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-   -   Is the M9 price falling with the stock market? (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166823)

mark_pw 11-16-2018 21:32

Is the M9 price falling with the stock market?
 
The price of M9 has been hovering around $3500 for some time.

I've recently found the price of M9 at $2500. :eek: Like this one.

https://ebay.to/2OOSqpk

Is the falling market hurting Leica lovers?

Contarama 11-16-2018 23:03

People who trade in Leica are putting them? If I'm not mistaken a few years back they were going for firesale prices

Leica may be a good like Hermes...really good return on investment...I wouldn't recommend investing in cameras though unless one had the wheelbase to buy the very best items and sit on them long term

Alberti 11-17-2018 00:23

I Holland they fell too, a mint M9-P copy with steel/grey leather offered for €2500 looked nice too.
They are eight-ten years old now. That puts the trade-in value at below € 1.200 I think for a regular M9 with rubber finish and heavy signs of usage.

jaapv 11-17-2018 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_pw (Post 2848618)
The price of M9 has been hovering around $3500 for some time.

I've recently found the price of M9 at $2500. :eek: Like this one.

https://ebay.to/2OOSqpk

Is the falling market hurting Leica lovers?

It is the popularity of the CL. A cheaper "real Leica" with better image quality, new at a similar price.

mod2001 11-17-2018 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv (Post 2848640)
It is the popularity of the CL.

Have my doubts here, a camera with EVF is in no way a replacement for a Rangefinder-Leica.

I think it's the popularity of the M10, I know many user with zero interest in the M240/262 who switched in the last year from the M9 to the M10 or M10-P, means more M9 on the market, means lower prices. Also quite important, the low priced M9's have often no sensor replacement like the one linked here in the first post(assuming the seller would have mentioned it if the sensor was replaced).

I would always choose a M9 with replaced sensor over a CL in this price league. Real RF and for my taste better output of the FF-CCD (don't need High-Iso). But again, thats just me.

Juergen

raid 11-17-2018 05:24

My M8 and M9 both came back to me from Leica after being repaired, and this is what I am using these days. I am now complementing these two cameras with film cameras.
I believe that the M10 made many M9 users sell their M9 cameras at lower prices. The sensor issue will always limit the selling price of an M9.

Ko.Fe. 11-17-2018 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv (Post 2848640)
It is the popularity of the CL. A cheaper "real Leica" with better image quality, new at a similar price.

New at similar price is true. The rest is "real" indeed.
It is cropper with EVF, just so-so and from many.
But I guess for snobs it is label, not camera.

Its seller from Rissia, with 23 transactions and 95 % positive.
"Matrix untested for corrosion because no lens" means it is here. Owner knows it is another thousand bucks, so he is selling it 3500-1000=2500.

raid 11-17-2018 05:30

I agree! You get what you pay for. Here, you will get a sensor that is corroded.

"Matrix untested for corrosion because no lens" means it is here. Owner knows it is another thousand bucks, so he is selling it 3500-1000=2500.

colker 11-17-2018 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contarama (Post 2848628)
People who trade in Leica are putting them? If I'm not mistaken a few years back they were going for firesale prices

Leica may be a good like Hermes...really good return on investment...I wouldn't recommend investing in cameras though unless one had the wheelbase to buy the very best items and sit on them long term

One could invest on a mechanical collectorīs Leica and come up safe. A late model digital camera as an investment? LOL.:D:eek::rolleyes:;)

willie_901 11-17-2018 05:33

Correlation does not imply causation.

And, the sample size is ridiculously small.

colker 11-17-2018 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by raid (Post 2848666)
My M8 and M9 both came back to me from Leica after being repaired, and this is what I am using these days. I am now complementing these two cameras with film cameras.
I believe that the M10 made many M9 users sell their M9 cameras at lower prices. The sensor issue will always limit the selling price of an M9.

A digital camera is about sensor performance. Sensor performance changed dramatically every 5 yrs.

A Leica M9 is part beautiful camera in your hands but part outdated electronic device just like an iPhone 5. To make matters worse itīs electronics corrode.

raid 11-17-2018 05:44

I bought a Hasselblad SWC at one stage , after getting the M9. The main goal was to keep me linked to film. I needed a special film camera, and the SWC is special. Then I bought the Zeiss Hologon 16/8, knowing that it would not work very well on digital cameras. So am I now using this lens on the M3- a film camera! Then I dug up my Standard Leica, and I am seeing myself using it again.

jammcat 11-17-2018 06:27

...or, you know, that it's a 9 year old camera with multiple quality of life issues. ;)

At its core its still a piece of technology, and one that has certainly been outpaced in the almost decade since its launch.

mod2001 11-17-2018 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by colker (Post 2848672)
Sensor performance changed dramatically every 5 yrs.

For people shooting black cats in a moonless night and want to push shadows +5 and print it in 10m size probably an argument. But for sure not for the majority of the typical M-user. Still can't see why a digital camera which was good enough 5 years ago to shoot wonderful photos isn't good enough today to do the same. But nice to see that marketing obviously works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by colker (Post 2848672)
To make matters worse its electronics corrode.

sure, thats why all my old digital and analog cams with electronics still work as also my still in use iPhone 5 as also my much much oder hifi stuff. And I'm absolut confident that the majority of M8/9's will work flawlessly the next 10 years too.

Juergen

jaapv 11-17-2018 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mod2001 (Post 2848641)
Have my doubts here, a camera with EVF is in no way a replacement for a Rangefinder-Leica.

Juergen

Not to a dyed-in-the-wool Leica connoisseur. However, a new entrant to the brand does not think our way. Having said that, I sold my M 240 and my M9 is sitting unused since I bought the CL. And me a Leica M user since 1976...:rolleyes:

bayernfan 11-17-2018 08:59

the M10 is an outstanding product. that's the primary reason.

jaapv 11-17-2018 09:14

Yes, but it is in a different price range, and the M240 and M9 are outstanding products as well.

mike3996 11-17-2018 09:15

On European used markets M9's with freshly changed sensors are regularly around 2500 EUR. I had a very bad case of GAS when there was one selling for 1950 EUR (2230 USD) that had a serviced sensor with papers. Had to pass it mainly because didn't want to give in to the GAS.

ptpdprinter 11-17-2018 09:38

There is an M9 with new sensor at the Leica Store Miami for $2195, down from $2395.

Edit: Now sold. That was quick.

colker 11-17-2018 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by mod2001 (Post 2848686)
For people shooting black cats in a moonless night and want to push shadows +5 and print it in 10m size probably an argument. But for sure not for the majority of the typical M-user. Still can't see why a digital camera which was good enough 5 years ago to shoot wonderful photos isn't good enough today to do the same. But nice to see that marketing obviously works.

sure, that's why all my old digital and analog cams with electronics still work as also my still in use iPhone 5 as also my much much older hifi stuff. And I'm absolutely confident that the majority of M8/9's will work flawlessly the next 10 years too.

Fully agree, but doesn't really fit your first counter argument against a digital cam with an older sensor.

Juergen

Itīs not marketing: itīs technology. Itīs a better camera from a functional viewpoint.
I can shoot ballet and freeze movement at 4000 asa using original theater lightning when 5 yrs a go i would have to light the entire set w/ strobes!

Deny all you want but old digital is worth nothing for good reason.

FrozenInTime 11-17-2018 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv (Post 2848694)
Not to a dyed-in-the-wool Leica connoisseur. However, a new entrant to the brand does not think our way. Having said that, I sold my M 240 and my M9 is sitting unused since I bought the CL. And me a Leica M user since 1976...:rolleyes:

M user since 1984. My M9-P was sitting unused since it came back from sensor upgrade last year.
Having a M10 and film Ms; after trialing a TL2 with M adapter, I was impressed and sold the M9-P and all my Hasselblad lenses bar the 80mm to fund a CL and TL lenses. I even like the kit zoom :eek:
I think the CL and it’s small lenses is having a bigger influence than the SL for many a M user.
I felt the M9 was a liability.

David Hughes 11-17-2018 11:05

A lot of factors affect prices, especially for second-hand stuff.

People come back from holiday and the bills come in, get paid and then the festive season looms and they start planning but not spending. The we get nearer to Christmas and they start to spend. Then in January the bills come in and so it goes on, and on, and on...

Regards, David

jaapv 11-17-2018 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrozenInTime (Post 2848714)
M user since 1984. My M9-P was sitting unused since it came back from sensor upgrade last year.
Having a M10 and film Ms; after trialing a TL2 with M adapter, I was impressed and sold the M9-P and all my Hasselblad lenses bar the 80mm to fund a CL and TL lenses. I even like the kit zoom :eek:
I think the CL and it’s small lenses is having a bigger influence than the SL for many a M user.
I felt the M9 was a liability.

Actually I think the CL is the true carrier of the Leica concept: High quality in all aspects, small, light and versatile, as little as possible between the photographer and the subject.
That "kit zoom" is a superb lens and bears no relationship to run-of-the-mill "kit zooms" of other brands :).

Michael Markey 11-17-2018 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv (Post 2848729)
Actually I think the CL is the true carrier of the Leica concept: High quality in all aspects, small, light and versatile, as little as possible between the photographer and the subject.
That "kit zoom" is a superb lens and bears no relationship to run-of-the-mill "kit zooms" of other brands :).

From what I`ve read your assessment of the CL is correct.

As regards the earlier comment made regarding the lack of rangefinder I think in todays world that simply denotes a shape of camera.

Emile de Leon 11-17-2018 13:55

M9 is getting pretty old now..and in 5 years..well.
...maybe they should just reissue it..
Used Leica is in a bubble pricewise..part of the Leica myth and strategy..
Probably what camera dealers are actually payin for them wholesale.. is the real price they are worth on the high end..
But if you want a rangefinder..there is only 1..
CL..seems to be a nice cam..but no flippy screen..no rangefinder..nope..

Rob-F 11-17-2018 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv (Post 2848640)
It is the popularity of the CL. A cheaper "real Leica" with better image quality, new at a similar price.

Uh, better image quality? Better than my M9? In what way? I'm pretty happy with my M9. Well, if prices keep falling, maybe I'll add an M9P. I know, it doesn't really do anything that my M9 can't. And I don't really need a quieter shutter. But I like its looks! But it wouldn't occur to me to need a CL. What is the crop factor, 1.5:1?

mark_pw 11-17-2018 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-F (Post 2848773)
Uh, better image quality? Better than my M9? In what way? I'm pretty happy with my M9. Well, if prices keep falling, maybe I'll add an M9P. I know, it doesn't really do anything that my M9 can't. And I don't really need a quieter shutter. But I like its looks! But it wouldn't occur to me to need a CL. What is the crop factor, 1.5:1?

Talking about look. I think the M10 is great. It's of the same shape of film M6.

I think it's the fate of digital Leica to have a falling price. The falling stock market is just a catalyst to give it a push. :bang:

Alberti 11-17-2018 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by colker (Post 2848672)
A Leica M9 is part beautifull camera in your hands but part outdated electronic device just like an Iphone 5. To make matters worse itīs electronics corrode.

Yes, I have had corrosion detected at the inspection (take-in department) of Leitz in Solms of the mechanics (plugs and switches) in both the M8 and MM1 when I sent them in for maintenance. So yes - from my experience and from what I read from others - that first generation of camera had electronics parts that have a propensity to corrode.
That kind of thing should also have lead to a faster falling price.
People just kept them for their superior pictures (color, depth and liquidity of image derived from the true CCD) compared to the newer sibling M and now with the M10 that at last (but enough?) seems like a big improvement to them.]

jaapv 11-17-2018 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-F (Post 2848773)
Uh, better image quality? Better than my M9? In what way? I'm pretty happy with my M9. Well, if prices keep falling, maybe I'll add an M9P. I know, it doesn't really do anything that my M9 can't. And I don't really need a quieter shutter. But I like its looks! But it wouldn't occur to me to need a CL. What is the crop factor, 1.5:1?

I find a crop factor completely irrelevant for judging a camera. i have an M9, Monochrom1 and CL. Of the three I use the CL daily and the MM when I feel like taking B&W. The M9 sees little use. I like the output from the CL better.

willie_901 11-18-2018 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mod2001 (Post 2848686)
For people shooting black cats in a moonless night and want to push shadows +5 ...

Believe it or not, the sensor characteristics that enable "shooting black cats in a moonless night and want to push shadows +5" are also make a difference when shooting in very bright light and letting shadows be shadows. Both situations benefit from high signal-to-noise ratios and in digital imaging signal-to-noise is the limiting factor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mod2001 (Post 2848686)
...And I'm absolutely confident that the majority of M8/9's will work flawlessly the next 10 years too.

In 2010 many people who bought M9s in 2010 thought that too. But in 2015 they realized things turned out differently.
[/quote]

David Hughes 11-18-2018 07:41

BTW, I don't see a link because, in all the years I've been reading about them new and secon-hand, I've never seen or heard someone say I think I'll sell some of my shares in ........... and buy an M9 or any other camera.


Regards, David

mod2001 11-18-2018 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie_901 (Post 2848814)
Believe it or not, the sensor characteristics that enable "shooting black cats in a moonless night and want to push shadows +5" are also make a difference when shooting in very bright light and letting shadows be shadows. Both situations benefit from high signal-to-noise ratios and in digital imaging signal-to-noise is the limiting factor

The limiting factor is more often the mindset of people who think they can't take good photos without the newest available (sensor technology) ;) And again, we are talking about the M9 and their typical and mostly private usage, a camera which was capable to deliver great photos in 2010 and I can't absolutely no reason, let alone proof, why it shouldn't do the same in 2018 or 2025.

Juergen

colker 11-18-2018 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by mod2001 (Post 2848848)
The limiting factor is more often the mindset of people who think they can't take good photos without the newest available (sensor technology) ;) And again, we are talking about the M9 and their typical and mostly private usage, a camera which was capable to deliver great photos in 2010 and I can't absolutely no reason, let alone proof, why it shouldn't do the same in 2018 or 2025.

Juergen

Itīs a digital camera, Leica or not. Digital cameras lose value every week. Because digital technology is entirely different from film cameras: the camera is the film. Try selling an outdated batch of color film and see what happens!
Sure you can shoot good pictures on an M9, M8, Epson or on afreaking nikon D100.... but new CMOS sensors are on a whole new level. Not only that but Leica cannot service old sensors like it can fix old film cameras. How fun is that?
Peopleīs mindset is limiting on every camera.

Archiver 11-18-2018 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv (Post 2848640)
It is the popularity of the CL. A cheaper "real Leica" with better image quality, new at a similar price.

Jaap, I tend to trust your judgement in all things Leica, particularly the M range. It's surprising to see you say that the CL has better image quality than the M9, as I find it difficult to believe that a camera based on a modern 24mp aps-c sensor would have better IQ than the M9. I haven't tried a CL yet, and I'm always on the lookout for something from Leica which beats the M9 as a lower cost, so I'm interested in what makes you say that.

jsrockit 11-18-2018 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_pw (Post 2848618)
The price of M9 has been hovering around $3500 for some time.

I've recently found the price of M9 at $2500. :eek: Like this one.

They've been $2500 for a long time and honestly, it is still too much. The camera is 9 years old now.

shawn 11-18-2018 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-F (Post 2848773)
Uh, better image quality? Better than my M9? In what way? I'm pretty happy with my M9. Well, if prices keep falling, maybe I'll add an M9P. I know, it doesn't really do anything that my M9 can't. And I don't really need a quieter shutter. But I like its looks! But it wouldn't occur to me to need a CL. What is the crop factor, 1.5:1?

From an objective standpoint the CL has several stops more dynamic range. In other words it will either capture 2 stops more shadow details or 2 stops more highlight detail depending upon how you want to think about it. That is directly related to its better high ISO abilities.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Chart...0CL,Leica%20M9

Shawn

raid 11-18-2018 16:16

This is proof of how many people value old Leica cameras. The M9 is/was a great camera. It really is.

colker 11-18-2018 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by raid (Post 2848929)
This is proof of how many people value old Leica cameras. The M9 is/was a great camera. It really is.

Only Leica can pull that: if Nikon, Fuji or Canon had you send one of their models back to japan to replace a corroded sensor, their rep would be destroyed. But Leica does it and still charges 8k on their next model.:angel:

raid 11-18-2018 16:32

Leica is still "in". It is a symbol of top quality.

Ko.Fe. 11-18-2018 16:50

Here is about low light M9 bashing. Almost all of the pictures I posted on this page https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/...124201&page=45 are low light.

This one was published in local press:
https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/...postcount=1788

And I took these pictures under light condition. which production truck crew described as dark.

https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/...postcount=1792


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