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Will Fuji continue to resist full frame sensors?
Old 09-07-2018   #1
Keith
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Will Fuji continue to resist full frame sensors?

With Nikon and Canon finally entering the full frame mirrorless market Fuji have just released the XT3 and to to me it appears to be a brilliant camera. My friend Karen who bought the X100F recently is considering one herself and looking at the specs and reviews who could blame her.

Do you think a camera like the XT3 will lose sales against Sony and now Nikon and Canon by not being full frame? Given the mirrorless choices out there at the moment I would go with the Fuji every time especially considering that it is now the third incarnation of what was already a brilliant camera on it's original release.
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Old 09-07-2018   #2
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At nearly half the price, for all but the most pixel fixated the same IQ, and better portability I hope not.
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Old 09-07-2018   #3
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The glass likely doesn’t cover full frame, I don’t see many folks stepping up to a FF Fuji needing all new glass. The X sensors are quite good, I don’t know how Much better they could get.
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Old 09-07-2018   #4
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The XT3 is close to the same size as the Sony Alpha 7r. The 7r is heavier by 22%, so it comes down to price. Setting (FF) ego aside logic goes with the Fuji for me.
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Old 09-07-2018   #5
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I don’t see it happening soon. The lens IQ is great and it would be a pinch in the face to the consumers who own a lot of their existing glass.

I thought the new canon was crop sensor also ?
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Old 09-07-2018   #6
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I wonder now what the image circles are of the x lenses....
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Old 09-07-2018   #7
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Don't they have digital MF camera already?
Canonikon has none.
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Old 09-07-2018   #8
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Now that Panasonic appears to be going full frame, the flood gates will open. Fuji and Olympus will follow suit. But Fiji may just stick with their "medium format" line.
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Old 09-07-2018   #9
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Fuji has decided on APS-C and the GFX medium format.
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Old 09-07-2018   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Don't they have digital MF camera already?
Canonikon has none.
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Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
Fuji has decided on APS-C and the GFX medium format.
This. Per the rumor sites, the next step for Fuji is a less-expensive medium-format camera, the GFX50R.

Ultimately the market will speak, one way or the other. But the whole point of Fuji's strategy is *not* to compete head-to-head with Canon or Nikon - they've targeted market niches that aren't being served by either.
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Old 09-07-2018   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
..... The X sensors are quite good, I don’t know how Much better they could get.
I see the numbers of photographers who still think a digital sensor should be the same size as a piece of 35mm film to be very small and diminishing. That ship has sailed.

Once there was merit in being able to reuse older film designed lenses but newer optical designs, auto focusing, and image stabilization, plus the low cost of the excellent Fuji lenses means that ship has sailed also.
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Old 09-07-2018   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric T View Post
Now that Panasonic appears to be going full frame, the flood gates will open. Fuji and Olympus will follow suit. But Fiji may just stick with their "medium format" line.
I agree, now most will follow suit.

It is a good thing.

We certainly live in exciting times.
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Old 09-07-2018   #13
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If you want small lenses paired with decent sized bodies, just buy Fuji. I don't understand why people would want it otherwise so much. Maybe just so that they could keep chanting "why these new FF lenses are so large". But in reality when they do have a small-ish lens: "hey that 40/1.2 has so much purple fringing" or "f/2.8 is too slow for me".

Fuji offers a very well balanced system. Do realized, and treasure it.
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Old 09-07-2018   #14
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Having the same sensor size (FL consistency) across one's gear makes some sense if you're changing lenses. On the other hand as an x100t user I don't see any reason to replace or upgrade what is essentially a social media camera (read browser viewing only)... I think of the fixed lens x100t as a 35mm FL equivalent and the in-camera JPGs are more than good enough for my needs. If I upgrade it would be to the x100f \(ツ)/

To me, moving from a Canon 30D to the 5DII made sense, the same logic may not apply in the mirrorless market. Having options is almost always a good thing...

"What looks large from a distance, close up ain't never that big". - Bob Dylan
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Old 09-07-2018   #15
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Yes, the GFX is there answer to that. The market is too crowded and they've found their niche.
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Old 09-07-2018   #16
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To me, the only thing I shoot is legacy lenses. If they would cover full frame, that would make it easier to know when shooting a 35mm or 50mm what it would look like. But I'm fine with APS-C otherwise.
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Old 09-07-2018   #17
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N and C had no choice, with their huge list of legacy lenses. Their mirrorless offerings needed to support those lenses, and also compete with Sony, which is taking big chunks of market share from them.

Fuji on the other hand had a clean slate and they are smart to leapfrog the legacy format.
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Old 09-08-2018   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
Do you think a camera like the XT3 will lose sales against Sony and now Nikon and Canon by not being full frame? Given the mirrorless choices out there at the moment I would go with the Fuji every time especially considering that it is now the third incarnation of what was already a brilliant camera on it's original release.
To spec crazed pixel peepers? Sure... or to people who prefer big bodies and big lenses to look more pro? Sure...

Ok, joking aside, I think it is a hard sell to the uninitiated to accept that using an APSC camera just for ego purposes. They are told over and over all over the place that FF is THE format. However, for those who have actually used both extensively... we know that Fuji's current APSC cameras are the best overall combination of price, performance, weight, and size. However, if you are not concerned about keeping size low or about having legacy controls, or about the crappyness of Sony ergonomics / haptics / menus... it is hard to beat an A7 III for perceived value in FF mirrorless.
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Old 09-08-2018   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
The glass likely doesn’t cover full frame, I don’t see many folks stepping up to a FF Fuji needing all new glass. The X sensors are quite good, I don’t know how Much better they could get.
Everybody always says this, but yet people do it all of the time. Time heals everything. Also, most people don't use an arsenal of lenses...
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Old 09-08-2018   #20
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Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
The XT3 is close to the same size as the Sony Alpha 7r. The 7r is heavier by 22%, so it comes down to price. Setting (FF) ego aside logic goes with the Fuji for me.
Well, in body size sure... but how about lens size? Fuji has a lot more small and light lenses...
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Old 09-08-2018   #21
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Don't they have digital MF camera already?
Canonikon has none.
Yes, but MF is not mainstream...
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Old 09-08-2018   #22
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For me, it comes down to lens size and weight.

My days of lugging around heavy lenses is done.
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Old 09-08-2018   #23
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Yes, but MF is not mainstream...
To Fuji, that’s kinda the point.

Much easier to not have to compete against N-S-C
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Old 09-08-2018   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
With Nikon and Canon finally entering the full frame mirrorless market Fuji have just released the XT3 and to to me it appears to be a brilliant camera. My friend Karen who bought the X100F recently is considering one herself and looking at the specs and reviews who could blame her.

Do you think a camera like the XT3 will lose sales against Sony and now Nikon and Canon by not being full frame? Given the mirrorless choices out there at the moment I would go with the Fuji every time especially considering that it is now the third incarnation of what was already a brilliant camera on it's original release.
FUJIFILM has a fuller frame camera – the GFX-50S with a 51.4MP 44 x 33mm Bayer sensor. But it costs about $2K more than the Z7. The stellar GF lenses are not cheap either ($1.3 to $2.2K).

The XT3 has two disadvantages: APS-C and no IBIS. Sensor area is important because the maximum possible total signal (exposure) depends on area when sensor technologies are equivalent. IBIS is great, but it has no advantage over in-lens stabilization unless you are doing video or using third-party lenses.

The X-T3 offers a significant improvement in AF performance and the Fujinon lens lineup is diverse. A XT3 body is about $2.1K less than the Z7, $800 less than the Canon R and only about $500 less than the Z6. These prices are just +/- $100 estimates.

In my view FUJIFILM's market share is not more vulnerable now that Nikon and Canon have 24 X 36mm mirrorless cameras. Their primary competition is SONY. The Nikon and Canon bodies change when lens adapters are used to mount existing lenses.

I think some FUJIFILM owners will switch to Nikon or Canon. I also think some Canon and Nikon owners who decide to switch to mirriorless will go with FUJIFILM or SONY.
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Old 09-08-2018   #25
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Originally Posted by Bob Michaels View Post
I see the numbers of photographers who still think a digital sensor should be the same size as a piece of 35mm film to be very small and diminishing. That ship has sailed.

Once there was merit in being able to reuse older film designed lenses but newer optical designs, auto focusing, and image stabilization, plus the low cost of the excellent Fuji lenses means that ship has sailed also.
In the early days of digital, the 35mm format was the standard of image quality to which all else was compared. Everyone wanted something equivalent for their digital camera with the ability to use their 35mm lenses. Since then we've seen smaller digital formats like M4/3 and APS-C come along with astoundingly good image quality and a range of superb lenses. Even the 1" format is highly capable. IMO APS-C now exceeds 35mm film in image quality. Image quality is a given with all digital formats. FF digital might be marginally better but, really, who needs "better" when you're dealing with this degree of excellence?

I suspect the desire for the New Big Thing will hook many photographers and they will dump their current systems and hop to the new ones. Others will just continue to take pictures and not get involved in the endless quest.
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Old 09-08-2018   #26
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I've thought about this a bit.
After seeing the announcement of the canon and Nikon FF mirrorless cameras and their respective lenses, I don't think Fuji will be tempted to the FF category, and neither would I want them to.
The Xtrans aps-c Fuji's are so close in IQ to the FF cameras, yet have smaller, more tactile, sweeter lenses thanks to the slightly smaller format. They absolutely nailed the size to quality ratio.

Take a look at these lens size comparisons:
Fast 35mm equivalent lenses - http://j.mp/2NYw6Kq
Fast 85mm lenses - http://j.mp/2wTwoLV

It seems that the mirrorless bodies from sony/canon/Nikon are employing even larger lens designs than their mirrored equivalents.
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Old 09-08-2018   #27
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I've thought about this a bit.
After seeing the announcement of the canon and Nikon FF mirrorless cameras and their respective lenses, I don't think Fuji will be tempted to the FF category, and neither would I want them to.
The Xtrans aps-c Fuji's are so close in IQ to the FF cameras, yet have smaller, more tactile, sweeter lenses thanks to the slightly smaller format. They absolutely nailed the size to quality ratio.

Take a look at these lens size comparisons:
Fast 35mm equivalent lenses - http://j.mp/2NYw6Kq
Fast 85mm lenses - http://j.mp/2wTwoLV

It seems that the mirrorless bodies from sony/canon/Nikon are employing even larger lens designs than their mirrored equivalents.
I agree completely... but many people do not care about size. Some guys even seem to buy big lenses just to have big lenses!!! haha.
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Old 09-08-2018   #28
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I think there's no need to Fuji to jump on the FF-train, at least for now. But they should think to offer their top cameras alternatively with Bayer sensor instead of X-Trans. Latter one probably divides more than the sensor format itself, either you love it your hate it, I'm in the second group. Luckily they don't go this route with there MF line.

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