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-   -   Not quite getting it (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167307)

traveler_101 01-09-2019 10:35

Not quite getting it
 
I have been watching M prices increase pretty steadily over the past few years, but that seems particularly the case for the M6 - for some reason. At the same time the M7 seems reasonable in price -certainly when you consider it is newer and has a semi-automatic mode.

Right now in the RFF classifieds - $1700 asking price for a M6 (sold), and $2000 for a M7. Why?

Sumarongi 01-09-2019 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler_101 (Post 2860241)
I have been watching M prices increase pretty steadily over the past few years, but that seems particularly the case for the M6 - for some reason. At the same time the M7 seems reasonable in price -certainly when you consider it is newer and has a semi-automatic mode.

Right now in the RFF classifieds - $1700 asking price for a M6 (sold), and $2000 for a M7. Why?

Why?

Hmmmm... let's have a look here: Supply and demand is an economic model used to explain price changes in a market.

benmacphoto 01-09-2019 11:04

M6 was always considered a great entry into Leica with its classic design and built in meter.
M7 with its electronics, if they fail its an expensive repair, are going down in price.

Same reason a Nikon FM sells for more then an FE.

I remember selling an M6 of mine a few years back for $900. And recently sold one for $1600.

BLKRCAT 01-09-2019 11:18

I lust after a chrome M7 from time to time. Just because they don't hold their value doesn't mean they are bad cameras.

colker 01-09-2019 11:21

The M6 is my least favourite M so i donīt get it and i donīt care.

Any other M is more interesting to me. So keep inflating its prices and leave alone the ones i like. Thank you supply and demand.

colker 01-09-2019 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by benmacphoto (Post 2860248)
M6 was always considered a great entry into Leica with its classic design and built in meter.
M7 with its electronics, if they fail its an expensive repair, are going down in price.

Same reason a Nikon FM sells for more then an FE.

I remember selling an M6 of mine a few years back for $900. And recently sold one for $1600.


I have an FM and an FE. Both failed beyond repair.

Ccoppola82 01-09-2019 11:26

I got an m6 simply because I got a fantastic deal on it. I would not ever pay the asking prices of today for it when the M2 I have is simply a much better camera in all aspects. . No, it doesn’t have a light meter, but there are other metering options if you’re not comfortable “guessing”.

Huss 01-09-2019 11:27

The M7 is the quickest, most intuitive to use M camera with the quietest and most accurate shutter. The M6 is a very nice camera and it seems its price is rising because peeps see it as the poor man’s MP.

Want to see rising prices? check out the Zeiss Ikon ZM!

Ko.Fe. 01-09-2019 13:32

I was watching and also buying, selling M for five years now.
I see no big change. But some fluctuations.
Bessa series jumped in price more.

colker 01-09-2019 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huss (Post 2860254)
Want to see rising prices? check out the Zeiss Ikon ZM!

ZI RF prices are ridiculous.

Phil_F_NM 01-09-2019 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by colker (Post 2860288)
ZI RF prices are ridiculous.

Here we go again.
Phil Forrest

colker 01-09-2019 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM (Post 2860299)
Here we go again.
Phil Forrest

I am not going anywhere. Pay whatever is asked. "Supply and demand" whatever. Stupid prices are stupid prices no matter how you dress it.
I donīt believe in in magic cameras. Iīve been around and the cult of camera gear is nonsense.

jonmanjiro 01-09-2019 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by colker (Post 2860288)
ZI RF prices are ridiculous.

I agree. But, magic or no magic, it is also a better camera than a Leica M7 IMO (I've owned both).

Putting moderator hat on now... lets keep the conversation civil folks.

bayernfan 01-09-2019 15:13

I was considering selling a few of my more expensive pieces of photography gear that seldom see use. Given the crazy increase in prices for Leica, Rollei, Hasselblad over the past year, I've decided to keep them all as investments.

I also check in on KEH every now and then to see what they're asking for film equipment. It's ludicrous, yet people are buying...

Muju79 01-09-2019 15:14

Think about the whole compact film cameras prices inflation due to social media (mainly Youtube and Instagram) posting and reposting. The same happened for a few rangefinders and the M6 is definitely among them. Demand drives prices, no doubt.

splitimageview 01-09-2019 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler_101 (Post 2860241)
I have been watching M prices increase pretty steadily over the past few years, but that seems particularly the case for the M6 - for some reason. At the same time the M7 seems reasonable in price -certainly when you consider it is newer and has a semi-automatic mode.

Right now in the RFF classifieds - $1700 asking price for a M6 (sold), and $2000 for a M7. Why?

Asking prices are just that...

M6 Classic prices hovered in the $1000 range, plus or minus, for many years, going back to the early 2000s. I bought and sold many. The TTL was about $200 higher.

It's only recently there has been a spike.

And I bought a ZI off this site for $800 or so, back in 2008, or thereabouts. Boxed, limited edition!

How about the black Contax T3 I sold for $700, they are now going for $1500+.

:)

colker 01-09-2019 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonmanjiro (Post 2860310)
I agree. But, magic or no magic, it is also a better camera than a Leica M7 IMO (I've owned both).

I believe you. I bet the ZI AE function, VF, film change .. are better than on the M7.

Otoh build quality on Leica is better. Feel from the camera is special.

At those prices for ZI or M6 i would pay 2x more and get a new MA or MP. I believe itīs a better investment.

My favourite Leica is the M3 and itīs not a trendy camera right now so i am lucky.

colker 01-09-2019 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayernfan (Post 2860313)
I was considering selling a few of my more expensive pieces of photography gear that seldom see use. Given the crazy increase in prices for Leica, Rollei, Hasselblad over the past year, I've decided to keep them all as investments.

I also check in on KEH every now and then to see what they're asking for film equipment. It's ludicrous, yet people are buying...

Hasselblad is still cheap. Not the Xpan but the 500 cm and its lenses are still very cheap compared to original prices.

colker 01-09-2019 15:40

Next in line is the M5. Itīs a shooterīs camera.. not a gadget so a lot of them are well used. The M5 also does not play well w/ camera fashionism. ownership implies actual shooting instead of repaints, black x siolver customization for instagram and cafe meetings.

colker 01-09-2019 15:56

Cameras which are seeing rising prices are not the legendary professional workhorses. Hassselblads, Pentax 67s, Nikon F4/5/6 are reasonable. Even the Rollei 3.5 which was the legendary professional machine is still reasonable. Itīs the 2.8 F that is coveted.

Itīs the camera jewellry like Contax T3, Leica M6 (Leica had long been out of the pro game when the M6 was released. M6 and M7 are enthusiasts cameras), Zeiss Ikon that is seeing a lot of hype.

Otoh, compared to Leica lenses everything looks cheap.

B-9 01-09-2019 16:19

I have to agree with your comments @colker

My F5 was cheap. I watched the prices drop off a cliff, and now I own one and use it more than any other camera I have EVER used including those Leicas.

It's heavy, kind of ugly, and obnoxious but at the same time it feels great to hold while being virtually indestructible. Not the coolest thing to tote around for insta pics of yourself with a camera... The M6 is much prettier!

colker 01-09-2019 16:37

The photo blogs sing hymm and praise to the Rollei 2.8f. This is the camera that is expensive. Sure.. itīs lens is faster, bokeh is better.
The legendary Rollei was the 3.5 though. Because when you worked w/ Rolleis you had at least 3 bodies in the field and probably more at the studio. You donīt have time to stop and reload.. you pick another camera and keep shooting. The 3.5 is slightly lighter i believe and less expensive so.. when you want 5 bodies you get the 3.5F. When you collect fampus cameras, you buy the 2.8F.
Irving Penn shot the 3.5. A nice one costs 1k now. A nice 2.8 costs 2k. Itīs mostly hype.

Camera gear was never about hype. The best cameras were the most expensive. Except leica which was just expensive but anyway... Nikon F pro series was expensive. Hasselblad was VERY expensive. Now you can buy 2 hassleblads for the price of a Contax T3.
Instagram and social media turned cameras into the focus of photography. Itīs hobbyism. Suddenly they will drop out of fashion.

traveler_101 01-12-2019 10:58

Answering my query by referring to supply and demand doesn't get us very far. Obviously the question is what is driving demand. Here's the best answer I thought:
"Instagram and social media turned cameras into the focus of photography. Itīs hobbyism. Suddenly they will drop out of fashion."

I have photography as a hobby, but that means using the camera to take photographs. Are you saying that social media is being used to post pictures taken by film cameras or pictures of film cameras?

Thanks for the discussion of relative qualities of different M models. I am not willing to pay the price they are asking for a M6. I am looking at an M2 now -

colker 01-12-2019 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler_101 (Post 2860955)
A Are you saying that social media is being used to post pictures taken by film cameras or pictures of film cameras?

Yes! Itīs camera mythology.

Steve M. 01-12-2019 13:29

I would just buy a Hexar RF. Better than an M7. The M5 is a great camera, but I found it's size to be too much for my tastes, as a lot of people did.

Michiel Fokkema 01-12-2019 15:24

I'm buying any M7 for a reasonable price. I'm sue they go will go up 100% in a few years.

bayernfan 01-12-2019 15:48

It kind of feels like the MP price keeps the M6 and M7 in check. Without an in-production metered M camera, i suspect M6 prices would be crazy.

David Hughes 01-12-2019 15:52

Hmmm, if you look for any make or model of camera to buy on the internet you'll see the silliest range of prices possible. Worse still, there's no way of knowing which are the good ones and which are the lemons. Even the dealers don't agree...

So how can we say the prices go up and down, when no one can agree on a price?

Regards, David

Dan Daniel 01-12-2019 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Hughes (Post 2861016)
Hmmm, if you look for any make or model of camera to buy on the internet you'll see the silliest range of prices possible. Worse still, there's no way of knowing which are the good ones and which are the lemons. Even the dealers don't agree...

So how can we say the prices go up and down, when no one can agree on a price?

Regards, David

(As an aside, which is why I wish people would keep their prices up when they sell items here. Or even better, edit for final sales price. Probably one of the best data sets of informed buyers and sellers available, and one-third or more of the data it seems is thrown out and replaced with "SOLD!")

Rob-F 01-12-2019 16:39

I use my M7 as much or more than any of my other Leicas. It's often the one I reach for. I don't worry about the electronics going out. Does anyone happen to know of this actually happening?

Pioneer 01-12-2019 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-F (Post 2861022)
I use my M7 as much or more than any of my other Leicas. It's often the one I reach for. I don't worry about the electronics going out. Does anyone happen to know of this actually happening?

Likewise my ZI. I absolutely love my MA and the refined feel of that awesome shutter. But when the light is difficult, I am indoors, or I just need to get the exposure right, the ZI is the one that I use.

Besides, that viewfinder is absolutely amazing!

traveler_101 01-14-2019 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pioneer (Post 2861035)
Likewise my ZI. I absolutely love my MA and the refined feel of that awesome shutter. But when the light is difficult, I am indoors, or I just need to get the exposure right, the ZI is the one that I use.

Besides, that viewfinder is absolutely amazing!

I don't know what "ZI" is - Zeiss Ikon from before the war or what?

Leica M-A -$4,695.00 (B&H)

Leica M7 - No Longer Available (B&H), but can be had new here in Norway for 42,999 NOK or roughly $5000 US which includes a handsome 25% sales tax;

Faced with this choice I don't see why I should take a less capable camera for roughly the same price when I can get semi-automatic mode in an equally good camera. You know what I mean?

Someone said get the Konica. So I looked it up - heck the thing has automatic advance and rewind. Unnecessary and that is real vulnerability to breakdown.

Pioneer 01-14-2019 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler_101 (Post 2861472)
I don't know what "ZI" is - Zeiss Ikon from before the war or what?

Sorry. ZI = Zeiss Ikon. Latest version, not pre-war, though those are also very nice as well.

They all work, even the little Voigtlander Bessa cameras (again, recent versions) so buy what you want and enjoy it. Unless you are thinking that a camera is some kind of investment, you pick what you can afford.

Besides, it all comes down to the film and the lens. The rest is just a box with a lens mount so buy the box you can afford.

Benjamin Marks 01-14-2019 13:30

I had an M7, but I found that I overrode the auto exposure as often as I used it. At the end of the day, I wound up using the M6 (that I still have) more often. When I needed to raise money, the M7 was the best value on resale and so. . . . off it went. Don't miss it. Having said that, the M7 shutter tested more accurate than any other M I own. I never saw the results of that on film (compared to M2/M3/M5/M6), but I can imagine that it might be important to someone.

Sumarongi 01-14-2019 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler_101 (Post 2860955)
Answering my query by referring to supply and demand doesn't get us very far. Obviously the question is what is driving demand. Here's the best answer I thought:
"Instagram and social media turned cameras into the focus of photography. Itīs hobbyism. Suddenly they will drop out of fashion."

Sure. :rolleyes:

During the 1950s/60s many thought proper suits and neckties would soon drop out of fashion. Did that happen eventually?

Hint:
So far, it did not.

colker 01-14-2019 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumarongi (Post 2861533)
Sure. :rolleyes:

During the 1950s/60s many thought proper suits and neckties would soon drop out of fashion. Did that happen eventually?

Hint:
So far, it did not.

Cameras build their reputation on technical quality. Cameras are not jewelry. Itīs not made of gold and diamonds. Jewelry is investment besides passion.

Sumarongi 01-14-2019 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by colker (Post 2861554)
Cameras build their reputation on technical quality. Cameras are not jewelry. Itīs not made of gold and diamonds. Jewelry is investment besides passion.

I was *not* mentioning jewelery, was I?

Ŧ proper suits and neckties ŧ I've written —— what were you reading? :eek:

sc_rufctr 01-14-2019 16:33

My M6 has become my go to M body. (So my M3 and M4-P just sit on the shelf mostly)

Why the M6? ... It works well and there's no fuss.

I had an M7 years ago but it's a step too far IMO. It just didn't feel natural.

colker 01-14-2019 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumarongi (Post 2861575)
I was *not* mentioning jewellery, was I?

Ŧ proper suits and neckties ŧ I've written —— what were you reading? :eek:

You made a comparison. I made another. My point is clear.


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