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-   -   Kiev 4am light leak! (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168373)

Huss 05-15-2019 07:24

Kiev 4am light leak!
 
Just finished my first roll in this camera. Exposures/shutter timing are great. Focus is spot on. Lens excellent. But I am getting a light leak on about 50% of the film, coming through the sprocket area on the bottom left corner. See below.
Note - the camera is always in it's half case so it cannot come in through the bottom. It looks like it is coming in through the area by the VF - so I'm guessing the exposed seam just below the VF where the leather case is cut down to fit.
Ideas?






Mark Wood 05-15-2019 07:53

Very common and almost certainly the baffle behind the rangefinder prism:

http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbc...t%20leaks.html

with light then coming through the sprocket drive area. (Lay the film across the gate and the streak will probably line up with the appropriate place.) Other people's experiences of sorting this one out may differ but I've found it impossible to fix in two cameras, the fit of the components under the top casting being so poor. If you shine a bright torch through the small rangefinder window in a dark room, you will see a pin point of light in the area near the sprocket drive - wind and fire the shutter a few times and retry this though, as it won't happen every time. It's more like it was a feature that was built into the later Kievs I'm afraid and that's a very late one.

On colour negative film, the streak on the final prints/scans would be orange if a leak from the back was to blame. That's a white streak, so it's a light leak on the emulsion side of the film. The fogging doesn't happen on the frame that's lined up with the film gate, it's on the previous exposure that's partially wound onto the take-up spool, if that makes sense!

Huss 05-15-2019 10:04

Thanks for the explanation Mark!
Yeah, white streak. And doesn't happen all the time.

My Fed2 and Zorki 4 are perfect, so perhaps I should sell this on to someone who isn't bothered and wants a pretty black Contax copy with excellent lens!

I mean, who wouldn't want this?


Huss 05-15-2019 19:13

So I used your advice Mark and shone a bright light into the RF window.

I could see light come out of this seam indicated by the blade, and just underneath it behind the sprocket gear. So the baffle in there is bad/misplaced. Wild guess but this may have happened when this camera was repainted.


ColSebastianMoran 05-15-2019 19:25

Huss, why is the leak at a different spot in the two shots you posted?

TenEleven 05-15-2019 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran (Post 2888127)
Huss, why is the leak at a different spot in the two shots you posted?

The position seems similar enough to me and from my experience the exact position of both flare and light leaks depends on the angle and intensity of the incoming light.

Ko.Fe. 05-15-2019 20:03

I would start with fresh light seal on the body Chanel at perimeter of removable back.
Black wool thread is what was and is in use.

Huss 05-15-2019 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran (Post 2888127)
Huss, why is the leak at a different spot in the two shots you posted?

the first pic is the very first on the roll which is y it is in a slightly different position. but they all are in that area.

Huss 05-15-2019 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. (Post 2888140)
I would start with fresh light seal on the body Chanel at perimeter of removable back.
Black wool thread is what was and is in use.

I can see the light leak at the top of the sprocket shaft inside the body. so that would not help. Mark was correct with his explanation.

Mark Wood 05-16-2019 00:29

Yes, that's exactly where it comes from with three Kiev bodies I have. It does seem to originate from a poor light seal/baffle behind the rangefinder prism but the problem with the cameras I have is that the fit of all of the parts in that region of the top of the camera is so poor, that there isn't really any chance of a new baffle behind the prism stopping every light leak. The poor quality of the parts in some of these cameras really has to be seen to be believed. Light leaks from the body channel tend to spread much further into the sprocket region of the film and would show up as orange on colour negative film, as the light has to come through the film base to reach the emulsion - I've seen that problem too but it's much easier to resolve.

I've tried all of the other suggestions in the article on the Kiev survival site but sadly, all to no avail, I'm afraid. I think there's a good reason why so many late models of these cameras turn up in almost mint condition, as they were probably never usable from the day they left the factory. (The 1950s/60s ones are a different matter altogether and some of those from the early-mid 1970s don't seem too bad either.)

It's probably best to look for one that's been well used!

Mark Wood 05-16-2019 00:37

1 Attachment(s)
Here's the same problem from a 1975 Kiev 4a. (Taken on slide film and scanned very badly!) That camera probably now has more bits of foam and black plastic sheeting stuffed in it than it has original metalwork but it still has this light leak - sometimes...

Mark Wood 05-16-2019 04:37

1 Attachment(s)
Difficult to be certain in the dark(!) but I've always thought the light is getting through the hole that I've marked (badly!) with the white arrow here. That could explain partly, why it only happens on some frames and not others.

Steve M. 05-16-2019 06:36

If that's the case, it's an easy fix Mark. Just put a drop of white glue in the hole and give it a dab w/ a black marker. If you have a bit of acrylic or other paint then it's a one step operation (just dab a little paint into the hole opening).

Brambling 05-16-2019 11:41

Dear friends, the figured light-shielding gasket is missing or incorrectly installed in these chambers (item 11, figure 27)

Huss 05-16-2019 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brambling (Post 2888271)
Dear friends, the figured light-shielding gasket is missing or incorrectly installed in these chambers (item 11, figure 27)

Thank you for this information. Any idea where to get that part? Or craft something myself?

Ko.Fe. 05-16-2019 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huss (Post 2888160)
I can see the light leak at the top of the sprocket shaft inside the body. so that would not help. Mark was correct with his explanation.

Explanation means nothing until you will fix the problem.
I cured my 4am leaks starting from where I mentioned.
And then I applied some other patches. But if you think what Mark's explanation is correct, I'm done here.

farlymac 05-16-2019 17:10

I'd try either some gaffers or electrical tape to cover the suspect area. Looks like it will clear the film movement.


PF

Brambling 05-16-2019 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huss (Post 2888309)
Thank you for this information. Any idea where to get that part? Or craft something myself?

you can do it yourself.
for production and installation it is necessary to disconnect slightly the shutter from the case.
There are two pads - round with a cut side and curved shaped. The round is usually not lost, the curved figured can be lost or installed incorrectly.
The figured can be made most of any dense black material thin, it is good to use copper or brass plate - it is more rigid.

Also, if you have already removed the cover, it is good to install such a gasket.

and change/add a string seal in the lid.
unfortunately, now I have disassembled Kiev is not for photography and measurements of curly pads. I recommend buying a cheap donor.
the photos are taken here from my club mates. http://rangefinder.ru/club/viewtopic...ев
Oh, the translation is completely different, I hope you understand me.

Huss 05-17-2019 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve M. (Post 2888238)
If that's the case, it's an easy fix Mark. Just put a drop of white glue in the hole and give it a dab w/ a black marker. If you have a bit of acrylic or other paint then it's a one step operation (just dab a little paint into the hole opening).

I just filled those holes w/ black rtv sealant. Seems like no light is coming through them now but my room was not pitch black just yet. The fact that my leaks were directly on the film's sprocket hole areas makes me hopeful.
Aside from the light leak this camera seems a-ok with a very nice lens that makes sweet pics:



(hey how come she gets to use an M7 while I have to tool around a Kiev?! ;) )

farlymac 05-17-2019 19:38

I was going to take you up on your original offer, Huss, but I'm glad you solved the problem instead.


I've noticed this with more than one FED camera, and have seen the light bouncing around before. These small kinds of leaks can sometimes be difficult to pin down as to where it is coming from, but you've shown that by studying the pattern and location of the leak, it can be traced to the source much easier.


Good luck on the RTV sealant. I'd be leery of it out-gassing onto the lens.


PF

Huss 05-17-2019 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by farlymac (Post 2888589)


Good luck on the RTV sealant. I'd be leery of it out-gassing onto the lens.


PF

It was only two tiny drops, and I had the back off for a day while they dried. So I don't think there is much chance for outgassing to get through the body, past the shutter and into the lens.
Just checked it again in the dark with an LED light, and I no longer see the light leaks that I saw before. So I'll run another roll through it but I am hopeful it is fixed.
I'll let you know if I'm going to unload it. There are certain design elements that I have not yet jelled with - the infinity lock and the shutter speed dial.
The 53 1.8 lens is very nice though:


Huss 05-19-2019 20:19

Finished the second roll, so I'll soon see if the fix is 2 legit 2 legit 2 quit.

The kamera is starting to grow on me, I mean it is stll a total pain in the a$$ with the focus lock, fiddly shutter speed dial and rf window that is blocked if you hold the camera normally. But it is still starting to grow on me.

Huss 05-24-2019 11:19

My attempted fix did not work.. same as before. I'll be unloading this pretty thing as I have too many other cameras that work perfectly to be bothered with this!
Shame as the lens is excellent.

Glen851 05-25-2019 04:04

That's too bad about the light leak. I have yet to put a roll of film through my 4a, but I agree with PITA assessment. I fiddle with it regularly but compared to the FEDs and Zorki, I'm not bonding with this box! Good luck!

Huss 05-25-2019 06:51

Yeah my Fed2 and Zorki4 are kameras that just work and give great results. And this is w/o taking the light leak issue of the Kiev into account. The Kiev gets in your way shooting, not out.
But it looks cool.
;)

yorksteve 12-04-2019 08:31

This thread may have saved another Kiev from the cupboard of forgotten cameras. As soon as I saw those shapes in the bottom left of the negative in the top post, I recognised them from the ones which turned up on some (but not all) of the film I just put through a Kiev 3A.
And after shining a torch through the rangefinder window, yes, a tiny pin-prick of light is coming through that hole in the top sprocket wheel. So I have a project...
Also, the wool/yak hair seal in the groove where the back meets the top, is completely missing, so that's another job.
Hoping that this one will be back to full health soon.

Huss 12-04-2019 10:41

Steve, where r u based? York, England?

Ko.Fe. 12-04-2019 11:38

Huss, you could find, afford serviced Contax IIa. I have seen, hold in hands this kind of camera in 2016. Still impressed. Kievs are too crude, IMO, to joy. I have II serviced before I got it and serviced in Kiev while I used it. Shutter selection was still too crude for my taste. On Contax IIa it is same as on M5.

yorksteve 12-04-2019 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huss (Post 2927496)
Steve, where r u based? York, England?

That's right.

yorksteve 03-03-2020 04:45

1 Attachment(s)
Here is a problem I am seeing on some (not all) frames taken with my Kiev 3A. The top half of the photo is fine, but the bottom half completely overexposed. Looking at the negatives, I can't see any leakage over the sprocket holes or between the frames. This was shot at 1/500, as were the frames which came out OK.
This same camera had an issue with light coming in at the top sprocket wheel (see my post a few above), but that has been fixed with some black acrylic paint. At the same time I added some black cotton yarn in the slot where the back meets the top, as there was none at all. But I still get this problem. So...should I add a thicker bit of yarn, or could it be a shutter problem, with it running more slowly over the top half of the negative.
All theories gratefully accepted!

retinax 03-03-2020 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorksteve (Post 2945689)
Here is a problem I am seeing on some (not all) frames taken with my Kiev 3A. The top half of the photo is fine, but the bottom half completely overexposed. Looking at the negatives, I can't see any leakage over the sprocket holes or between the frames. This was shot at 1/500, as were the frames which came out OK.
This same camera had an issue with light coming in at the top sprocket wheel (see my post a few above), but that has been fixed with some black acrylic paint. At the same time I added some black cotton yarn in the slot where the back meets the top, as there was none at all. But I still get this problem. So...should I add a thicker bit of yarn, or could it be a shutter problem, with it running more slowly over the top half of the negative.
All theories gratefully accepted!

A light leak should be visible outside the frame as long as it's not coming from the lens (or lens mount area), a shutter problem not.

farlymac 03-03-2020 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorksteve (Post 2945689)
Here is a problem I am seeing on some (not all) frames taken with my Kiev 3A. The top half of the photo is fine, but the bottom half completely overexposed. Looking at the negatives, I can't see any leakage over the sprocket holes or between the frames. This was shot at 1/500, as were the frames which came out OK.
This same camera had an issue with light coming in at the top sprocket wheel (see my post a few above), but that has been fixed with some black acrylic paint. At the same time I added some black cotton yarn in the slot where the back meets the top, as there was none at all. But I still get this problem. So...should I add a thicker bit of yarn, or could it be a shutter problem, with it running more slowly over the top half of the negative.
All theories gratefully accepted!

Not a light leak at all, but a shutter running slow over the upper half of the frame causing an overexposure. Second curtain release is getting occasionally delayed. $0.02

PF

yorksteve 03-04-2020 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by farlymac (Post 2945840)
Not a light leak at all, but a shutter running slow over the upper half of the frame causing an overexposure. Second curtain release is getting occasionally delayed. $0.02

PF

I was heading to this theory too. Is there a fix for this?

farlymac 03-04-2020 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorksteve (Post 2945984)
I was heading to this theory too. Is there a fix for this?

A CLA by someone who knows their way around a Contax, Steve. Not something I would want to take on, as my experience with Zeiss 35mm repairs are limited to a Contaflex II overhaul, and fixing the frame counter on a Contax IIa. And both involved undoing what someone else did.

PF

yorksteve 03-05-2020 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by farlymac (Post 2946044)
A CLA by someone who knows their way around a Contax, Steve.

I suspected as much. I may use this as a learning exercise in exploring the inner workings. I have a couple of other Kievs I can use in the meantime.

Thanks for pointing me at the real problem.

Brambling 03-05-2020 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorksteve (Post 2946125)
I suspected as much. I may use this as a learning exercise in exploring the inner workings.

:)
Yes, this is clearly a shutter error.
You should check this with a test film at all shutter speeds on a mid-gray subject.
Then I would do so - you need to remove the top cover and frame of the box (along which the film moves). Do not remove the shutter.
1. Carefully blow out all the mechanisms and gears - there may be sand, thickened grease, pieces of film.
2. with a pointed wooden stick (a toothpick?) Try to remove debris that is not blown away by air. (pay attention to the condition of the tape - webbing)
3. blow out air again
4. Try to clean dirty areas with clean gasoline. (through a spray gun and a thin tube, very little, wiping off excess gasoline with cotton wool on a stick) Replace the crown and use the shutter several times to observe the movement of the blinds.
5. blow out air again
6. Carefully install the frame box and top cover. (pay attention to the movement of the curtain at the moment when the shutter starts to work, the operation of the hook holds the curtain)
7. Check again with test film at all shutter speeds.
This is the minimum that can be done.

Sorry for the auto-translation and I wish you success!

oftheherd 03-05-2020 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. (Post 2888140)
I would start with fresh light seal on the body Chanel at perimeter of removable back.
Black wool thread is what was and is in use.

I couldn't find any Yak yarn so I had to fall back on black yarn which I then covered with black marker. Worked for me, but I can't say it will work for anyone else.

farlymac 03-05-2020 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brambling (Post 2946175)
:)
Yes, this is clearly a shutter error.
You should check this with a test film at all shutter speeds on a mid-gray subject.
Then I would do so - you need to remove the top cover and frame of the box (along which the film moves). Do not remove the shutter.
1. Carefully blow out all the mechanisms and gears - there may be sand, thickened grease, pieces of film.
2. with a pointed wooden stick (a toothpick?) Try to remove debris that is not blown away by air. (pay attention to the condition of the tape - webbing)
3. blow out air again
4. Try to clean dirty areas with clean gasoline. (through a spray gun and a thin tube, very little, wiping off excess gasoline with cotton wool on a stick) Replace the crown and use the shutter several times to observe the movement of the blinds.
5. blow out air again
6. Carefully install the frame box and top cover. (pay attention to the movement of the curtain at the moment when the shutter starts to work, the operation of the hook holds the curtain)
7. Check again with test film at all shutter speeds.
This is the minimum that can be done.

Sorry for the auto-translation and I wish you success!

Replace the gasoline with naphtha, it's safer to work with.

PF

yorksteve 03-05-2020 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brambling (Post 2946175)
:)
Yes, this is clearly a shutter error.
You should check this with a test film at all shutter speeds on a mid-gray subject.
Then I would do so - you need to remove the top cover and frame of the box (along which the film moves). Do not remove the shutter.
1. Carefully blow out all the mechanisms and gears - there may be sand, thickened grease, pieces of film.
2. with a pointed wooden stick (a toothpick?) Try to remove debris that is not blown away by air. (pay attention to the condition of the tape - webbing)
3. blow out air again
4. Try to clean dirty areas with clean gasoline. (through a spray gun and a thin tube, very little, wiping off excess gasoline with cotton wool on a stick) Replace the crown and use the shutter several times to observe the movement of the blinds.
5. blow out air again
6. Carefully install the frame box and top cover. (pay attention to the movement of the curtain at the moment when the shutter starts to work, the operation of the hook holds the curtain)
7. Check again with test film at all shutter speeds.
This is the minimum that can be done.

Sorry for the auto-translation and I wish you success!

Thanks for all of this. It maybe some time before I have a free day to get on with this, but I will report back if/when it happens.


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