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-   -   Is there a general No-No list for handling manual cameras? (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109977)

HLing 08-30-2011 10:19

Is there a general No-No list for handling manual cameras?
 
I've learned the hard way. NOW i know with the Leica IIIf I should not adjust the shutter speed before I've cocked the shutter.

Now that I know that, I've even begun to see information about how this could potentially damage your camera. is it that serious?

My question at the moment is, with what other cameras do I have to beware of in this respect?

Also, is there somewhere a list of things like this that may be very obvious to users, but not to beginners?

Roger Hicks 08-30-2011 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLing (Post 1697544)
I've learned the hard way. NOW i know with the Leica IIIf I should not adjust the shutter speed before I've cocked the shutter.

Now that I know that, I've even begun to see information about how this could potentially damage your camera. is it that serious?

My question at the moment is, with what other cameras do I have to beware of in this respect?

Also, is there somewhere a list of things like this that may be very obvious to users, but not to beginners?

In general, no. If it's obvious, it's obvious. The main reason not to set shutter speeds on rotating-dial cameras is, well, because they rotate and the indices don't line up.

If something doesn't appear to work properly, the way you expect, don't force it. Try to find a manual on line somewhere. And consider the possibility that it may be broken already.

Cheers,

R.

Brian Legge 08-30-2011 10:34

'Don't force it' is probably one of the only completely generic rules. Almost everything else is specific to particular types of cameras.

Roger Hicks 08-30-2011 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Legge (Post 1697554)
'Don't force it' is probably one of the only completely generic rules. Almost everything else is specific to particular types of cameras.

Dear Brian,

There's an old English saying: "Do not force it: get a bigger hammer."

Cheers,

R.

HLing 08-30-2011 10:58

So...what about an Olympus Pen Original? and how about a Canonet Original with the bottom winder? Does the rule apply to both?

I've got both fresh from repair and clean, so I know they are working well ( pictures came back nicely). I don't want to be breaking the camera unknowingly from this point on.

As for "don't force it" for a general rule, I've suffered the opposite, where I don't wind completely for fear of breaking something.

Thank you both for your input!

sevo 08-30-2011 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLing (Post 1697573)
So...what about an Olympus Pen Original? and how about a Canonet Original with the bottom winder? Does the rule apply to both?

"Do not force it" applies to anything. "Don't alter the shutter speed on a un-cocked camera" is generally untrue - you may lose or mis-expose a frame on cameras using a classic Leica style cloth shutter, but that is the worst that will happen, even if something appears to break in that context, it already was broken. Nor is the inverse any truer - you cannot set some leaf shutters past some internal thresholds if the shutter is already cocked, but only forcing them would damage the shutter.

Michiel Fokkema 08-30-2011 12:13

My hassy must be cocked before removing or mounting the lenses.

Cheers,

Michiel Fokkema

HLing 08-30-2011 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michiel Fokkema (Post 1697617)
My hassy must be cocked before removing or mounting the lenses.

Cheers,

Michiel Fokkema

I was just going to ask about changing lens mid roll in general for both Leica screwmount and Minolta SLR SRT 201, though I never owned or used a Hasselblad, and hadn't heard about cocking it before romoving or mounting lenses. That's interesting. What happens if it's not cocked before removing and mounting?

I've found with the SLR that on occasions some frames seemed solarized with sort of yellowish fade. It's especially when changing lenses in a hurry and under bright sun (which is not a wise thing to do, I know).

[quote=sevo;1697579]".... "Don't alter the shutter speed on a un-cocked camera" is generally untrue - you may lose or mis-expose a frame on cameras using a classic Leica style cloth shutter, but that is the worst that will happen, even if something appears to break in that context, it already was broken.

Sevo, losing a frame or two on the Leica would have been alright had I known the cause was changing shutter speed before cocking, but when I didn't know, it just made the camera seem unreliable;instead of holding the operator accountable.

rogerzilla 08-30-2011 12:25

Change the lenses on any rangefinder in subdued light. The shutter curtains don't always keep out sunlight entering the lens throat at unexpected angles. SLRs are fairly immune from this.

Calzone 08-30-2011 12:42

A general rule is that it is bad for mechanical cameras to sit unused. One of the best things you can do for longevity and trouble free use is use your camera daily.

Cal

HLing 08-30-2011 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calzone (Post 1697639)
A general rule is that it is bad for mechanical cameras to sit unused. One of the best things you can do for longevity and trouble free use is use your camera daily.

Cal

THAT I can and do do!

oftheherd 08-30-2011 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLing (Post 1697622)
I was just going to ask about changing lens mid roll in general for both Leica screwmount and Minolta SLR SRT 201, ...

Interchangeable lens cameras usually don't require that. I hadn't heard of the need on a Hassy, but then I don't own one either. An old SLR where the lens only communicated with the body on exposure (usually to set the aperture) would not be a problem. That was so on the old Minolta SRT series, all models as far as I know.

Even on my Fujical ST 901, the body communicated to set the aperture, and also to tell the body what the aperture would be on the lens when the exposure was made. Didn't need to worry about anything there.

Also when going manual on shutter speeds, the dial on the Fujica could be moved before or after cocking the shutter as it was electronic. Same on the non-electronic Yashica TL Super and Pentax SV.

Vickko 08-30-2011 13:47

1. on RF, make sure the lens cap is off when you take the photo
2. make sure the rewind lever turns when you advance the film
3. check the shutter and aperture settings

....Vick

sevo 08-30-2011 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLing (Post 1697622)
I was just going to ask about changing lens mid roll in general for both Leica screwmount and Minolta SLR SRT 201, though I never owned or used a Hasselblad, and hadn't heard about cocking it before romoving or mounting lenses. That's interesting. What happens if it's not cocked before removing and mounting?

You cannot take off or mount the lens. That is the same for all medium format leaf shutter SLRs - lens and body have to be in the same state (usually cocked) so that the lens/body couplers can mesh.

mwooten 08-30-2011 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLing (Post 1697544)
... NOW i know with the Leica IIIf I should not adjust the shutter speed before I've cocked the shutter. ...

The FED3 that I have is the same way. Cock the shutter, then set the speed.

Included in the Medium Format SLR's that are referred to above in sevo's post is the Bronica ETRSi.

Also, I guess you shouldn't point a cloth-shuttered rangefinder at the sun any longer than you should look at the sun with your naked eyeball. It will mess them both up.

Phil_F_NM 08-30-2011 14:56

You can't immerse them in saltwater (except for the specific underwater cameras like the Nikonos).
I found that out after falling into the Bay of Cadiz with my M4. Oops.

Phil Forrest

FrankS 08-30-2011 15:03

Rollei 35 models - cock shutter/wind on film, before attempting to collapse lens.

Retina and Fuji folding cameras - set lens to infinity before folding

Gumby 08-30-2011 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Legge (Post 1697554)
'Don't force it' is probably one of the only completely generic rules. Almost everything else is specific to particular types of cameras.

I agree with this one! I just sold a RF camera to a yokel who forced the self-timer without cocking the shutter and destroyed the shutter. He lied to me and said "something must have jiggled loose in the mail" but there is NO WAY. I can't imagine how much forcing it took but it was a considerable amount.

peterm1 08-30-2011 17:30

The other big lesson is that cloth shutter curtains can be fragile. It is too easy to put your finger through a curtain when loading film - especially in an LTM camera which is extra fiddly. And more especially if you are clumsy. (Like me)

The other problem I have had is that when I trimmed the leader on an LTM camera I once cut through one of the notches in the edge of the film. This created a weak spot and when the film was wound on it tore the film longitudinally - part of which bunched up inside the camera body and part of which wrapped around the spool.

Do you know how difficult it is to remove a torn film from an LTM camera without destroying the shutter? Pretty hard!

FrankS 08-30-2011 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterm1 (Post 1697761)

The other problem I have had is that when I trimmed the leader on an LTM camera I once cut through one of the notches in the edge of the film. This created a weak spot and when the film was wound on it tore the film longitudinally - part of which bunched up inside the camera body and part of which wrapped around the spool.

Do you know how difficult it is to remove a torn film from an LTM camera without destroying the shutter? Pretty hard!


That happened to me once too. Since then I trim the leader back further.

Bob Michaels 08-30-2011 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vickko (Post 1697675)
1. on RF, make sure the lens cap is off when you take the photo
2. make sure the rewind lever turns when you advance the film
3. check the shutter and aperture settings
....Vick

Before you smirk and think "I know that", realize those 3 tips will resolve probably 98% of rangefinder problems that people have.

JohnTF 08-30-2011 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumby (Post 1697731)
I agree with this one! I just sold a RF camera to a yokel who forced the self-timer without cocking the shutter and destroyed the shutter. He lied to me and said "something must have jiggled loose in the mail" but there is NO WAY. I can't imagine how much forcing it took but it was a considerable amount.

My friend who runs a local shop had a guy bring in a camcorder under warranty, got in his face claiming he babied the camera.
Nikon fixed the camera, but sent a note telling the dealer to check the video, it was on a tripod and was recording until it hit the ground.

Lots of us screw up, best to fess up to the guy sending it in.

I have heard the Hassy can be jammed if the lens and body are not both either cocked or both uncocked, takes a tool to get the lens off?

Pentacon 6's can be broken by looking at the inside while changing film? Actually, the word is never touch the tension arms, and get them serviced upon purchase.

If you trip the shutter on some cameras with dead batteries, it locks the shutter open, until you shift it to the manual speed.

John

dogberryjr 08-30-2011 18:32

Always focus the Plaubel Makina 67 to infinity before collapsing the lens.

HLing 08-30-2011 21:16

eye opening !
 
Thanks everyone for the wealth of information! I don't know all of the cameras mentioned, and now will have a name to look them up.

For example, I looked up Pentacon 6, and found someone's instruction on loading the film. From That I learned that the film advance arm should be followed back to the starting position guided by the thumb, instead of letting it swing back by itself. Makes me wonder if the same rule applies to the Exakta Twin TL that I've not tried to use yet.

Anyhow, I'm going to read and re-read all the replies here and try to have the info in the back of my head so that when the situation arises I'll have a memory base to access.

I'm also going to be more conscientious about reading a manual before poking and turning knobs that I don't know the function of. I mean, that you can break the shutter by trying to set the timer without cocking the shutter? warning heeded!

Cagliostro73 09-01-2011 02:39

1. always cock the shutter before changing speed in FSU cameras (on a kiev 88 you'll destroy the shutter, for istance)
2. never leave an uncapped lens on a cloth curtain rf exposed to the sun (you'll burn holes in the shutter curtains)
3. never leave an armed shutter in a mechanical camera and leave it unused for a long time
4. always remove batteries, in case of a long term "rest" of your equipment
5. never make the same mistake twice... :D

sevo 09-01-2011 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cagliostro73 (Post 1698708)
3. never leave an armed shutter in a mechanical camera and leave it unused for a long time

True - but for different reasons than often assumed. Armed/cocked shutters (or more generally, tensioned springs) do not wear out in that state, unless the design is quite dramatically wrong (in which case they'd be wasted even faster when in use). But greased metal surfaces tend to stick when left for a long time - and the initial torque from the released spring often fails to overcome that stiction. The torque applied when winding the camera/cocking tends to be considerably bigger and will usually force these sticky shutters and make them workable again.

Lobo 09-03-2011 02:07

when repairing or disassemling a Agfa Silette LK (2. Generation, plastic Body) you have to note how much and in how position the front lens is screwed to the body. there are several ways to screw it in and the deepest position is not for infinity focus.
So turn the focus to infinity, and mark a point of the lens border and the same point on the body with 2 pieces of tape to see how the lens is screwed to the thread of the body.

ath 09-03-2011 03:36

There is a reason why cameras have a manual. I know, men do not like to read manuals (in general) but this is the place where the do's and don'ts are listed.

Lobo 09-04-2011 01:53

never use the selftimer of an old camera. my first vintage camera had a full working timer, but on the next few cameras the timer stopped the whole camera working. i had to open the camera lens to bring them back to life.

Lobo 09-04-2011 01:55

edit: if you need a selftimer, use a "autoknips", a small metal device with a a small pin and a clockwork inside, that pushes the shutter of cameras.

Roger Hicks 09-04-2011 02:56

Usually you can persuade the self-timer on a Compur or Prontor to reach the end of its travel with VERY gentle, slow finger pressure on the lever. The same goes for slow speed trains. Sometimes, if you're lucky and patient, you can even get the escapements working again by repeated exercise.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks 09-04-2011 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevo (Post 1698721)
True - but for different reasons than often assumed. Armed/cocked shutters (or more generally, tensioned springs) do not wear out in that state, unless the design is quite dramatically wrong (in which case they'd be wasted even faster when in use). But greased metal surfaces tend to stick when left for a long time - and the initial torque from the released spring often fails to overcome that stiction. The torque applied when winding the camera/cocking tends to be considerably bigger and will usually force these sticky shutters and make them workable again.

That's interesting: I'd never heard it before. It certainly makes sense in theory but I don't actually recall any examples in practice -- which may simply be that I've never bothered to investigate a 'stuck' shutter when buying (or rejecting) a camera.

Cheers,

R.

varjag 09-04-2011 03:15

Don't use WD40. Ever.

Towermax 09-05-2011 20:56

And keep in mind that common rules do vary from camera to camera.

For example, on my Ansco Karomat (Agfa Karat 36), the owner's manual states, "When using the 1/500 of a second speed, the shutter must be set before the the film is wound and the shutter cocked, or damage to the shutter will result."

So, as was earlier said, "Read the manual."

mathomas 09-05-2011 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cagliostro73 (Post 1698708)
...
3. never leave an armed shutter in a mechanical camera and leave it unused for a long time
...

Except for V-series Hasselblads with leaf shutters, for which the recommendation is to keep the shutter armed (see notes about lens changes, above).

(recommendation is made by Hasselblad itself, and can be found in "The Hasselblad Manual", by Wildi)

HLing 09-06-2011 06:54

exception to the general rules
 
[quote=Towermax;1702082]And keep in mind that common rules do vary from camera to camera.

For example, on my Ansco Karomat (Agfa Karat 36), the owner's manual states, "When using the 1/500 of a second speed, the shutter must be set before the the film is wound and the shutter cocked, or damage to the shutter will result."

So, as was earlier said, "Read the manual."[/quote


Thanks for this, and all the replies so far. I imagine I should start to make a searchable reference file from all the info so that one can type in the specific camera make to see the cautions and the exceptions.

batterytypehah! 09-06-2011 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towermax (Post 1702082)
For example, on my Ansco Karomat (Agfa Karat 36), the owner's manual states, "When using the 1/500 of a second speed, the shutter must be set before the the film is wound and the shutter cocked, or damage to the shutter will result."

This is true not only for Ansco/Agfa but any camera with the Compur-Rapid shutter. It has an extra spring to achieve 1/500 which you can feel as you move the speed ring from 250 to 500. Set speed first, cock shutter second (winding depends on the camera). Examples are Kodak Retinas and Voigtländer Vitos of the same era.

jsrockit 09-06-2011 07:13

I wouldn't stress it too hard HLIng... I've used tons of different cameras and never broke any of them from forcing anything.

HLing 09-07-2011 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by batterytypehah! (Post 1702328)
This is true not only for Ansco/Agfa but any camera with the Compur-Rapid shutter. It has an extra spring to achieve 1/500 which you can feel as you move the speed ring from 250 to 500. Set speed first, cock shutter second (winding depends on the camera). Examples are Kodak Retinas and Voigtländer Vitos of the same era.

Is it safe to say that Compur-Rapid shutters are found mostly in folding cameras only then?

Quote:

I wouldn't stress it too hard HLIng... I've used tons of different cameras and never broke any of them from forcing anything.
jsrockit, Stress is my middle name. :)

batterytypehah! 09-07-2011 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLing (Post 1703292)
Is it safe to say that Compur-Rapid shutters are found mostly in folding cameras only then?

Probably so -- but I would stress "mostly," as I'm not enough of an expert. I see it's also used in some TLRs, for example, of which I know very little.

Around the time that folders fell out of fashion in favor of rigids is also when the Compur-Rapid morphed into the Synchro-Compur, but the transition was probably more complicated than that.


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