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-   -   male photographers talk about gear because they can't talk about emotions (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168416)

aizan 05-19-2019 16:52

male photographers talk about gear because they can't talk about emotions
 
This article from Harper's Bazaar was going around social media last week. I got to thinking about how it related to photography, and it adds a lot to our understanding of why we talk about gear so much and about photography and art so little.

Men Have No Friends and Women Bear the Burden

The basic argument is that guys suck at relating emotionally to other men because of contemporary homophobia, so they turn to women to take care of them instead.

This behavior affects the world of photography by us not facing up to our anxieties about creativity. It's a lot easier to focus on gear and distract ourselves with GAS than it is to deal with artistic risks and challenges, especially when most of the photographers on forums are men who are no help when it comes to certain things. It's a trap!

Bill Clark 05-19-2019 17:22

I agree.

Fun and games.

Archiver 05-19-2019 17:29

Absolute trash, yet another example of third wave feminism vilifying men and upholding women as paragons of martyrish virtue. Of course that article is going to be in Harpers Bazaar, it's a magazine that has always catered to women. In the same pages, you'll find articles about style, gossip and beauty tips. That's the market Harpers is playing to.

No, we don't talk about gear because of contemporary homophobia, that's just nuts. We talk about gear because we like it! I get a thrill from seeing and handling a well crafted instrument of any kind, be it a watch, a knife, a gun or a camera. I also love the artistry and craftsmanship that goes into a fountain pen.

I have no qualms talking about my artistic challenges with likeminded male photographers, artists and film makers. I'm not saying that many women aren't doing the emotional work in a lot of relationships, but to say that we talk about gear because we're afraid of appearing to be a homosexual is just wrong.

nickthetasmaniac 05-19-2019 17:38

'You will not promote, belabor, or condemn any political or religious ideology during forum discussion.'

There's only one place this discussion is likely to go, if it isn't there already.

Thou shall not talk politics.

Bill Clark 05-19-2019 17:38

When I was in business, my best associate photographers were women. I found they viewed the world with very different eyes than men. I enjoyed their help and it was always a learning experience for me. We compliment each other and we were successful together.

Archiver 05-19-2019 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickthetasmaniac (Post 2888946)
'You will not promote, belabor, or condemn any political or religious ideology during forum discussion.'

There's only one place this discussion is likely to go, if it isn't there already.

Thou shall not talk politics.


My apologies. It won't happen again.

narsuitus 05-19-2019 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by aizan (Post 2888939)
male photographers talk about gear because they can't talk about emotions

You have hurt this man's feelings.

Steve M. 05-19-2019 18:32

I, personally, can talk about emotions until the cows home...... but who would want to do that? I'd rather talk about women, bikes, cars, food and gear, in that order.

peterm1 05-19-2019 18:43

Does this mean that women talk about emotions because they cannot discuss gear? That is at least as plausible. Anyway there is too much damn emoting if you ask me. :). I am an old school guy. Instead of getting angry or discussing my emotions I grow tumors and die younger (Thank you Woody Allen) :) I do it to please the feminists in my life. :) :) :)

Ko.Fe. 05-19-2019 18:54

If you look at any developed and established forum, most significant part of are threads with pictures. On dedicated threads and in forum galleries. Gear talk is not something prevalent.
Maybe on dpreivew. But not on RFF and P.O.T.N.

One of the meaning of Bazaar in Russian is "bla-bla-bla".
To be more correct "BS". Birds poop. We have term "birds bazaar".
Bringing homophobia as argument is ridiculous act of cowardliness. Most of the forums are populated by people from developed world.

But these days if place is predominately male it becomes target for ideology.
If males wants to talk about cameras and lenses somehow it is wrong.
According to these ideology posting family pictures on forums must be act of abuse, I guess, not act of positive emotions. And if we post street candid of woman, we must be prosecuted. Days of GW "women are beautiful" are gone.


I'm taking pictures of trees which are getting killed due to lousy development, my heart bleeds, but I'm talking by pictures. On FB I have talk with local female activist. She gives no crap for those trees. Zero emotions.
Pinkasov told same thing I feel later. HCB took pictures of Soviet Union which brings deep emotions. But what to talk? Emotions are something personal and deep in every person mind.

Entire thing described in OP is idiotic. 99% of photography has nothing to do with art. Photography is something very different. It is documentary most and foremost.
I posted series of Hamilton, Moscow and Canada here. We have authors from Warsaw, Hanoi, Maine and so on. We have series taken on the world tour on motorbikes.
It is family pictures (Raid). And it is good spending of time for all of us. Take a picture and look at bokeh. It is nothing, but emotional. :)

stompyq 05-19-2019 19:20

Cannot seem to get away from this garbage. Even in a photography forum. Mods kindly take this stupid post down before the soyboys come defending it

nickthetasmaniac 05-19-2019 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by stompyq (Post 2888958)
Mods kindly take this stupid post down before the soyboys come defending it

I'd love to know who you mean by the 'soyboys'?

Rayt 05-19-2019 19:46

I used to ride with a motorcycle club so of course we talk about bikes and bike related gear when we hang out. But the ride itself is the therapy no need for words. We ride in some pretty challenging terrain like up and down PCH 1 at high speeds. If you are not worthy you won't be able to keep up so the club is more about the ride and not so much about the gear. My friend stayed in front of the pack with a lowly 500CC twin ahead of the the 1100cc Suzuki's so there's your proof!

With photography the gear is the common denominator where anyone with a wallet can participate. I would like to join a photo club where everyone are required to post GOOD photos and able talk about why he/she thinks it is a good photo. But apparently not everyone can take a good photo but anyone can buy a new lens or camera and talk about bokeh, contrast and resolution.

Keith 05-19-2019 20:25

This will go nowhere because 99% of this forum is male and at least half of that 99% will resent the proposition being put forward by the article the OP posted. :rolleyes:

gavinlg 05-19-2019 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archiver (Post 2888944)
Absolute trash, yet another example of third wave feminism vilifying men and upholding women as paragons of martyrish virtue. Of course that article is going to be in Harpers Bazaar, it's a magazine that has always catered to women. In the same pages, you'll find articles about style, gossip and beauty tips. That's the market Harpers is playing to.

No, we don't talk about gear because of contemporary homophobia, that's just nuts. We talk about gear because we like it! I get a thrill from seeing and handling a well crafted instrument of any kind, be it a watch, a knife, a gun or a camera. I also love the artistry and craftsmanship that goes into a fountain pen.

I have no qualms talking about my artistic challenges with likeminded male photographers, artists and film makers. I'm not saying that many women aren't doing the emotional work in a lot of relationships, but to say that we talk about gear because we're afraid of appearing to be a homosexual is just wrong.

Agreed on every account and well said. The new wave of extreme progressivism and the constant pandering to identity politics is dangerous. I don’t want to see it come into my hobbies and life pursuits.

Larry Cloetta 05-19-2019 21:36

Men here are already getting emotional. So there!

p.giannakis 05-19-2019 21:38

I work in this field day in and day out for years. This is another one of those very popular in the internet pop psychology articles (written by a comedian), replicating ideas of feminazation of men as antidote to so called "toxic masculinity". Basically it uses one stereotype to treat another. It is as shallow as any psychology article can be in a magazine like Harper's bazaar.

Ccoppola82 05-19-2019 22:00

I work as a professional artist and have some experience working with both men and women about their creative work. From my limited pool of people, what I've noticed over the past 20 years in the industry is that men discussing or critiquing or ASKING for critique have always been far more open and accepting of conversation. They don't tend to take things personally and are more willing to view their work objectively from a distance to get from point A in their work to point B. Getting way off topic here, but in general I think men tend to be curious problem solvers which is reflected in gear talk. Much of the gear talk I've seen here or other forums is generally someone new or curious about the type of results one might get from using film x with lens y etc. There is a wealth of information on here and the more experienced members are passing the torch to us newer folks by taking the time to share their knowledge. Style should never be limited by lack of technical ability. Gear talk and understanding the technical aspect of photography is a big step toward creating a style with intention. Sorry for the long post.

CMur12 05-19-2019 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith (Post 2888965)
This will go nowhere because 99% of this forum is male and at least half of that 99% will resent the proposition being put forward by the article the OP posted. :rolleyes:


Agreed. I would like to hear from some of the female members of this forum, although with all of the aggression expressed so far, I wouldn't blame them for sitting this one out.



- Murray

Archiver 05-19-2019 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMur12 (Post 2888975)
Agreed. I would like to hear from some of the female members of this forum, although with all of the aggression expressed so far, I wouldn't blame them for sitting this one out.

- Murray


We're always more than respectful of the female members here, and none of the so-called 'aggression' in this thread has been directed at women. Rather, people are expressing their distaste for identity and sexuality politics which have worked their way into so many spaces, and now even into our hitherto untainted haven of photographic bliss.

I agree with the forum rule that says politics shouldn't be a part of discussion. Most of the time it creates more conflict and rifts than its worth, and no one is convinced of the other side's perspective.

As for the women here, they talk about gear as well! Maggie Osterberg loves her M9-P, and our lovely Helen is utterly in love with her Leicas.

tunalegs 05-19-2019 23:17

The article may have a point, but I don't see the connection to talking about gear. Women photographers talk about gear too. And homosexual photographers talk about gear as well. So what then? Does everybody talk about technical specifications because of creepy psychological issues? Or?

There is a certain strain of popular masculinity that is anti-feelings, anti-romance, and fear of showing the slightest affection towards other men, but photography has never been poetry. The sorts of people, across all genders, that are attracted to photography tend to be more technically minded sorts.


I have however noticed, that it seems the more one talks about their gear, the less likely they are to actually use it to make photos. There's got to be something to that!

Keith 05-19-2019 23:38

I think it is connected to the tendency of certain groups to talk about objects rather than subjects ... the objects certainly don't have to be cameras though! I also think it is more common in men than in women and that women generally do communicate on a more emotional level.

PunkFunkDunk 05-20-2019 00:09

male photographers talk about gear because they can't talk about emotions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tunalegs (Post 2888979)
... but photography has never been poetry ... !

The ears of Robert Frank are burning in Nova Scotia. He never talked shop either.

tunalegs 05-20-2019 00:21

In the popular perception of arts, poets and their work had a certain image to the uninitiated. It is safe to say that photography did not/does not have similar connotations in popular culture.

On that topic, it is interesting to note that the past half century has seen much effort expended on "toughening" up the perception of poetry.

CharlesDAMorgan 05-20-2019 00:25

I'm on a wine forum, a car forum (not much now) and this forum. All are predominantly male.

I long ago decided the reason why all talked about gear, acquisitions, experiences with gear/wine/cars is that you can't spend all your waking hours drinking/racing/taking photographs, so talking about them is the next best thing (although a friend of mine did try to achieve the drinking all day long, but he was a full blown alcofrolic and in the end his liver went and that was the end of that).

The article really is pure drivel though!

Pherdinand 05-20-2019 00:26

I always get horny when i look at street shots of hot women here in the gallery.
What?? It's an emotion! Can i not talk about emotions?

Anyone wants to give me a hug now?

Pherdinand 05-20-2019 00:36

I am a photographer AND i am a poet! how about that!
(ok, i suck at both but anyway)
And i like talking gear too, and i am not ashamed hugging a (male) friend!

peterm1 05-20-2019 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pherdinand (Post 2888989)
I always get horny when i look at street shots of hot women here in the gallery.
What?? It's an emotion! Can i not talk about emotions?

Anyone wants to give me a hug now?



So you are saying that you feel like Steve Martin in the movie L.A. Story.

One of the great comedic scenes in movies..............................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsN40iv5nzg

retinax 05-20-2019 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by p.giannakis (Post 2888970)
I work in this field day in and day out for years. This is another one of those very popular in the internet pop psychology articles (written by a comedian), replicating ideas of feminazation of men as antidote to so called "toxic masculinity". Basically it uses one stereotype to treat another. It is as shallow as any psychology article can be in a magazine like Harper's bazaar.

It certainly is shallow and the idealisation of more or less traditional female behaviours, which have developed as a compliment to traditional male ones, is unreflected and silly.
Nevertheless traditional gender roles are ***** up, for both genders, and leave us all with a bunch of difficulties - the world is not going back to a state where these roles can stand unquestioned. The proposition that men are often caught up in a role that makes emotionally opening up to our peers difficult for us is true, I think. That doesn't need to devalue men's shop talk. Which btw the article doesn't, I don't know where the op got that from.
Extreme focus on technical stuff is an easy way out of artistic or other problems that is more prevalent among men. Most of us here are guilty of that, I certainly am. But regardless if that is sometimes an escape, it's ok and expected, it is a gear forum after all. The other extreme is making the personal into an absolute and losing contact with my more or less objective reality. Good art, or anything else, is only made when both of these problems are overcome.

Archiver 05-20-2019 00:56

Internet hug to Pherdinand!


So, I just cooked myself a beautifully simple casserole for dinner tonight, sliced chunks of beef with carrots, beans and cauliflower, seasoned with salt and rosemary, oven roasted for two and a half hours, and served with some brown rice. I'm at the computer cranking out some client work which needs maximum emotional impact (a short sporting highlight reel) and mulling over the rest of the week's projects. This is me, being non-political and a normal guy, hahaha.


For a forum supposedly overrun by gear talk, I quite regularly see male posters talk about their concerns, their questions, and their personal quests in their work.

Keith 05-20-2019 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archiver (Post 2888996)
Internet hug to Pherdinand!


So, I just cooked myself a beautifully simple casserole for dinner tonight, sliced chunks of beef with carrots, beans and cauliflower, seasoned with salt and rosemary, oven roasted for two and a half hours, and served with some brown rice. I'm at the computer cranking out some client work which needs maximum emotional impact (a short sporting highlight reel) and mulling over the rest of the week's projects. This is me, being non-political and a normal guy, hahaha.


For a forum supposedly overrun by gear talk, I quite regularly see male posters talk about their concerns, their questions, and their personal quests in their work.


I like your food Archiver! lol

I'm having a chorizo and vege stew with carrots, potatoes, choko, sweet potato and various spices and crushed tomatoes. I'll be having it with it with long grained white rice and some fresh made wholemeal flat bread. Fresh parsley in that stew from my garden I'll add!

:p:p:p:p:p

Archiver 05-20-2019 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith (Post 2888997)
I like your food Archiver! lol

I'm having a chorizo and vege stew with carrots, potatoes, choko, sweet potato and various spices and crushed tomatoes. I'll be having it with it with long grained white rice and some fresh made wholemeal flat bread. Fresh parsley in that stew from my garden I'll add!

:p:p:p:p:p


OMG that sounds fantastic, I need to up my food game! :D

David Hughes 05-20-2019 02:31

So no one loves their Leica?


Regards, David

Freakscene 05-20-2019 03:55

On the weekend I shot some ducks (legally with a registered firearm) and had a long conversation with two men, one my age, one six years old, about the ethics of killing and the complex feelings killing brings up in many people.

Tonight, I am having duck with blood orange sauce, field mushrooms I foraged on the way back from the duck swamp stuffed with home grown herbs and fennel, cheese made by a neighbour, baby zucchini from the garden, and a nice glass of 2004 red that just happened to be in the cellar.

I find Leicas stirring, as I do many nicely made exquisitely designed machines. I have seen terrible, depressingly ordinarily bad, surprising, decent and wondrously amazing things. They all influence me. I particularly dislike being told what makes me how I am and how it influences me when the author is generalising and knows nothing about me specifically or what it means.

Marty

ptpdprinter 05-20-2019 04:40

The article was written by a woman and appears in a women's magazine. What did you expect her to say? The author's credentials: she is a" comedian, writer, and storyteller."

Ko.Fe. 05-20-2019 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptpdprinter (Post 2889025)
The article was written by a woman and appears in a women's magazine. What did you expect her to say? The author's credentials: she is a" comedian, writer, and storyteller."

More like propaganda spreader. According to her doctrine every male person who participated in cars, photo, watches forums is homophobic.
I guess, every person who is willing to learn, ask, share and argue from technical perspective is homophobic.

Out to Lunch 05-20-2019 05:13

The link between the article in question and 'gear' or 'photography' discussions on this forum is a figment of the imagination of the OP.

The author of the article is specialized in the 'men vs. women' genre and has a string of similar articles to her name. It pays her rent... in Chamonix, France. One of these towns in the world where the underprivileged and downtrodden eke out an existence. :D

peterm1 05-20-2019 05:15

Truth is, I can talk about emotions...........I just don't want to, or need to for that matter, well, not all the time in any event. There is a lot to be said for strength of character, stoicism, keeping a stiff upper lip and getting on with life in the face of adversity. Isn't that what we men have been doing for time immemorial? God, the British built the largest empire the world has ever seen on stiff upper lips and a stoic attitude to adversity. Leg's been eaten by a tiger? Never mind old chum, you've still got another! Now get off that bally bed and go off to discover some more natives to oppress. (I am having a laugh of course - which is another way we men have of dealing with emotions that feminists do not understand, earnest, humorless lot that they are.)

My point being that this does not mean we do not have emotions. It just means we deal with them differently to women. Why this damned assumption that we have to behave like women - what privileges them over men and why the assumption that a "feminine" way of doing things is better, more functional or would even work for men?

I am both bemused and offended by the article author's representation of men's relationships with each other as being somehow repugnant just because feminists (who tend to both despise men and be ignorant in terms of their understanding of them in any event) do not care for it. When a man slaps another man on the back and calls him an "old b*stard" or when we make jokes at each other's expense it is our way of saying "I love you dude" without actually having to say that. We know that, we understand it. And I say this....if a third wave feminist dislikes it, then that is probably a good hint that we should keep right on doing it. After all my experience is that pretty well everything that type thinks is wrong.

But because we use an idiom that in the present political climate is regarded as not politically correct we are expected to believe this is somehow representative of "toxic masculinity" (God how I hate that misused phrase and the people who misuse it with the intention of putting men down.)

Archiver 05-20-2019 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Hughes (Post 2889005)
So no one loves their Leica?


Regards, David


Haha, yes. To paraphrase Groundskeeper Willy from the Simpsons, if it wasn't a crime, I'd make my Leica my wife.

Ko.Fe. 05-20-2019 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Wijninga (Post 2889029)
... It pays her rent...in Chamonix, France. One of these towns in the world where the underprivileged and downtrodden eke out an existence. :D

Current dictator of NK spend some time in Switzerland.
And Pol Pot lived in France.


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