The M9 is a great camera, but it is not the only great camera on the market. We live in a very weird time for cameras... we have access to the whole history of film cameras while being smack dab in the middle of the golden era of digital. I find that to be a great thing.

[icebear]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

You'd be wrong in my case. I used the M2, M3, M4, M4-2, and M6 before ever owning the M8. Then after using the M8 for a year, I bought a M9. .....

Have you indeed sold off your M9 ?

[ramosa]

Originally Posted by swoop

I just need a higher ISO with noise. 6400 would be perfect. A faster buffer would be much appreciated. And a rear LCD with a bit more resolution and clarity. That's all that's on my M10 wishlist.

Ditto, along with improved DR.