jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Don't worry, it would only kill of Leica USA. The rest of the world would not follow this sillyness.
Forget the M8 upgrade program.
Forget the M8 upgrade program.
And just buy the camera for life.
If only there was a trade in program...
Forget the M8 upgrade program.
And just buy the camera for life.
If only there was a trade in program...
jack palmer
Well-known
Because the rest of the world doesn't mind being lied to and misled ? We at least try to do something about companies living up to truth in advertising, you just roll over for it. If anything is silly it's your statement which isn't unusual.
Richard Marks
Rexel
Dear Brian
Youmay think this thread a joke but if i understand correctly from another thread you are currently considering a used M8 and have specifically asked about the cost of out of warranty repairs! Thats fine as if you get a used M8 possibly with a few teathing troubles ironed out you get a good deal. Some one however bought it new and may well have purchsed it with a long term view and they have every right to be disappointed about the lack of continuous upgrades and support for the M8. Even little things like getting rid of the 6 bit coding and going to a menu driven focal length selector would make a big difference to M8 users. Especially with those 1932 lenses that you refer to. I do not think it would hurt to be a bit more sympathetic but then you did not buy a new M8.
best wishes
Richard
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I actually thought Brian's attitude was a little hard line also but didn't want to say anything as he's normally so sensible.
Thanks for giving him a slap ... he deserved it!
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
As much as I love and envy the Leica film gear I think it's complete bullsh*t to release a digital Leica with the catch phrase "The Leica M9 is an investment for a lifetime." with a straight face. You can make a solid brass mechanical camera that will last more than one lifetime... they've proved that. But electronics break... they short out... lcd's die, buttons wear out, batteries loose their charge. My two top of the line PC's from 6 years ago are developing glitchy hardware and they stay in the house not moving. It's just a fact of life that electronics don't last because there's a trillion points of failure most of which are too small for the eye to see.
By "investment of a lifetime" do they mean you're going to have to invest in repairs for the rest of your life? Unless they're going to offer replacements or trade-ins when these M8's and 9's start to crap out beyond reasonable repair in the next 10-20 years it's a just crap.
Now don't get me wrong... I'm not offended that they're offering luxury cameras that will be obsolete in the span of 3-5 years max at the price of a small car... it's a luxury item, not a necessity... it's the fact that they're advertising that this will be a lifetime product like an M2 when realistically it's most likely going to be a cool looking book end or paper weight in 10-20 years max (if you want to be optimistic)
By "investment of a lifetime" do they mean you're going to have to invest in repairs for the rest of your life? Unless they're going to offer replacements or trade-ins when these M8's and 9's start to crap out beyond reasonable repair in the next 10-20 years it's a just crap.
Now don't get me wrong... I'm not offended that they're offering luxury cameras that will be obsolete in the span of 3-5 years max at the price of a small car... it's a luxury item, not a necessity... it's the fact that they're advertising that this will be a lifetime product like an M2 when realistically it's most likely going to be a cool looking book end or paper weight in 10-20 years max (if you want to be optimistic)
Richard Marks
Rexel
I actually thought Brian's attitude was a little hard line also but didn't want to say anything as he's normally so sensible.
Thanks for giving him a slap ... he deserved it!
Dear Keith
In terms of empathy for those who bought an M8 new, a saying from the 1930's springs to mind;
When a neighbour looses their job its a recession, when you loose yours its a depression" (Chips-Channon)!
All the best for 2010
Richard
retow
Well-known
It would be far far more complicated than what your first sentence suggests, unless true and watertight corporate seperateness existed among and at the Leica group of companies. Anyway, I expect this to remain a theoretical discussion only, and not meaningfull for a forum about Photography and gear
I just upgraded my $12,400 Digital camera to the latest sensor technology.
http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=84251
I have zero sympathy for someone buying a digital camera and complaining about newer ones coming out as a rate that makes your head spin like in the Exorcist. Buy a digital camera because you simply want it, or need it to get a job done. The problem here is that people are buying Digital Leica's with a Film-camera mindset. It just does not work, grow-up. As they said in "Animal House", "Face it Flounder.... You trusted them."
http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=84251
I have zero sympathy for someone buying a digital camera and complaining about newer ones coming out as a rate that makes your head spin like in the Exorcist. Buy a digital camera because you simply want it, or need it to get a job done. The problem here is that people are buying Digital Leica's with a Film-camera mindset. It just does not work, grow-up. As they said in "Animal House", "Face it Flounder.... You trusted them."
Has any authorized Leica Dealer refused to accept an M8 or M8.2 as a trade-in towards an M9? Has anyone been flat-out refused and told the camera is worthless toward a trade-in?
The value of the trade-in, unless specified in writing at the time of purchase of the M8 and M8.2 purchase would be irrelevant. It's still a trade-in for an upgrade.
Again- if I were Leica, I would offer a trade-in policy for the M8 and M8.2, refurb them, and sell them with a warranty.
The value of the trade-in, unless specified in writing at the time of purchase of the M8 and M8.2 purchase would be irrelevant. It's still a trade-in for an upgrade.
Again- if I were Leica, I would offer a trade-in policy for the M8 and M8.2, refurb them, and sell them with a warranty.
MCTuomey
Mentor
exactly what brian and disaster_area said. and to those criticizing leica for failing to deliver on some sort of marketing fluff, well, don't buy their gear. vote with your consuming power, buy old film cameras, buy some other maker's digi gear. whining about obsolescence - or leica's failure to cure obsolescence like some god descending from heaven to cure the photographic world of a great ill - is futile. it's with us. use it, work with it, but don't descend into some misguided threnody of nostalgia.
c'mon, why should leica be different? they wisely never tried to convince the buyer of an M3 that they'd provide "upgrade support" for 30 years, thus ensuring M3 --> M6 --> M7 or some such path of "improvement." of course not. you want the latest, you buy the latest model. where in the history of mass product development have there been exceptions to this concept? leica's lifetime camera blatherings were an ill-founded attempt to distance the leica marque from every other digi camera maker's product cycle as if digi gear were dustbrooms, and if you believed them, well, so much for (non)critical thinking.
c'mon, why should leica be different? they wisely never tried to convince the buyer of an M3 that they'd provide "upgrade support" for 30 years, thus ensuring M3 --> M6 --> M7 or some such path of "improvement." of course not. you want the latest, you buy the latest model. where in the history of mass product development have there been exceptions to this concept? leica's lifetime camera blatherings were an ill-founded attempt to distance the leica marque from every other digi camera maker's product cycle as if digi gear were dustbrooms, and if you believed them, well, so much for (non)critical thinking.
snausages
Well-known
I don't understand how a promise from a company for product protection is marketing fluff. By that logic, all warrantees and insurance coverage plans are fluff. It's unrealistic that a digital camera can remain 'state of the art' for perpetuity, but the customers didn't create the expectation, the seller did. It doesn't matter how ridiculous an offer looks in hindsight. The customer's decision was based on the parameters of the offer. An offer isn't null because it favored the customer. I'm surprised people are anything but critical of Leica here. I don't own an M8 and have no vested interest in this, but Leica created the false expectation, not the buyers.
I agree. They said one thing, and have done another. Which I interpret as misleading. Further more, they continue to market the M9 as a camera for life. Which is BS. It is a pity that corporations can’t just be straight up, with all this marketing crap flying around it is really hard to decide where to spend your dollars honestly.
Jodorowsky
Well-known
The whole thing was spin from the start. The M8 wasn't ready for release, but only in the sense that it a) had an amazingly loud shutter, b) had IR 'issues' and c) was difficult to compose shots with accurately. When I first took a picture, my first instinct was to send the camera back (I'd been using an M6....sigh....), but I put that instinct down to general splurger's regret.
When Stephen K Lee responded to the issues, it was a truly cack handed attempt to spin a negative into a positive. The first part of the perpetual upgrade program involved 'upgrades' to the shutter, the framelines, and, er, the LCD screen. None of these were the 'latest technological advances'- originally, supposedly, the point of the upgrade program. They were fixes, and for fixes they were bloody expensive (the sapphire glass was a red herring).
Other parts of the 'perpetual upgrade' program followed..... firmware updates. Fair enough.
The company never lied. They just issued a weirdly incompetent press release at Photokina which tried to spin the M8 into some sort of eco friendly camera which would never need replacing, only sent back to the factory for a tweak and an upgrade. All of this just to cover the fact that they'd only just worked out how to make the shutter quieter. BTW Stephen K Lee said that the upgrades would 'maybe' include sensor technology.
I understand why some people get upset about this, but you only really have to read the Leica/ Lee statements to see that there's absolutely no chance of a class action being successful. The company was being represented by someone who wasn't doing an amazingly good job (ahem, cough), and was sacked. Even if Leica were somehow bound by Lee's statements, they will have fulfilled their promise to upgrade to the latest technological refinements (what else is there for them to do?) They never 'promised' to retrofit sensors....
I'm glad I kept my M8, though. It makes great images, hindered only by my lack of imagination, skill and natural talent. I've taken hundreds and hundreds of images from which I can make some beautiful looking prints (which I wouldn't have been able to do with a compact), without me having to process and scan, and without having to lug a nasty, evil DSLR around with me; which wouldn't take my cherished Summicron and Summilux anyway. Maybe one day a Micro 4/3 type camera will produce images as good as my M8 and Leica glass, but until then I'm more than happy with my M8.
The M9 is another, expensive, story altogether.....
On the other hand, if i'd bought a new M8.2 a few months before the M9 came out, I'd have been really p**sed off!
When Stephen K Lee responded to the issues, it was a truly cack handed attempt to spin a negative into a positive. The first part of the perpetual upgrade program involved 'upgrades' to the shutter, the framelines, and, er, the LCD screen. None of these were the 'latest technological advances'- originally, supposedly, the point of the upgrade program. They were fixes, and for fixes they were bloody expensive (the sapphire glass was a red herring).
Other parts of the 'perpetual upgrade' program followed..... firmware updates. Fair enough.
The company never lied. They just issued a weirdly incompetent press release at Photokina which tried to spin the M8 into some sort of eco friendly camera which would never need replacing, only sent back to the factory for a tweak and an upgrade. All of this just to cover the fact that they'd only just worked out how to make the shutter quieter. BTW Stephen K Lee said that the upgrades would 'maybe' include sensor technology.
I understand why some people get upset about this, but you only really have to read the Leica/ Lee statements to see that there's absolutely no chance of a class action being successful. The company was being represented by someone who wasn't doing an amazingly good job (ahem, cough), and was sacked. Even if Leica were somehow bound by Lee's statements, they will have fulfilled their promise to upgrade to the latest technological refinements (what else is there for them to do?) They never 'promised' to retrofit sensors....
I'm glad I kept my M8, though. It makes great images, hindered only by my lack of imagination, skill and natural talent. I've taken hundreds and hundreds of images from which I can make some beautiful looking prints (which I wouldn't have been able to do with a compact), without me having to process and scan, and without having to lug a nasty, evil DSLR around with me; which wouldn't take my cherished Summicron and Summilux anyway. Maybe one day a Micro 4/3 type camera will produce images as good as my M8 and Leica glass, but until then I'm more than happy with my M8.
The M9 is another, expensive, story altogether.....
On the other hand, if i'd bought a new M8.2 a few months before the M9 came out, I'd have been really p**sed off!
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BillP
Rangefinder General
I just love threads like these. They bring out the founder members of the perpetual whine programme.
Perfidious Leica! How DARE they use the black art of MARKETING to encourage us to purchase their products! How weak are our minds that we can be swayed by such puffery! We have ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE - we MUST buy these cameras!
But wait... All is not perfect!
BURN THE WITCH!!!
Oh please...
And as for those who seem to think that the laws of the United States apply the world over...
...thank God they don't.
You lot must be REALLY bored. Roll on the great back to work on Monday.
Regards,
Bill
Perfidious Leica! How DARE they use the black art of MARKETING to encourage us to purchase their products! How weak are our minds that we can be swayed by such puffery! We have ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE - we MUST buy these cameras!
But wait... All is not perfect!
BURN THE WITCH!!!
Oh please...
And as for those who seem to think that the laws of the United States apply the world over...
...thank God they don't.
You lot must be REALLY bored. Roll on the great back to work on Monday.
Regards,
Bill
retow
Well-known
This obviously is not the area of your expertise. And by the way the question at hand would not be the one of worldwide applicability or not of a specific jurisdiction's laws and rules.
BillP
Rangefinder General
Nor yours. Bless.
Regards,
Bill
Regards,
Bill
_mark__
Well-known
The main arguments in Leica's favor in this thread seems to be,
1. As a consumer you should of been able to see through the marketing lies in the first place and recognize it as spin, get over it.
2. Of course a digital camera cannot last a lifetime buy a film camera.
Are you kidding me?
1. As a consumer you should of been able to see through the marketing lies in the first place and recognize it as spin, get over it.
2. Of course a digital camera cannot last a lifetime buy a film camera.
Are you kidding me?
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
We all know that Uncle Sam's long arm doesn't stop at the borders of the USA, Bill
BillP
Rangefinder General
...who mentioned lies? There is a difference between a lie and puffery - or do you take everything literally? If someone says to you "it's raining cats and dogs" do you really expect to run the risk of stepping in a poodle...?
In the UK at least there is something called the "Advertising Standards Authority" - I am sure you have something similar on the dark side of the pond. They ensure that advertising is "legal, decent, honest and truthful" - clearly all those UK photographers complaining that Leica lied kept them very busy...
The "lifetime" referred to is that of the product on the market, not yours. Nor indeed that of a mayfly, parrot or joshua tree.
Regards,
Bill