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-   -   Color or Black and White (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168764)

ajtruhan 06-13-2019 15:30

Color or Black and White
 
In the scenario that you are developing at home and scanning the film- what is the point of black and white film? Is there any reason to not shoot everything with, say, Ektar 100 and convert to black and white if desired. Similar to shooting in raw.

Developing c41 is easier, faster, and you get all that extra information. D76 does have a longer shelf life, but thatís a minor benefit.

Ektar 120 is cheaper than trix 120 as well. (B and h right now)

Why not always shoot color?

Ko.Fe. 06-13-2019 20:12

You are missinformed.
Here is bulk bw film. More cheaper than any c-41 film. And here is hc-110 and some other developers which lasts for years.
Not to mention what conversion is not looking as good as real bw film.
You are not getting c-41 temperatures instant, it takes time to get to this temperatures, so it is not fast.
If bw fixer and developer to be used at same dilution as c-41, then bw is just as fast. Five min to develop, two minutes to fix.

You have D for your homework.

skucera 06-13-2019 20:27

The choice depends on whether you're going to print color in your dark room, or if you're going to scan the negatives and use Photoshop. I find I like to shoot about equal numbers of b/w and color rolls in a year, but printing b/w in the dark room is much easier and faster than color. Really, being able to use a safelight is just much more convenient than doing everything in absolute darkness by feel (as I have to do with color). As a result of this, I usually just send my color rolls out for commercial developing, and then I scan the negatives and do Photoshop. At that point, I'm not so far away from just using a totally digital color workflow like I use for my iPhone. B/W is a dark room morning well spent.



Also, it's hard to get a realistic color transformation filter to turn color into b/w in a way that looks panchromatic like real b/w film.



Scott

mcfingon 06-13-2019 22:15

I would agree that there is a different look to making black and white images from colour film. If I want to shoot B&W I would rather use silver-based film and develop the old-fashioned way. Otherwise, I may as well shoot the images on my digital camera and convert them to B&W, which works OK but once again doesn't look like real film shots to me.
John Mc

CharlesDAMorgan 06-13-2019 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. (Post 2893926)
You are missinformed.
Here is bulk bw film. More cheaper than any c-41 film. And here is hc-110 and some other developers which lasts for years.
Not to mention what conversion is not looking as good as real bw film.
You are not getting c-41 temperatures instant, it takes time to get to this temperatures, so it is not fast.
If bw fixer and developer to be used at same dilution as c-41, then bw is just as fast. Five min to develop, two minutes to fix.

You have D for your homework.

Spot on as always Ko.Fe I develop both colour and Black and white and I find the claim that colour is easier totally baffling.

Getting something to 38c is considerably harder than 20C, keeping it there while developing in a room half that temperature, with constant agitation is not easier than B&W. It's a crashing bore.

Having to keep note of how many films developed, of what speed, and then having considerably extended Blix times adds another layer of tedium.

Then the notion that converting from colour to B&W achieves the same results has no basis in any reality I've experienced.

ajtruhan 06-14-2019 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. (Post 2893926)
You are missinformed.
Here is bulk bw film. More cheaper than any c-41 film. And here is hc-110 and some other developers which lasts for years.
Not to mention what conversion is not looking as good as real bw film.
You are not getting c-41 temperatures instant, it takes time to get to this temperatures, so it is not fast.
If bw fixer and developer to be used at same dilution as c-41, then bw is just as fast. Five min to develop, two minutes to fix.

You have D for your homework.

I've read this several times and unfortunately I can't help but to interpret it in a condescending tone (grading comment at the end.)

To each their own.

retinax 06-14-2019 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajtruhan (Post 2893975)
I've read this several times and unfortunately I can't help but to interpret it in a condescending tone (grading comment at the end.)

To each their own.


Agree about the tone.

Not to excuse it, but your post with the statement that C-41 was easier and faster, without explanation why you thought so, perhaps invites less than understanding replies.

pvdhaar 06-14-2019 04:41

B&W and colour film have different spectral response, and their film base is different (slightly purplish/white versus orange); so they'll give different results when printed or scanned as B&W. Even XP-2, which is a dedicated C41 process B&W film, won't give the same results as silver-gelatin. I tried that for a while, when 1 hour labs were still abundant and cheap, but found the results lacking in punch.

As an aside, I agree that the 'homework' remark was not appropriate..

ajtruhan 06-14-2019 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by retinax (Post 2893977)
Agree about the tone.

Not to excuse it, but your post with the statement that C-41 was easier and faster, without explanation why you thought so, perhaps invites less than understanding replies.

Thanks. To explain: using D76 and Tri-X it takes 9:45 to develop, 30 seconds of stop, and 10 minutes of fix, 20 minutes wash, 30 seconds to photoflo. Thatís about 40 minutes. I have to adjust the temp to 68f from my cold basement.

Using unicolor powder kit it takes 3.5 minutes 6.5 to blix, 30 seconds to stabilize, 3 minutes to wash and 30 seconds to photoflo. Thatís less than 15 minutes. I also have to achieve 102f but it doesnít appear to be as much a hurdle as itís reputation.

I can only ship chemicals to my house so that limits me to powder. Iím happily committed to d76 and triX because that eliminates those variables and allows me to concentrate on experimenting in other ways.

I cannot find 120 film in bulk.
This is a hobby of mine, Iím not pro.
Iím scanning the film.

any further questions are welcome.

ajtruhan 06-14-2019 05:22

I haven’t tried constant agitation - instructions are to invert 4 times every 30 seconds.

davidnewtonguitars 06-14-2019 05:27

Our kitchen is my developing lab, and I have made the decision not to stink it up with c-41 chemistry.

wwfloyd 06-14-2019 05:32

Temperature control -- much more difficult with C-41 kit, working in the kitchen, with no special temp control equipment.



Chemical cost -- Unicolor kit is much more expensive than BW (which comes to less than 30 cents a roll).


Also annoying, is that with my stainless tanks and plastic tops, high temps and agitation of color processing make the tops want to leak and/or slide off.

css9450 06-14-2019 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajtruhan (Post 2893987)
Using unicolor powder kit it takes 3.5 minutes 6.5 to blix, 30 seconds to stabilize, 3 minutes to wash and 30 seconds to photoflo. That’s less than 15 minutes. I also have to achieve 102f but it doesn’t appear to be as much a hurdle as it’s reputation.


I never thought of paring down the time to a bare minimum was an important goal to pursue, but maybe it is for some. I'd be more worried about over- or under-developing my films if I go too fast or slow pouring in and out my developer (on a 3.5-minute schedule); the fourteen-minute time I use with Delta 100 is a lot more forgiving if I have to sneeze and thus take twenty seconds longer pouring out the developer.

retinax 06-14-2019 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajtruhan (Post 2893987)
Thanks. To explain: using D76 and Tri-X it takes 9:45 to develop, 30 seconds of stop, and 10 minutes of fix, 20 minutes wash, 30 seconds to photoflo. Thatís about 40 minutes. I have to adjust the temp to 68f from my cold basement.

Using unicolor powder kit it takes 3.5 minutes 6.5 to blix, 30 seconds to stabilize, 3 minutes to wash and 30 seconds to photoflo. Thatís less than 15 minutes. I also have to achieve 102f but it doesnít appear to be as much a hurdle as itís reputation.

I can only ship chemicals to my house so that limits me to powder. Iím happily committed to d76 and triX because that eliminates those variables and allows me to concentrate on experimenting in other ways.

I cannot find 120 film in bulk.
This is a hobby of mine, Iím not pro.
Iím scanning the film.

any further questions are welcome.


There is no 120 film in bulk, would be very hard to load.
I see nothing wrong with your preference, I prefer the look of black and white film in black and white.

If you wanted to, your black and white process could be streamlined a little and would probably end up similar to C-41 if not shorter considering the set up, temperature adjust and clean up times. Most of all, why do you wash black and white longer than C41? Isn't the same thing happening?
Why can only powder be shipped to you? Shipping of liquids is no problem where I live.

charjohncarter 06-14-2019 07:19

One other huge benefit with your C-41 develop and scan method is having a scanner with Digital Ice.

ajtruhan 06-14-2019 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by retinax (Post 2894003)
There is no 120 film in bulk, would be very hard to load.
I see nothing wrong with your preference, I prefer the look of black and white film in black and white.

If you wanted to, your black and white process could be streamlined a little and would probably end up similar to C-41 if not shorter considering the set up, temperature adjust and clean up times. Most of all, why do you wash black and white longer than C41? Isn't the same thing happening?
Why can only powder be shipped to you? Shipping of liquids is no problem where I live.

I appreciate your preference of true black and white.

Youíre right I could up my dev temp, also use it straight for maybe half the time, but once I achieved success I didnít want to toy with it.

I wash twice as long as the fix time per instructions of Kodak fixer. The unicolor instructions advise 3 minutes for color.

If I search liquids at b and h or elsewhere I get a store pickup only message. Maybe I assumed there was some sort of regulation preventing shipment.

Iíve wanted to try tmax but itís special developer is liquid and I could not have it delivered. Iím in the states. Where do you reside and what is your store?

css9450 06-14-2019 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajtruhan (Post 2894009)
Iím in the states. Where do you reside and what is your store?


Try Freestyle. They're in California, but stuff like that (and other items like Rodinal) they ship FedEx ground and it goes by train.

ajtruhan 06-14-2019 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by css9450 (Post 2894012)
Try Freestyle. They're in California, but stuff like that (and other items like Rodinal) they ship FedEx ground and it goes by train.

Will do, thanks!

sara 06-14-2019 20:25

I have test converted colour film into b/w and firstly, it's muddy and I can try and replicate if it was shot on b/w but it's still not the same. You can't get the tones right...

...and then you realise you spent more time trying to convert it to b/w when you could've just shot it it b/w.

ajtruhan 06-16-2019 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by sara (Post 2894138)
I have test converted colour film into b/w and firstly, it's muddy and I can try and replicate if it was shot on b/w but it's still not the same. You can't get the tones right...

...and then you realise you spent more time trying to convert it to b/w when you could've just shot it it b/w.

Good idea. Out of curiosity- what film did you use and what black and white film did you compare it to? What did you use to convert digitally? Iím thinking a photoshopped black and white layer where individual color control could work.

benlees 06-16-2019 11:20

You could develop b&w with decent results riding in the back of a pickup truck. The choice for developers for b&w is astounding- you can make your own if you want. Developing c41 or e6 at home is easy enough but b&w has much more versatility.


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