Old 05-04-2015   #161
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Originally Posted by FrozenInTime View Post
Hypothetically then :
camera A (MM) has a 10 stop dynamic range and a 14 bit depth
camera B (246) has a 12 stop dynamic range and a 12 bit depth.

camera A will have excelent tonality on low contrast scenes.
camera A will blow the highlights or lose shadow detail in harsh light.
camera B will have limited mid tone differentiation
camera B will retain more shadow and highlight detail in harsh light.

camera A is equivalent to a film with normal development
camera B is equivalent to a film with pull processing.

Is this analogy flawed ?
(Above BF inserted by me)

Assuming - as Brian is writing somewhere else - the 12 bit DR of the 246 are due to the width of the CMOSIS A/D converter, identical to the 240's A/D converter. Then there is also

camera C (240) has a 13.6 bit ("stop") dynamic range and a 14 bit depth (due to 3 channels).

Still wondering how much better the 246 is than a B/W rendered 240 image, with the right conversion algorithm. If I only shoot ISO 1600 and below, do I need both ?

Doesn't look like the 246 would give me more resolution (http://www.ultrasomething.com/photog...nd-sensibility).

Roland.
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Old 05-04-2015   #162
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Originally Posted by ferider View Post
(Above BF inserted by me)

Assuming - as Brian is writing somewhere else - the 12 bit DR of the 246 are due to the width of the CMOSIS A/D converter, identical to the 240's A/D converter. Then there is also

camera C (240) has a 13.6 bit ("stop") dynamic range and a 14 bit depth (due to 3 channels).

Still wondering how much better the 246 is than a B/W rendered 240 image, with the right conversion algorithm. If I only shoot ISO 1600 and below, do I need both ?

Doesn't look like the 246 would give me more resolution (http://www.ultrasomething.com/photog...nd-sensibility).

Roland.
Roland,

If F.I.T.'s asumptions are correct, the midrange tonality of my MM9 might not be replicated in the M-246. If this is true there is good reason for me to keep my MM9 because as far as tonality my MM9 really does it for me. The higher resolution and lower noise at higher ISO is kinda moot the way I shoot my MM9 which is basically below 800.

The M-246 still is a great camera for me for all its updates and advances. I'm thinking the M-246 well suits my 50 Lux ASPH for its highlight control, and where the higher ISO is more likely to be used on the faster lens.

My 28 Cron has broad mids and produces the broadest histograms of any lens I own, and that gets mated to my MM9 to make a match made in heaven.

I'm thinking that my old MM9 offers me perfection as far as tonality (huge mids), especially with the 28 Cron.

Ideally I would want to own both cameras if what F.I.T. suggests is true just for the difference in rendering.

Cal
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Old 05-05-2015   #163
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On reputable blog (which shall go nameless) a stranger commented both the M9M and the M-246 actually have color-filter arrays. These CFA filters are not a RGB matrix. Instead every pixel is filtered using an identical (proprietary?) bandwidth to produce the best possible B&W rendering.

I am skeptical.

Does anyone know if this is factual?
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Old 05-05-2015   #164
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That is basically correct. It would have been optically very difficult to remove the filter layer. It is basically replaced by a more or less clear glass, tinted to influence the tonal response curve of the sensor.
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Old 05-05-2015   #165
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Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
...
Congrates on your M-246. ...
Thanks, Cal.

It remains to be seen how quickly my dealer friend will be able to fulfill the order. He was not expecting large shipments (more than one or two at a time) for some months.

As usual, I'm in no hurry. When it arrives, I celebrate and pay for it.

G
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Old 05-05-2015   #166
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Thanks, Cal.

It remains to be seen how quickly my dealer friend will be able to fulfill the order. He was not expecting large shipments (more than one or two at a time) for some months.

As usual, I'm in no hurry. When it arrives, I celebrate and pay for it.

G
Congrats Godfrey.....
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Old 05-05-2015   #167
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I gave in too -- sorry guys. Should be mid to late May.
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Old 05-05-2015   #168
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Congrats Vince. Still going to keep the original?
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Old 05-05-2015   #169
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Nope, it's going.
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14 vs 12 bit ...
Old 05-05-2015   #170
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14 vs 12 bit ...

Saw this exchange on another forum about the 14 vs 12 bit business. The third response makes sense to me ... The imaging team at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory I worked for went through similar engineering/data format decisions way back in the middle '80s with respect to how much data was sensible to keep and how much actually made the imaging output cleaner and more robust.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Q:: re: The new Monochrom, I'm reading that it produces 12 bit files, which would seem to limit the information available in the white areas. This could be a major show stopper for many. Anyone know more about this?
R1(MM246 beta tester): That's right - although you'll see that the information in the white areas is actually better than the previous MM.

This was discussed a long time ago - and Leica did lots of tests to see whether it was better to go one way or another. Unfortunately I'm not technically qualified to discuss it further (but I think they will).
R2: Sean Reid's review (subscription site) is pretty convincing. He doesn't know how many bits there are but he provides dynamic range test that are well thought out.
R3: I haven't read an imaging chip spec since Kodak made the chips for Leica (and only the M8's chip was public information), but they usually say that there is noise from dark current leakage and the handling that the signal goes through while being extracted from the chip (more of that in CMOS than in CCD, BTW) amounting to at least 3-4 bits. So if you keep all 14 bits of possible signal, the last 3-4 bits of any pixel's value are only an accurate image of the light coming to the pixels if you average over several adjacent pixels. (Averaging over 16 pixels brings the noise down by 2 bits.) DeBayering does some of that, but we don't want to do that in a monochrome camera. So what I presume is happening, dividing the output signal of each pixel by four before converting it to digital, makes sense to me. Sure, there are now one fourth as many values available to us in the middle of the image tones, but the actual placing of those values was always random, not real.
I think the issue comes down to a decision that can only be made by trial and observation of the results as to what is the "best fit" quantization for the purpose.

Eight bit quantization on output with 256 potential grayscale levels produces some very nice B&W prints from my printer. Four more bits produces 4096 levels, which gives plenty of overhead for editing.

G
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Old 05-05-2015   #171
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Old 05-05-2015   #172
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That is basically correct. It would have been optically very difficult to remove the filter layer. It is basically replaced by a more or less clear glass, tinted to influence the tonal response curve of the sensor.
Thank you.
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Old 05-05-2015   #173
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Old 05-05-2015   #174
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I gave in back in December, or whenever I heard the first plausible rumor. Supposedly I'm first in line at a fairly large Leica dealer, I'm hoping mid May also.

Leica store Miami told me today they expect shipping in Asia late this week, and the U.S. usually follows shortly thereafter.

I've already got orange filters ready and waiting....
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Old 05-06-2015   #175
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I've Seen What's Up
Old 05-06-2015   #176
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I've Seen What's Up

I just received my latest from the Leica Forum reviews.

Unless your knees knock at the thought of sensor rust, by all means stay with the CCD Mono.

As with the release of almost all digital camera debuted these days, image quality degrades in favor of higher ISO.

What improves? Features. That's it, more and sometimes better features. Just as newer computers hit a brick wall for speed improvements some seven or eight years ago, the same is true of digital cameras. What we have are more features and smaller platforms, but the new Mono is even larger I'm afraid.

As a musician, I favor classic instruments, newer guitars aren't any better, and I find that I prefer the sound of some of my older synths. They are classics.

The old digital cameras are becoming the same. I'm not a Nikon guy, but I won't sell my old Canon 5D or 30D. It's all bout the image.

I'm looking for a nice M9 now to mate with my Mono!
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Old 05-06-2015   #177
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If we kick up a stink over the 12bit M.246 files, and the case is proven for tangible low contrast scene image quality reduction is made , then the M.247 MM3 will be better for it.

If on the other hand Leica can prove the old MM's 14 bits were not really as good as we believed and the new 12 bits are better despite being spread over a wider dynamic range, then the future looks bright for the M.246.
The case the M.246 being superior under high ISO and high contrast scenes , seems to be no contest.

I would like to see how the M.246 and MM compare side by side for a trees in fog situation.

Maybe the best compromise will be to carry a MM and a M.246.

Is it a more than a coincidence that Leica also launched B&W contrast filters for the M.246 ?
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Old 05-06-2015   #178
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Originally Posted by FrozenInTime View Post
If we kick up a stink over the 12bit M.246 files, and the case is proven for tangible low contrast scene image quality reduction is made , then the M.247 MM3 will be better for it.

If on the other hand Leica can prove the old MM's 14 bits were not really as good as we believed and the new 12 bits are better despite being spread over a wider dynamic range, then the future looks bright for the M.246.
The case the M.246 being superior under high ISO and high contrast scenes , seems to be no contest.

I would like to see how the M.246 and MM compare side by side for a trees in fog situation.

Maybe the best compromise will be to carry a MM and a M.246.

Is it a more than a coincidence that Leica also launched B&W contrast filters for the M.246 ?
B&W contrast filters would do little to nothing for a "trees in fog" situation. That's basically a monochromatic situation already; a green, yellow, or orange filter can't do much to separate or compress tonal translation values there. :-)

G
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Old 05-06-2015   #179
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Contrast filters? Hmm, they could launch cheaper Tri X instead
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Old 05-06-2015   #180
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Contrast filters? Hmm, they could launch cheaper Tri X instead
I'll second that.
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Old 05-06-2015   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
B&W contrast filters would do little to nothing for a "trees in fog" situation. That's basically a monochromatic situation already; a green, yellow, or orange filter can't do much to separate or compress tonal translation values there. :-)

G
Exactly - that's potentially the deal breaking situation for the M.246
Guess need to wait and see how critical the filters are in more normal scenes.
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Old 05-06-2015   #182
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... I do like a deal-breaker, much better than a red-line issue
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Old 05-06-2015   #183
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Exactly - that's potentially the deal breaking situation for the M.246
Guess need to wait and see how critical the filters are in more normal scenes.
I've seen no proof that there is any issue as yet, just a lot of words suggesting that there is. According to everything I've seen in reviews and sample photos so far, at base ISO the MM246 performs on par with the MM9 and at elevated ISO settings the MM246 performs better.

Have you seen anything specific that proves there is a serious problem with the MM246 performance? If so, please point to it so I can evaluate whether it affects my photography and whether to cancel my order.

Thanks, I appreciate your help. $7500 is not something I toss about lightly.

G
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Old 05-06-2015   #184
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Have you seen anything specific that proves there is a serious problem with the MM246 performance?
I've not seen any thing that proves or disproves there is a real life issue.
However the changes from MM to M.246 seem significant enough to merit both scientific and artistic scrutiny before committing to a purchase.
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Old 05-06-2015   #185
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I just received certified pre-owned silver MM v1 (what do we call this one now?) in perfect condition, really indistinguishable from new. I had regular black MM v1 in the past and loved it. Just shot a few frames to make sure the sensor is in good shape, and that reminded me how clean the file was at pretty much any ISO compared to what I'm used to: Tri-X. I seriously doubt I need any higher ISO or better IQ per given ISO than this.

Only thing I wish MM (or all other digital cameras I've had) do better is more graceful highlight fallout compared to Tri-X. I'll be shooting the MM v1 like shooting a positive film, under exposing if in doubt rather than over exposing like I do with negative films.

If the MM246 can do the highlight a LOT better than the original MM, that will be very tempting to jump on once the used price comes down in 3-4 years, maybe after MM3 comes out. If that's not happening, I'll probably skip MM246 all together as I really don't need better ISO/IQ combo than what MM v1 can do already.

Eager to see more real life shots of MM246 once it hits the street.
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Old 05-06-2015   #186
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...However the changes from MM to M.246 seem significant enough to merit both scientific and artistic scrutiny before committing to a purchase.
Yes, that sums it up for me. I'm on a waiting list, but if I'm in doubt when my name comes up, I'll just step to the bottom of the list until we know more.

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Old 05-06-2015   #187
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Originally Posted by FrozenInTime View Post
I've not seen any thing that proves or disproves there is a real life issue.
However the changes from MM to M.246 seem significant enough to merit both scientific and artistic scrutiny before committing to a purchase.
Thank you, that's what I expected to hear. I think the use of terms like "deal breaker" are a bit over the top, too much hyperbole based on conjecture and theoretical concerns without any ground truth. I do expect that Leica's engineers are not stupid or foolish too ... They certainly know a vast amount more about optics, imaging mechanics, and digital signal processing than I do.

So far, as I said, what I've seen in review and picture samples is performance on par with the MM9 at base ISO, and significantly better performance at higher ISO settings. That's really what inspired me to put money down ... I like to do pinhole and zone plate work and where the M-P does lovely B&W work (pretty close to on par again at near base ISO) having ISO 12500 and 25000 extends what you can do in pinhole by a lot.

It should be a no brainer to construct a simple test of base ISO mid level gray differentiation between the MM9 and MM246. So I expect any such debate to be resolved pretty darn fast once there are a few available to work with. I'm not sure what the reviewers who have had both cameras accessible have not done such a test—unless they felt it was a waste of time based on the quality they were seeing out of the camera.

G
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Old 05-06-2015   #188
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I am sure it has already been pointed out by Sean Reid at ReidReview.com has done a commendable job of comparing the output of the MM9 and the MM246.
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Old 05-06-2015   #189
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I'm with Godfrey on this one. Plunked my money down as well, let the waiting game begin...
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Old 05-06-2015   #190
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I am sure it has already been pointed out but Sean Reid at ReidReview.com has done a commendable job of comparing the output of the MM9 and the MM246.
I've heard that. Every time I hear it, it bugs me once again.

Wonderful as Sean's reviews can be, I refuse to pay $30 for the crappiest reading experience on the web. I subscribed once and dropped it when it came to renewal time because I just cant deal with the stupidity of the reading experience, and didn't get a buck out of the $30 I spent.

Yes, it does irritate the heck out of me. I wish he'd find another way to distribute his work.

G
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Old 05-06-2015   #191
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As I recall, Sean's review mentioned a very slight difference in tonality between the MM and M246, not enough to get fussed about one way or the other. Jaapv made an interesting comment in Post 166 about the glass cover that replaces the color filter array, that it was slightly tinted to aid tonality. Presumably tinted slightly differently than the MM's glass cover.
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Old 05-07-2015   #192
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Just saw this on GetDPI at "Monochrom 246 DNG files - if you want to play".

Jono Slack was one of the MM246 beta testers. He's posted a set of MM246/MM9 comparison DNG files here that you can download and examine in detail.

He also posted a few random MM246 DNG files for experimentation here.

G
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Old 05-07-2015   #193
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Jono Slack was one of the MM246 beta testers. He's posted a set of MM246/MM9 comparison DNG files
G
Thank you Godfrey - sadly not works of art, but hopefully it will give you an idea of what to expect.
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Old 05-07-2015   #194
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Can't open in "Safari" or "Chrome" Neither work.
Both links work fine for me; I just checked them a second time from another computer using OS X v10.10.3 and Safari version 8.0.5 (10600.5.17). Click and download begins ...

They redirect through the GetDPI forum and retrieve from DropBox, so perhaps if you go there using the first link in the post, you can download directly from GetDPI.

G
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Old 05-07-2015   #195
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Can't open in "Safari" or "Chrome" Neither work.
Should be okay - the second link immediately starts the download.


Incidentally, if you haven't seen it, this is a great review by grEGORy Simpson - Ultrasomething Monochrom Review

My much shorter effort is at www.slack.co.uk
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Old 05-07-2015   #196
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Just saw this on GetDPI at "Monochrom 246 DNG files - if you want to play".

Jono Slack was one of the MM246 beta testers. He's posted a set of MM246/MM9 comparison DNG files here that you can download and examine in detail.

He also posted a few random MM246 DNG files for experimentation here.

G
Pretty amazing the differences. Glad I've ordered one!
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Old 05-07-2015   #197
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In the end it boils down to a very simple equation - it is a beautiful camera producing beautiful images, and highly desirable, cheap at the price IMO. But so is the Monochrom 1, and it is questionable whether an upgrade is worth the price if one owns the older model. I decided that my photography does not merit the extra expenditure. If I did not already own a Monochrom, however, my Credit Card would have suffered a meltdown by now...
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Old 05-07-2015   #198
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So what is the visual difference between images made with the CCD vs the CMOS sensors?

I'm not quite ready to jump on this bandwagon....I still like what I have!
With that question you have ignited a war comparable to film vs digital.
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Old 05-07-2015   #199
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With that question you have ignited a war comparable to film vs digital
Perhaps not a war but a little argument? The difference I think is much more subtle than film versus digital
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Old 05-07-2015   #200
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Or not even an argument, just looking for some evidence.

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