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Corrosion on REPLACED sensor?
Old 03-12-2018   #1
allycrighton
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Corrosion on REPLACED sensor?

So I'm a proud owner of M9 for a few months -- have the paperwork on the sensor replacement and CLA done in Germany last year. Now, in UAE, dust is an issue, and my sensor was pretty grubby -- something very obvious when shooting with my Orion-15 28mm at F11. So off it went to Leica service here for a sensor 'clean'. TBH, they didn't do a great job .. they cleaned it 3 times, and even said that the shutter was blowing dust back on sensor, so that would need to be taken apart for an extra charge and a lot longer in service. I declined. Since then (just under a week now) I'm seeing what I can only assume is sensor corrosion -- rapidly accelerating, too. Pics enclosed (identical crops, lower right of sensor) -- any thoughts?
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Old 03-12-2018   #2
Peter Wijninga
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You are not the only one. Google, and you will find others who have had the same experience.
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Old 03-13-2018   #3
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Yes, Leica UAE Service Centre not bothering to respond. Leica Germany confirm sensor replacement was with the same defective sensor, and is now out of warranty! Thankfully, can prove it was Leica's 'clean' that caused the damage, so hopefully that will help, but seriously unimpressed by service response so far.
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Old 03-13-2018   #4
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How much would Leica trade in the M9 for?
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Old 03-13-2018   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allycrighton View Post
-- any thoughts?
My thought is your camera needs to be cleaned.
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Old 03-13-2018   #6
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Cleaning was the problem, Willie, by Leica's service unit here in UAE who assumed, as it was replaced, 3 wet cleans would be fine. They weren't .
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Old 03-13-2018   #7
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"Following the successfully begun and largely completed replacement programme for corroded sensors that affected M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E camera models, we would now like to inform you about how this programme will be handled in the future.

Until 15 August 2017, we will continue to offer free replacement of sensors for these camera models if they are affected by the corrosion problem. This will also apply after 16 August 2017 for the models listed above, but only in cases where the cameras have been purchased as new products within the last five years.

From 16 August 2017, and until further notice, we will offer our customers the following new programme for all camera models mentioned above that were purchased longer than five years ago. Here, the customer pays a share of the replacement costs for the affected CCD sensor amounting to 982 euros (825 euros plus 19% VAT). Included in this programme is a free general overhaul* of your Leica M camera and a one year warranty on the same terms as for new products. This offer expresses our commitment to conserving the value of your camera."

First off, funny they mention largely completed. I guess they didn't include those who have been waiting 7 months now, and with Leica NJ saying they are only now working on cameras they received in June 2017.

I also bolded the part "Until further notice" as that allows them (and they will) change the terms of conditions again to further hose their customers.

Sorry that you are going through this but it was inevitable when Leica was replacing defective sensors with the same defective sensors. Which is why I sold my M-E after the first sensor replacement.

If you want your camera fixed, deal directly with Leica Wetzlar. They are much more responsive and much much quicker.
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Old 03-13-2018   #8
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Amazing that they will get away with doing this to their customers. Kind of obscene, really.
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Old 03-13-2018   #9
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Amazing that they will get away with doing this to their customers. Kind of obscene, really.
Maybe more amazing is that so many stay loyal.

But on the OP's issue: as we know, there was a period of replacements with the original sensor, but I don't understand how your camera could be among them if the work was done last year. As I recall, repairs with the redesigned solution started in 2015.

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Old 03-13-2018   #10
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When I owned an M8 and an M9, I didn't like having to wet-clean the sensor very often, but I was able to minimize this by periodically vacuuming the rear lens caps, camera bag and rear of the lenses with a household vacuum cleaner. I'd also try to minimize lens changes under breezy or dusty conditions. No seriously, that sensor is a dust magnet.

I also used to periodically vacuum the interior of the camera itself (with shutter retracted!), but I wouldn't suggest this unless you're 100% sure of what you are doing and assume full responsibility for destroying your camera's sensor and maybe the shutter too. I repair cameras as a hobby and probably have a better than average sense of what I can get away with.
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Old 03-13-2018   #11
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I have asked the Leica person in charge of quality assurance to look into complaints about service issues.
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Old 03-14-2018   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allycrighton View Post
Cleaning was the problem, Willie, by Leica's service unit here in UAE who assumed, as it was replaced, 3 wet cleans would be fine. They weren't .
I meant the entire camera. I think dust located through the interior is fouling the sensor.
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Old 03-14-2018   #13
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I meant the entire camera. I think dust located through the interior is fouling the sensor.
I'm with Willie on this. I own a Nikon F3P that was a real "Press Camera" owned by the newspaper "Newsday." This F3P was used to cover Operation Desert Storm. I know this because I bought it soon after the war ended, and I was told it had just been serviced and overhauled by Nikon.

I assume it had a problem with dust. The forensics show pencil markings from the repair tech where the film cassette is loaded. Camera shows a fair amount of brassing from use and has a right loose strap lug.

Evidently when the cost of repairs approaches or exceeds the original costs newspapers sell their used gear to recover costs. At that time F3P's were not available to consumers and one had to have press credentials to purchase one.

I have owned my Monochrom for over 5 years. I bought it soon after it was released. Over those 5 years I have only had to wet clean my sensor 3 times. Understand I live in NYC which is a dirty polluted city, I took precautions of limiting lens changing in the street, and I used a blower and a Visible Dust Arctic Butterfly to maintain good camera hygene to maintain a clean sensor. This is why I had so few wet cleanings required. The Visible Dust LED magnifier made it easy to see any accumulation before any dirt became embedded that would require any wet cleaning.

I had the sensor replaced, it took 12 weeks, and I sent in my camera in December 2016, so I have the upgraded sensor. Leica basically overhauled my camera for free. Over the 5 years the corrosion that was present on my old sensor only became an issue on large prints, always in the same spot, but not on all images. Not really an issue I could not live with.

To me the sensor being a dirt magnet is a bit overblown. The desert enviornment is rather hostile. That is not Leica's fault.

If Leica damaged your sensor cleaning it that is a separate issue.

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Old 03-14-2018   #14
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Sounds like some of us M9 owners should get the visible dust and use it! I take it that it's a "dry cleaning" option?
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Old 03-14-2018   #15
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I’m waiting for some smart a** to start selling used Leica M’s that come bundled with “36 single use monochrome sensors on a flexible triacetate substrate” that are user interchangeable and are available at multiple locations worldwide.

Or, since Leica was shipping the MA with a roll of tri-x they could advertise it as the “ new and improved Monochrom”
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Old 03-14-2018   #16
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Sorry for your troubles OP.
This is a bucket of cold water on any Leica DRF desire.
How they avoid a class action through all of this is a mystery to me.
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Old 03-14-2018   #17
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Sounds like some of us M9 owners should get the visible dust and use it! I take it that it's a "dry cleaning" option?
Rob,

The reason why I disagree sensors are dust magnets is because dirty sensors that require a wet cleaning is kind of preventable.

I bought a Visible Dust kit that included a blower ball with a check valve (kinda important to have a check valve IMHO), an Arctic Butterfly that uses electrostatic force to pull off dust, and this magnifier with a ring of LED lights so one can actually see any accumulation of dust.

I kinda was freaking out because of all the overblown "dirt magnet" threads. I used my Monochrom for about a year and was thinking I would have embedded dirt.

So what I saw on my sensor was oil and grease that had migrated from a new camera on my sensor. I followed the wet cleaning instructions from Visible Dust. Also know that I have read reports that Leica uses Visible Dust products to do their wet cleanings.

So after this initial wet cleaning I had to do another to remove a stubborn piece of dust. The grease and oil problem never was an issue after initial camera breaking in. Pretty much I would inspect my sensor once a month or every 6 weeks and just use a blower brush. A few times I had to use the Arctic Butterfly to use a static charge to pull a dust off the sensor. The three cleanings I reported might be an exaggeration, when in fact it might of been only two wet cleanings over 5 years.

I expect with my new overhauled Monochrome to repeat the same experience I had with my new Monochrom. Maybe some of the illustrated dirt on the sensor might be the oil and grease from initial breakin. Deserts are also hot, and this could of exaccerbated the problem.

Some people do not use the best camera hygene, but I am somewhat of a cronic hand washer too. LOL. Pretty much a dirty sensor is avoidable. The exception here is a desert enviornment or the South Pole which are dusty and gritty enviornments. Of course I only mount clean lenses and I use the blower ball on them to ensure I don't introduce dirt into the camera.

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Old 03-14-2018   #18
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I am now only changing lenses when I am at home with a controlled dust limited atmosphere. I turn over the camera so that the lens mount points downward and I carefully check the lens rear glass before mounting the lens on the camera. It has worked so far.
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Old 03-14-2018   #19
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I am now only changing lenses when I am at home with a controlled dust limited atmosphere. I turn over the camera so that the lens mount points downward and I carefully check the lens rear glass before mounting the lens on the camera. It has worked so far.
Raid,

I do the same pointing the lens mount down when using the blower ball with the check valve. Pretty much I am flushing out any dust.

After dealing with the initial break in oil and grease contamination pretty much all that is required is the blower ball. I have only required using the Arctic Butterfly a few times.

The trick here is never to allow dust to accumulate because eventually it gets stubbornly attached. If you use the blower ball frequently enough then there is no need for an Arctic Butterfly.

Wet cleaning is only then required for the oil and grease from initial break-in. Know that I used my Monochrom a lot. Not abused the top plate has silvering along the corners and edges. It displays a patina like a gently brassed camera.

Accumulated dust seems to bond onto the sensor over long periods of time. A little maintenance goes a long ways. I use the blower ball on my film cameras as a carryover.

Cal
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Old 03-14-2018   #20
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Hi Cal,
Yes, I have been using the blower regularly, and this is all I have been doing about dust removal. It seems to work well.
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Old 03-14-2018   #21
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The sensor problems on the M9 are there, and real. BUT, the M9 is an obsolete camera that went out of production in 2012, and its last derivative in 2015. Leica moved on to a trouble free sensor in 2012.

Yeah yeah, I know. "It's an expensive camera, they should... woulda... blah blah blah." A waste of time, folks. The M9 generation cameras time is over. Spend to fix it if you love it. If you're going to complain forever about it, well, you should just sell it and move on.

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Old 03-14-2018   #22
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How they avoid a class action through all of this is a mystery to me.
Because the majority of Leica's DIGITAL customers are owners not users.
And I've never met a bigger crowd of apologists for any brand.

full disclosure - I currently own an M240 (bought used), and numerous film bodies and lenses. So I am not casting rocks from afar.
I differentiate between film and digital Leicas, because almost everyone I know and have seen with film Leicas are enthusiastic photographers who use them all the time. Most of them saved up their pennies to buy a used one.
It is the opposite for the digital cameras. The majority of those rolled into a dealership to buy something expensive and pretty, cuz it has to be better than a Nikon or Sony, right? Heaven forbid they are not actually going to use them...

Of course there are a few digital Leica users out there,such as those on RFF, but if you think you are representative of the customer base then you are mistaken.
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Old 03-14-2018   #23
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The sensor problems on the M9 are there, and real. BUT, the M9 is an obsolete camera that went out of production in 2012, and its last derivative in 2015. Leica moved on to a trouble free sensor in 2012.

Yeah yeah, I know. "It's an expensive camera, they should... woulda... blah blah blah." A waste of time, folks. The M9 generation cameras time is over. Spend to fix it if you love it. If you're going to complain forever about it, well, you should just sell it and move on.

Life is not a free ride—no one gets out of it alive.
Every digital Leica is an obsolete camera. None, including the M10, compare in tech to other offerings in the market. Especially in sensor tech.
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Old 03-14-2018   #24
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
The sensor problems on the M9 are there, and real. BUT, the M9 is an obsolete camera that went out of production in 2012, and its last derivative in 2015. Leica moved on to a trouble free sensor in 2012.

Yeah yeah, I know. "It's an expensive camera, they should... woulda... blah blah blah." A waste of time, folks. The M9 generation cameras time is over. Spend to fix it if you love it. If you're going to complain forever about it, well, you should just sell it and move on.

Life is not a free ride—no one gets out of it alive.
Godfrey,

My spin is I bought my Monochrom new, used it for 5 years without a real problem (corrosion only showed in some large prints and I was able to spot-heal any image defects), and then did without the camera for 12 weeks while it got a sensor replacement (upgraded) and a free overhaul.

I kinda got a "free-ride." No complaints here, I still love the camera. Surely the M-246 and M-10 are more advanced cameras, but the charm of the original Monochrom is that it is a primitive and basic digital camera for B&W only. It is as close to a film camera than any digital camera I have used. That is its charm.

I also expect a reasonable next decade of use. If that happens getting 15 years of service out of a digital camera is nothing to complain about. Already I feel I got my money's worth, and even if I only get a second five years of trouble free service it is still a good deal to me.

BTW I love this camera, but it cost me nothing for the sensor upgrade, and my Monochrom was overhauled for free. Happy-happy.

Cal
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Old 03-14-2018   #25
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How they avoid a class action through all of this is a mystery to me.
Would that be possible because they sell their products themselves in the US? German law doesn't know such a thing. Which might explain the attitude... It was possible in the case of one of the German car manufacturers, but they produce in the US. Does anyone know?
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Old 03-14-2018   #26
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I have asked the Leica person in charge of quality assurance to look into complaints about service issues.
Raid, I don't know what there is to "look into." It seems obvious that Leica's handling of the M9 issue has been a business decision. A service department and supply chain are not that hard to improve if you're willing to spend the money. Even basic, genuine communication would have gone a long way. I know this subject has been beaten to death, but it's still shameful.

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Old 03-14-2018   #27
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John: It do not represent but myself here. I have no idea what Leica does or does not do here for improved service. I just pointed out to them that there is a perceived issue in terms of lack of services.
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Old 03-14-2018   #28
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Rant mode ON:-

In my little world the word 'obsolete' means worn out; not old fashioned and not no longer being made...

OK, rant mode OFF.
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Old 03-15-2018   #29
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Rant mode ON:-

In my little world the word 'obsolete' means worn out; not old fashioned and not no longer being made...

OK, rant mode OFF.
David,

I agree. Certainly there are much more advanced digital cameras. I think of my Monochrom as a rather "primitive" digital camera. For me the experience is most like shooting a film camera because it is so basic. I love my Monochrom for all the reasons others hate it.

One day I think others will take my side. Still makes amazing images. The CCD sensor has its own unique rendering, and because it costs more to make than a CMOS sensor perhaps the days of CCD sensored cameras is just history.

One day I say there will be a great appreciation, a turnaround and the thinking will be more aligned. Truely so elemental that my Monochrom comes the closest to being like shooting a film camera than anything else.

Again, the M-246 is a much more advanced camera.

Cal
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Old 03-15-2018   #30
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Every digital Leica is an obsolete camera. None, including the M10, compare in tech to other offerings in the market. Especially in sensor tech.
Not really, the M10 data stream's performance is competitive for 24 X 36 mm still photography.[1]

One could say Leica basically has historically lagged behind other brands in terms of raw-file, data quality (S/N and DR). But the M10 is currently competitive.

The M-246 is superb. The M-240 family is behind, but not by much. I suggest M-240 photographers do not face a significant disadvantage in terms of raw-file data quality. At the same time, if I wanted a Leica M camera, I admit I'd buy a M10.

I never owned a Leica product. Actually I don't trust Leica. My motivation to apologize or over compensate for Leica is unmeasurable low. But I appreciate what Leica has achieved with the M-240, M-246 and especially the M10.

1. DxO and PhotontoPhotos statical analyses disagree. I prefer PhotontoPhotos' methodologies which indicate the M10 is more competitive.
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Old 03-15-2018   #31
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Not really, the M10 data stream's performance is competitive for 24 X 36 mm still photography.[1]

One could say Leica basically has historically lagged behind other brands in terms of raw-file, data quality (S/N and DR). But the M10 is currently competitive.

The M-246 is superb. The M-240 family is behind, but not by much. I suggest M-240 photographers do not face a significant disadvantage in terms of raw-file data quality. At the same time, if I wanted a Leica M camera, I admit I'd buy a M10.

I never owned a Leica product. Actually I don't trust Leica. My motivation to apologize or over compensate for Leica is unmeasurable low. But I appreciate what Leica has achieved with the M-240, M-246 and especially the M10.

1. DxO and PhotontoPhotos statical analyses disagree. I prefer PhotontoPhotos' methodologies which indicate the M10 is more competitive.
Willie,

The Leica SL was actually the development platform for much of the M10 the way I understand it, and the SL now is is becoming a camera that will be likely be updated perhaps into a SL2 in a year or two maybe.

I own a Leica SL and the much maligned gigantic and extra heavy 50 Lux-SL. I kinda see no real advance in the M10's capabilities over a SL. Pretty much it uses the same Maestro processor borrowed from the medium format Leica "S." To me the M10 is really a SL built and repackaged as a smaller M-body without autofocus and the weatherproofing.

Was the SL really that far behind when it was released?

Cal
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Old 03-15-2018   #32
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David,

I agree. Certainly there are much more advanced digital cameras. I think of my Monochrom as a rather "primitive" digital camera. For me the experience is most like shooting a film camera because it is so basic. I love my Monochrom for all the reasons others hate it.

One day I think others will take my side. Still makes amazing images. The CCD sensor has its own unique rendering, and because it costs more to make than a CMOS sensor perhaps the days of CCD sensored cameras is just history.

One day I say there will be a great appreciation, a turnaround and the thinking will be more aligned. Truely so elemental that my Monochrom comes the closest to being like shooting a film camera than anything else.

Again, the M-246 is a much more advanced camera.

Cal
Thanks; what really gets to me is that, if I said I had a 1957, worn, black Leica MP no one would suggest I bin it. Even with all the black worn off and light leaks it would be appreciated and loved. And I think the same should apply to any camera that turns out decent prints or slides; so the M9 is on that list.

Trouble is, prints and slides don't come into the arguments for and against cameras. It's as bad as judging a wine without opening the bottle and finding two glasses...

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Old 03-15-2018   #33
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Trouble is, prints and slides don't come into the arguments for and against cameras. It's as bad as judging a wine without opening the bottle and finding two glasses...

Regards, David
David

I have a reputation for printing big and annoying people. LOL. An art dealer asked me point blank, "Why are these prints so big," because generally street photography is most times limited in print size by image quality. The point of being a street photographer and being able to attain IQ of a landscape photographer gets glossed over.

I feel I really learned how to maximize the images and fully exploit the original Monochrom.

The M-246 kinda crushes my simple MM in speed, high ISO, better shadow detail, smoother highlights... but where my CCD camera excels is in the mids.

To me the output of the M-246 is kinda scooped in the mids, and in large and medium format the "voicing" really is more about the mids. Perhaps this is the only place where the MM beats the more advanced M-246.

When printing big post processing, less is more. To me the rich mids of the CCD is well suited for printing big.

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Old 03-15-2018   #34
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Rant mode ON:-

In my little world the word 'obsolete' means worn out; not old fashioned and not no longer being made...

OK, rant mode OFF.
Obsolete does not mean "worn out". It means "replaced by a newer model" in the context I was using.

Tons of obsolete things remain perfectly serviceable for years past their date of obsolescence, and even desireable and sought after, but that does not make them any less obsolete. For example: That 1957 M2 is long obsolete, but it's still a sought after camera that is perfectly usable. My 1978 Hasselblad SWC is long obsolete, but I like it so it was worth the $500 it cost to have it serviced and repaired last year.

When you have obsolete things that are worn out or broken, you have to make a decision as to whether it's worth the cost of putting them back into service. That's where a decision must be made. Over time, obsolete things wear out in ways that are either no longer serviceable or able to be repaired in any justifiable way, but people still repair them anyway at very high cost.

Even the simplest digital camera is a device that is over an order of magnitude more complex than any film camera. So the speed at which obsolete becomes unrepairable, either economically or practically, is faster. That's a fact of life.

(Cal, my perfect Leica is the M-D. It's just like using a film camera in most any way that counts, but allows a 100% digital workflow for B&W or color. I understand all about loving an older model that has other unique attributes completely ... However, I never presume that any camera, any mechanical device, is going to last for decades unless it is a very simple device that is easy to service anywhere. That does not describe the majority of cameras ever made.)

(Willie, I've trusted Leica for over 50 years and have zero regrets from doing so. They've always produced photographs that met my satisfaction requirements and my client's needs. They've never been cheap, and they've always been a joy to work with. That's all that matters to me.)

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Old 03-15-2018   #35
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The sensor problems on the M9 are there, and real. BUT, the M9 is an obsolete camera that went out of production in 2012, and its last derivative in 2015. Leica moved on to a trouble free sensor in 2012.

Yeah yeah, I know. "It's an expensive camera, they should... woulda... blah blah blah." A waste of time, folks. The M9 generation cameras time is over. Spend to fix it if you love it. If you're going to complain forever about it, well, you should just sell it and move on.

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Rant mode ON:-

In my little world the word 'obsolete' means worn out; not old fashioned and not no longer being made...

OK, rant mode OFF.
I agree. My Leica II, made in 1934, still fulfills its intended function. So does my M9.
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Old 03-16-2018   #36
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Obsolete does not mean "worn out". It means "replaced by a newer model" in the context I was using.

Tons of obsolete things remain perfectly serviceable for years past their date of obsolescence, and even desireable and sought after, but that does not make them any less obsolete. For example: That 1957 M2 is long obsolete, but it's still a sought after camera that is perfectly usable. My 1978 Hasselblad SWC is long obsolete, but I like it so it was worth the $500 it cost to have it serviced and repaired last year.

When you have obsolete things that are worn out or broken, you have to make a decision as to whether it's worth the cost of putting them back into service. That's where a decision must be made. Over time, obsolete things wear out in ways that are either no longer serviceable or able to be repaired in any justifiable way, but people still repair them anyway at very high cost.

Even the simplest digital camera is a device that is over an order of magnitude more complex than any film camera. So the speed at which obsolete becomes unrepairable, either economically or practically, is faster. That's a fact of life.

(Cal, my perfect Leica is the M-D. It's just like using a film camera in most any way that counts, but allows a 100% digital workflow for B&W or color. I understand all about loving an older model that has other unique attributes completely ... However, I never presume that any camera, any mechanical device, is going to last for decades unless it is a very simple device that is easy to service anywhere. That does not describe the majority of cameras ever made.)

(Willie, I've trusted Leica for over 50 years and have zero regrets from doing so. They've always produced photographs that met my satisfaction requirements and my client's needs. They've never been cheap, and they've always been a joy to work with. That's all that matters to me.)

G
Godfrey,

Some really good points you made. Pretty much I used my Monochrom for 5 years of hard use. It was my main go to camera. The camera just got overhauled and has a new sensor.

Pretty easy to expect another 5 years of trouble free service, especially since the SL is my primary camera and I have many others. Not unreasonable to think the five years could stretch into a decade. After that it basically is a remarkable free camera.

I do think this could happen in my case. I can see how a MD has its charm.

Cal
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Old 03-16-2018   #37
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Willie,

The Leica SL was actually the development platform for much of the M10 the way I understand it, and the SL now is is becoming a camera that will be likely be updated perhaps into a SL2 in a year or two maybe.

I own a Leica SL and the much maligned gigantic and extra heavy 50 Lux-SL. I kinda see no real advance in the M10's capabilities over a SL. Pretty much it uses the same Maestro processor borrowed from the medium format Leica "S." To me the M10 is really a SL built and repackaged as a smaller M-body without autofocus and the weatherproofing.

Was the SL really that far behind when it was released?

Cal
Well, the SL's S/N ratio (performance when sensor underexposure is mandated by increasing ISO) is well below the M10's (data). Many 2015 cameras outperform the SL in this area - some even have smaller sensors.

On the other hand the SL's dynamic range the highest for all the Leica products with 24 X 36 mm sensors. Even today, only a handful of Nikon and SONY 24 X 36 mm cameras have higher DR performance (and not by much).

A sensor's photo-diode conversion-gain can be optimized for S/N or DR. So, it appears Leica choose DR for the SL and S/N for the M10. If this speculation is relevant, and if the SL and M10 photo-diode assemblies are similar, I believe Leica made wise performance decisions. The SL is a better choice for studio work because one has control over the light levels. The M10 is a better choice where one is at the mercy of low ambient light levels.

In terms of DR the SL certainly was competitive in 2015 and remains so today.

It would be a mistake to assume I'm bad-mouthing the SL. There's much more to consider than the technical performance of a camera's data stream. The lens systems are at least as important as the sensor technical specifications.
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Old 03-16-2018   #38
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Well, the SL's S/N ratio (performance when sensor underexposure is mandated by increasing ISO) is well below the M10's (data). Many 2015 cameras outperform the SL in this area - some even have smaller sensors.

On the other hand the SL's dynamic range the highest for all the Leica products with 24 X 36 mm sensors. Even today, only a handful of Nikon and SONY 24 X 36 mm cameras have higher DR performance (and not by much).

A sensor's photo-diode conversion-gain can be optimized for S/N or DR. So, it appears Leica choose DR for the SL and S/N for the M10. If this speculation is relevant, and if the SL and M10 photo-diode assemblies are similar, I believe Leica made wise performance decisions. The SL is a better choice for studio work because one has control over the light levels. The M10 is a better choice where one is at the mercy of low ambient light levels.

In terms of DR the SL certainly was competitive in 2015 and remains so today.

It would be a mistake to assume I'm bad-mouthing the SL. There's much more to consider than the technical performance of a camera's data stream. The lens systems are at least as important as the sensor technical specifications.
Willie,

Thanks for the response. I reached out to you because I have much respect for your technical spin on things and expertise.

A friend owns both the M10 and SL. We kinda agreed that the M10 was basically a SL that was dressed up as a rangefinder, but my friend happens to like the colors better on the SL right out of the camera, so evidently he sees a difference in the rendering of the files between the two cameras.

Your explanation between S/N verses DR makes sense. As far as the lens system, although I love my M-glass, it is evident to me that the SL glass is the most optimized for the SL. I use a Noct-Nikor and a Leica 50 E60, as well as the 50 Lux-SL. For me I favor the SLR glass over M-glass not only for ergonomics, but also rendering.

Kinda funny how the 50 Lux-SL is well hated. I know it is mucho oversized and is a porker, but to me it is the finest rendering 50 I have ever used.

Cal
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Old 03-16-2018   #39
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Obsolete does not mean "worn out". It means "replaced by a newer model" in the context I was using... G
Yes, I agree some people use it that way but my dictionary the last time I looked (and just checked) says "US; to cause ...a product to become obsolete by replacing it with something new". As I said "in my little world" (England) I figure I'm excluding these US versions of the word. And the word "cause" suggests it is forced on people, probably by the sales dept...

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Old 03-17-2018   #40
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Cal, thanks for the detailed explanation of this cleaning method. I will look into getting the arctic butterfly! While I've never done any sensor cleaning, not on the M9 nor my D700, for fear of causing damage, the electrostatic method sounds safe enough for me to use. I wonder if I should get wet cleaning supplies as well, or just leave well enough alone.
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