M3 and 50mm for under £1000?

[moreammo]

Definitely possible, in fact one day soon i am going to post an M3 DS with 50mm Elmar, MR meter and original Leica case for $1200 US which i believe is still just under 1000 Euro's

[lrochfort]

Lots of European options I wasn't aware of, thanks Philipus. I shall definitely have to take my time to peruse.

I don't particularly care for high serial numbers and what have you; I'm not a collector or good enough photographer for that to make a difference!

What are people's opinion of the M2 and M4-2? I don't anticipate shooting 35mm, so the higher magnification on the M3 should suit, but more info is always good.

[joeswe]

Originally Posted by Ljós

Wow, +1 on Olivers tip. Have not dealt with Photohaus.de personally, but they have a good reputation.

Greetings, Ljós

I have personally dealt with Photohaus several times (on location and online), and they are highly recommendable. I think the condition "B" M3 + Elmar for 600 EUR (475 GBP) is quite decent, considering it is from a dealer and you usually get a warranty on these deals (inquire details). You can contact them and ask for more information, they are very friendly people and will tell you more about the exact technical state of the camera.

I would also second Filipus' recommendation for Foto Prisma in Bologna as a place for modestly priced vintage Leica stuff, I have been there personally once and the owner is incredibly nice. The cameras they were selling at the time were in very good shape and very reasonably priced.

Of course it is always best to buy locally but there is nothing wrong in buying online from a respectable outfit abroad. Just in keep in mind that you might have higher expenses for shipping in case there is a problem and you have to return something.

John

[rxmd]

If you can live with the slightly lower magnification, an M2 will give you more camera for the money. There are several in the classifieds right now for between $650 and $800, that's £420-£520 plus shipping, one of the $800 ones has been serviced by DAG and has a quick load spool, and one of the $650 ones comes with a VC meter which is a very good deal. I find the M2 better because I don't care much for 135mm lenses, but the option of 35mm framelines is considerably more useful.

[lrochfort]

It certainly seems like there are some deals to be had from reputable dealers.

I think what I should do is go to Aperture or Red Dot in London and handle an M2,3,4 so that I can get a feel for them and make sure the M3 is really what I want.

Do people have recommendations on M2 vs M4 and Summarit vs Summicron lenses?

Thanks again for the wealth of information!

[paradoxbox]

I bought my M3 and then later my 50mm Elmar 2.8 for a total of far less than 1000gbp

If you look around enough you'll find something sooner or later!

The M3 is fantastic; if you prefer 35mm and are OK with a lesser magnification of viewfinder then the M2 may be OK for you!

Build quality wise the M2 and M3 are about the same, the M4 is not quite as good but is still fantastic.

IMO the biggest factor for an M3 is whether or not you like the viewfinder.

[OlliL]

To add to the Photohaus.de recommendation by John:

I also dealt with them online and in their shop.
They're super nice and helpful.
They're ratings are always worse, than at other dealers and they offer warranty.
When they say it's a "B", others will definetly give the item "AB", at least.

I bought a Minilux from them and it developed the E-02 a couple weeks later.
They refunded the full amount right away.

[joeswe]

Originally Posted by lrochfort

Do people have recommendations on M2 vs M4 and Summarit vs Summicron lenses?

I never owned a M4 but I would say while there are small differences in practical use, it boils down more or less to the question which styling you prefer. The M4s are a bit younger for sure, but if a couple of years makes much of a difference on cameras that are 35+ years old, is debatable. It all depends on the condition of the individual sample you are looking at. If I am informed right, the biggest differences are in the design of the film transport lever, the loading mechanism (quick loading vs. traditional loading) and the frame counter (the M2 frame counter is automatic, but has to be reset by hand, while the M4 counter resets and counts automatically) and the rewind knob. The early versions of the M2 didn't have a self timer, if that is of any importance for you. The viewfinders are more or less the same with the exception of the (rarely used) 135mm frame line on the M4 that is paired with the 35mm frame line. The M2 shows either the 35mm frame line, the 50mm frame line or the 90mm frame line, but never two frame line sets at the same time. You can find more info on the various models in condensed form here.

On the Summicron vs. Summarit topic: The Summicrons are all fine lenses, you cannot go wrong with any of them. The early Summicron versions (v.1 "collapsible" succeeded by v.2 "rigid" and "dual range" with improved optics over v.1) are preferred by many shooters for black and white. They are prone to haze and scracthes/cleanings marks (soft glasses), so you have to pick your copy carefully. The later versions of the Summicron (v.3 and v.4) give more contrast which helps if you prefer to shoot color, but they also tend to be more expensive, especially version 4. I think the latter one would be outside your budget. The classic Summarit lens (f1.5, as opposed to the modern f2.5 Summarit) is a lens over which people are very much divided. It's basically a coated version of the 1930s Xenon (if I'm right) and as such it is often said to be not the sharpest lens, but some poeple still love it for it's character. It has very soft glass and is difficult to find in clean condition. The classic M-mount Elmar (f3.5, late f2.8; 1950s to 1974) can be had usually cheaper than any of the Summicron versions, but it is one to one and a half stop slower and optically inferior at larger apertures. Stopped down to f5.6 or f8 there isn't much of a difference, I would assume. It is a compact (if not tiny) lens collapsed, but as with the collapsible Summicron, the ergonomics of collapsible lenses are not for everyone. More condensed information on the various lens options here

[ruby.monkey]

Tri Tran's M4 + 50mm collapsible Summicron might just fit in your budget, depending on exchange rates and import duties.

M2 v. M4 - they're both excellent cameras. I preferred the M2's cleaner lines, less cluttered finder, and more secure take-up spool; whereas the M4's rewind lever beats the M2's knob for ease of use. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

[lrochfort]

Originally Posted by joeswe

I never owned a M4 but I would say while there are small differences in practical use, it boils down more or less to the question which styling you prefer. The M4s are a bit younger for sure, but if a couple of years makes much of a difference on cameras that are 35+ years old, is debatable. It all depends on the condition of the individual sample you are looking at. If I am informed right, the biggest differences are in the design of the film transport lever, the loading mechanism (quick loading vs. traditional loading) and the frame counter (the M2 frame counter is automatic, but has to be reset by hand, while the M4 counter resets and counts automatically) and the rewind knob. The early versions of the M2 didn't have a self timer, if that is of any importance for you. The viewfinders are more or less the same with the exception of the (rarely used) 135mm frame line on the M4 that is paired with the 35mm frame line. The M2 shows either the 35mm frame line, the 50mm frame line or the 90mm frame line, but never two frame line sets at the same time. You can find more info on the various models in condensed form here.

On the Summicron vs. Summarit topic: The Summicrons are all fine lenses, you cannot go wrong with any of them. The early Summicron versions (v.1 "collapsible" succeeded by v.2 "rigid" and "dual range" with improved optics over v.1) are preferred by many shooters for black and white. They are prone to haze and scracthes/cleanings marks (soft glasses), so you have to pick your copy carefully. The later versions of the Summicron (v.3 and v.4) give more contrast which helps if you prefer to shoot color, but they also tend to be more expensive, especially version 4. I think the latter one would be outside your budget. The classic Summarit lens (f1.5, as opposed to the modern f2.5 Summarit) is a lens over which people are very much divided. It's basically a coated version of the 1930s Xenon (if I'm right) and as such it is often said to be not the sharpest lens, but some poeple still love it for it's character. It has very soft glass and is difficult to find in clean condition. The classic M-mount Elmar (f3.5, late f2.8; 1950s to 1974) can be had usually cheaper than any of the Summicron versions, but it is one to one and a half stop slower and optically inferior at larger apertures. Stopped down to f5.6 or f8 there isn't much of a difference, I would assume. It is a compact (if not tiny) lens collapsed, but as with the collapsible Summicron, the ergonomics of collapsible lenses are not for everyone. More condensed information on the various lens options here

I'd read cameraquest several times, but there's so much information is a bit bewildering.

That's a great summary, thanks joeswe

[Vics]

My kit is M3 and Collapsible Summicron 50, plus I recently added a Summaron 2.8/35 with the "goggles". GREAT camera and lenses! I'll be selling everything else, because this is the one for me. Good luck on your search.

[David Hughes]

Don't forget duty and VAT on non EU buys.

And they include the cost of P&P when calculating duty (5% from memory). Then take a sub-total of all that and calculate VAT on that figure. It's 20% btw. So a non-EU bargain can turn out expensive.

Regards, David

PS I've been looking at Leica R's on ebay and they often sell for (far) more than the decent dealers are charging. And the dealers give guarantees, usually. OTOH, ebay will get you your money back if swindled.

[AJS Lamb]

Try looking at mw.classic.com

They're based in Islington and I can't sing their praises too highly. You can ring them on 020 7354 3767. Speak to Mahendra.

Good luck!

[S.H.]

Originally Posted by lrochfort

Do people have recommendations on M2 vs M4 and Summarit vs Summicron lenses?

M4 are "better" made, i. e. easier to repair than earlier M3 and M2 (dixit a repairman, not me). Better fit of the internal parts perhaps. For the user, not many differences.

Summicron should be way more usable than a summarit : the latter is optically worse than a summicron, and do not age well (soft glass/coatings, hard to find with clean glass, you also are in the collector territory). They are reputed to be inferior to the Zeiss sonnars of the same era.

[lrochfort]

Originally Posted by Vics

My kit is M3 and Collapsible Summicron 50, plus I recently added a Summaron 2.8/35 with the "goggles". GREAT camera and lenses! I'll be selling everything else, because this is the one for me. Good luck on your search.

That's interesting. How would you rate the 35mm and goggles on the M3 vs the unadorned 35mm on the M2? From a viewfinder/rangefinder perspective as well as usability.