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old 11-05-2012  
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Paul T. Paul T. is offline
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Landscape photog loses £10k prize after photoshop work discovered.

The news report is here.

The blog post that helped call attention to the photoshopping is
here.

I haven't looked closely at the 'winning' entry to see how much photoshop work was done. But I wonder what work everyone here would find acceptable? Personally, I find the simple act of replacing a section of sky is wrong. Maybe that's because I'm rubbish at photoshop. What's your opinion? And do you think it was fair to strip Byrne of his prize?

Incidentally, the news report omits entirely the fact that Byrne essentially lifted and reshot somebody else's image. in my view that's the real crime. Again, maybe I'm old-fashioned.

 




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old 11-05-2012
mfogiel
Registered User
Reshoothing somebody else's photo is common practice among the crowds that sweep through any tourist site, and I do not see any problem with this, except when a photo like this wins a competition, but then the problem is also on the side of the judges.
As to photoshopping, it is difficult to define how far you can push, but personally I am more OK with somebody subtracting information from a photo (by dodging or burning in particular), rather than making a collage without mentioning it. After all, there are separate competitions for these made up images, aren't they?
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old 11-05-2012
thegman
Registered User
I don't find it right or wrong, but the competition is of course free to set it's own rules. As it happens I like the rules, though.

If the photo broke the rules, it's fine to not award the prize.

I will say however, that if I took "the shot of a lifetime" and it was blighted in some way, say a Coke can on an otherwise pristine beach, then I'd probably fire up Photoshop too.
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old 11-05-2012
FrozenInTime
Registered User
Boats at Lindisfarne is close to the British equivelent of Yosemite Valley from Tunnel View.
For it to win it had to be spectacular.

Adding in clouds as been done since before panchromatic film.
However if the competition rules demanded minimal manipulation, forfeiture seems correct.
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old 11-05-2012
larmarv916
Registered User
No, you are right to fire a warning flare about this issue and it is a big deal. In this new age of "fantasy photoshop"....that is where anything goes. This is a much bigger problem. So much of what is hitting the market is often composite images that claim to be original photography...and are really only fantasy landscapes or other images.

The digital darkroom was intended to do like a wet lab...all of the normal printing functions. From burning and dodging, contrast control, to color hue, and spotting.

What came from this was really a form of illustration what many gallery owners call "fantasy" image art. So stripping this guy of his prize is proper.

We see so much now where entire sections of images are cut and pasted together. In the digital art world...you grab a sky from one source, then add a famous second image from another, then add a digitally painted blending or even third image section... and now your a digital painter.

Again this is why film is like a zinc etching plate...once you shoot it the actual art captured can not be altered...only printed. A digital image is never fixed or final.
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old 11-05-2012
Pickett Wilson
Registered User
He broke the rules. That's the only issue, here. If you enter a competition, play by the rules.
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old 11-05-2012
gavinlg
Registered User
I hate photoshop.
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old 11-05-2012
Paul T.
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickett Wilson View Post
He broke the rules. That's the only issue, here. If you enter a competition, play by the rules.
The problem with Photoshopping here is that we can see that, like plastic surgery, it's addictive. You start off hoping for a little tweak and end up looking like the Bride Of Wildenstein.
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old 11-05-2012
Pickett Wilson
Registered User
I wasn't that impressed with the image he ended up with. Looks like many of the "popular" landscape images in the photo.net galleries. That "look" seems to be extremely popular right now.
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old 11-05-2012
Paul T.
Registered User
Well, that's really the point, isn't it? It was totally generic. The most classic sign of this was that he simply took someone else's image and 'improved' it by more retouching; that is not artistry, that is simply operating machinery.
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old 11-05-2012
tunalegs
Registered User
People have been printing in skies since the glass plate and albumen days. It was not even uncommon back then - it was basically expected.

In any event, the photographer broke the rules, and they apologized for it, so whatevs.
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old 11-05-2012
tunalegs
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul T. View Post
Well, that's really the point, isn't it? It was totally generic. The most classic sign of this was that he simply took someone else's image and 'improved' it by more retouching; that is not artistry, that is simply operating machinery.
That's actually a kind of funny way to look at things. Early photographers were very much about showing how photographs could be altered by the photographer as a way to prove that photography could be art. Straight photography was not considered art, no matter how well done, it was simply a mechanical/chemical process that made a scientific representation of a scene. No art in that!
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old 11-05-2012
pvdhaar
Zoom with your feet!
Quote:
Originally Posted by larmarv916 View Post
Again this is why film is like a zinc etching plate...once you shoot it the actual art captured can not be altered...only printed..
Numerous ways exist to create composites in register on film using grads, splitzers or other cut-outs and multiple exposures. What's more, once shot, slides can be sandwiched and duped for more creative freedom. Each of these actions deliver a frame on film that could be mistaken for representing something that actually occured in front of a camera but in reality didn't. So all in all, there's no intrinsic superiority of film when it comes to portraying the truth..
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old 11-05-2012
Richard G
Registered User
Tim Parkin: I'll have him on my team. But that's what drove my mother back to Australia from the UK: every bloody inch of England is so well known and charted and loved. David Byrne never stood a chance. The flat plain and the dead gum tree my mother hankered for would not have been photographed in the first place.
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old 11-05-2012
flip
良かったね!
It's not a photojournalism award, so rules is rules. To the extent that this sort of thing occurs frequently, it heightens awareness and will result in self-correction.

As to journalism, I think there is a valid argument that photos should all be on film for verifiability.
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old 11-05-2012
sanmich
The man who shot film
OT: I much prefer the current winner to the former one.
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old 11-05-2012
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Quote:
Originally Posted by photomoof View Post
When you are judging this kind of photography what is left but the "rules?"
Well, rules aside, the picture also stumbles over being a blatant copy/slick homage of another, well published photograph. If the jury was too incompetent in the field of UK landscape photography to know the photograph imitated, they should at the very least have read up all about the winner-to-be (in particular his own site) before publishing their decision.
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old 11-05-2012
Michael Markey
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard G View Post
Tim Parkin: I'll have him on my team. But that's what drove my mother back to Australia from the UK: every bloody inch of England is so well known and charted and loved. David Byrne never stood a chance. The flat plain and the dead gum tree my mother hankered for would not have been photographed in the first place.
You see this Lindisfarne shot time and time again in camera clubs up and down the UK.
In the club that I attended the folks swapped skies with each other all the time.
I even seen "street" shots populated by people taken from other photographs.
Most of the competition entries were composites of two or sometimes more different pictures.
Hardly anyone went out and took a straight shot and submitted it...that was regarded as very out of touch.
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old 11-05-2012
Paul T.
Registered User
In the good old days, photogs merely moved dead bodies into more interesting positions.
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old 11-05-2012
OurManInTangier
An Undesirable
What annoys me regarding this is the affect it appears to have on the perception of any shot captured digitally or that has passed through Photoshop ( or similar.) The idea that film is sacrosanct and digital is always a falsehood.

The image is and always has been under the control of the photographer, if he or she wishes to add/subtract or change elements then the only thing that has ever stopped them is their skill ( in the darkroom or in their chosen software) and their desire to produce an unaltered image or one that has been retouched in some way.

I've never been a member of a camera club but am surprised by reports of frequent 'swapping' of image elements. Personally I don't care if people wish to do this but would prefer the honest approach of being open about the composite nature of an altered picture.

To be clear, I now shoot exclusively digital. Which is no doubt why I get tetchy when sentiments such as some of those that have been posted are expressed. For me digital is convenient but not a reason or excuse to 'build' an image from several frames. Perhaps what you choose to photograph may determine whether you go down this route but if it's to deceive in some way I don't understand how a photographer could get any sense of accomplishment or joy from viewing that image...I think I'd only get a sense that I could have done better.

Perhaps I'm showing my naivety?!
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old 11-05-2012
tunalegs
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul T. View Post
In the good old days, photogs merely moved dead bodies into more interesting positions.
Her position isn't particularly interesting:


Those clouds on the other hand...
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old 11-05-2012
Jerevan
Recycled User
Okay, nothing to see here... move on folks, but...

Indeed highly personal: photoshop or not - the images are overworked to the point of being illustrations/drawings rather than anything remotely close to "I was there and saw the billowing clouds". I could say less than nice things about these "photographs" but I refrain from doing so.
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old 11-05-2012
Griffin
Grampa's cameras user
"Road to Nowhere" is one of my favorite songs of all time, perhaps David Byrne ought to stick to music.

Edit: sorry, that's just a joke too stupid..
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old 11-05-2012
Rangefinderfreak
Registered User
Photoshop is a tool like burning/dodging, retouching with pencil or using development with reels. You can do it with skill or with less skill... usually images out of camera with digital or film/negative are a bore...
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old 11-05-2012
rawhead
Registered User
Rules aside, my own personal line-in-the-sand is "adding" stuff that wasn't there in the first place. Taking away blemishes, enhancing clouds, darkening skies, all are good in my book.
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