M240 and M8 or M9
Old 03-10-2018   #1
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M240 and M8 or M9

Have you recently used an M8 or M9 and also an M240 side by side? The colors coming out directly from the M8 look more natural to me than what I am getting with the M240. Is this due to the different sensors or is this just an illusion on my part?
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Old 03-11-2018   #2
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CCD vs. CMOS? Kodak vs. other sensor brand... probably makes sense.
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Old 03-11-2018   #3
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It is individual preferences. M8 has visible limit of dinamic range on color and BW. Sometimes. M9 showing it less. Old digital P&S camera effect.
But I never get details this crisp with any other camera. Nor I used M240...
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It Makes Sense
Old 03-11-2018   #4
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It Makes Sense

  • The characteristics of the color-filter array assemblies are not identical
  • The IR layers' frequency response are not identical
  • The in-camera JPEG rendering algotithms are not identical

In terms of color rendering aesthetics, a CCD camera can be better than a CMOS camera when the CCD camera benefits from superior IR, CFA and demosaicking firmware design and engineering.

There can be subtle differences in the pinned photo-diode frequency response between CCD and CMOS sensor beds (the silicon wafer the sits behind the color-filter array layer). But both CCD and CMOS pinned photo-diodes produce the same exact thing - electrical charge. Electrical charge not possess aesthetic attributes.

However, differences in the CFA layer frequency band-pass characteristics have a much larger effect. Theses difference affect the spatial array of electrical charge amounts or Q (coulombs).

For example here's a comparison of Phase-One IQ3 camera's CFA response versus an unidentified CMOS camera.

Here's a similar comparison for four different CCD sensor assemblies.

CMOS technology is inherently better in terms of signal capture. However the light that recorded by the CCD or CMOS wafer is not identical unless their CFA and IR filter materials have identical frequency response characteristics.

Raw data demosaicking algorithms are fine tuned to match the camera's CFA frequency response. The goal is for the image rendering model to map directly onto the spatial RGN color information. For in-camera JPEGs, each brand uses a different proprietary imaging engine for products with different sensor assemblies.
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Old 03-11-2018   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
  • The characteristics of the color-filter array assemblies are not identical
  • The IR layers' frequency response are not identical
  • The in-camera JPEG rendering algotithms are not identical

In terms of color rendering aesthetics, a CCD camera can be better than a CMOS camera when the CCD camera benefits from superior IR, CFA and demosaicking firmware design and engineering.

There can be subtle differences in the pinned photo-diode frequency response between CCD and CMOS sensor beds (the silicon wafer the sits behind the color-filter array layer). But both CCD and CMOS pinned photo-diodes produce the same exact thing - electrical charge. Electrical charge not possess aesthetic attributes.

However, differences in the CFA layer frequency band-pass characteristics have a much larger effect. Theses difference affect the spatial array of electrical charge amounts or Q (coulombs).

For example here's a comparison of Phase-One IQ3 camera's CFA response versus an unidentified CMOS camera.

Here's a similar comparison for four different CCD sensor assemblies.

CMOS technology is inherently better in terms of signal capture. However the light that recorded by the CCD or CMOS wafer is not identical unless their CFA and IR filter materials have identical frequency response characteristics.

Raw data demosaicking algorithms are fine tuned to match the camera's CFA frequency response. The goal is for the image rendering model to map directly onto the spatial RGN color information. For in-camera JPEGs, each brand uses a different proprietary imaging engine for products with different sensor assemblies.
This is a very technical explanation of how several factors and CCD and CMOS sensors could play a role in any perceived differences. Thanks for the details. It will take me some time to go through the material. In the end, a digital camera cannot last forever and we need to move forward anyways.
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Old 03-12-2018   #6
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I use an M8 and M-P 240

Most of my work is B&W and I can say that the B&W from the M8 is better than the M-P.

The tonal range seems better and overall, the M8 image seems more subtle than the M-P.

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Old 03-12-2018   #7
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This is what I also have been seeing in my files, Ernst.
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Old 03-12-2018   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
This is a very technical explanation of how several factors and CCD and CMOS sensors could play a role in any perceived differences.
The differences are real. The only role perception plays is whether you prefer one over the other. You should shoot the one you prefer. Based on your expressed preference, my guess is you will keep your M9 if it ever comes back from Leica NJ, and not trade it for an M240.
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Old 03-12-2018   #9
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The real question is, which of the differences (beside obviously signal/noise and resolution) cannot be leveled out or reversed in PP? willie_901, how and under which circumstances are the differences in CFA response noticeable after PP? Not trying to be snarky, I really want to know.
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Old 03-12-2018   #10
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The differences are real. The only role perception plays is whether you prefer one over the other. You should shoot the one you prefer. Based on your expressed preference, my guess is you will keep your M9 if it every comes back from Leica NJ, and not trade it for an M240.
Yes, I will try to keep my M9 and return the M240 to Leica.
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Old 03-12-2018   #11
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Originally Posted by raid View Post
Have you recently used an M8 or M9 and also an M240 side by side? The colors coming out directly from the M8 look more natural to me than what I am getting with the M240. Is this due to the different sensors or is this just an illusion on my part?
What do mean? Do you use jpg out of camera?
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Old 03-12-2018   #12
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My camera => DNG ==> LR5 ==> JPG.
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Old 03-12-2018   #13
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No. camera => DNG ==> LR5 ==> JPG.
Ok. Leica is not known for a high quality jpg-engine. And they are not known for a good white-balance either (except for the really new cameras) and this also influences the colour.

What you see in LR is sensor data + raw converter profile + sometimes bad white balance. Adobe does nothing to achieve a consistent look for different sensors. So of course you see a real difference between M8, M9 and M240

If you like the M8 files straight out of LR...perfect for you. For me M8 meant a lot of work all the time.
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Old 03-12-2018   #14
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The M8 is a very underappreciated camera. Best digital B&W IMHO.
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Old 03-12-2018   #15
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The M8 is a very underappreciated camera. Best digital B&W IMHO.
But unintentionally so because Leica did not spec the correct IR filter for it.
This is one of those rare moments when messing up led to a happy unintended consequence.

Do some models of the M8 have a 1/8000 shutter? I'd like that on my M.
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Old 03-12-2018   #16
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Well, maybe some day I'll be able to shoot an M9 and M240 together. I have images from way back when I still had an M9 and they have a different look for sure! That's one reason why I wouldn't mind having my M9 again. Perhaps in another 7 1/2 months it will come home...

I once had an M8u as well. It gave me really nice images that looked a lot like the M9 images. As an upgraded M8, mine had a top shutter speed of 1/4000. The original M8 had a top speed of 1/8000. I don't know if that was optimism, or a genuine speed demon.
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Old 03-12-2018   #17
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Quote:
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But unintentionally so because Leica did not spec the correct IR filter for it.
This is one of those rare moments when messing up led to a happy unintended consequence.

Do some models of the M8 have a 1/8000 shutter? I'd like that on my M.
The original M8 came with a 1/8000 shutter, that in order to achieve that high speed, had the curtains move very fast... and noisily. So in the follow-on M8.2 the speed was reduced to give a 1/4000 top speed and quieter operation. One of my M8 cameras has the M8.2 shutter upgrade offered later by Leica service.

You bring up the IR issue... And that is indeed a factor in color output as well as B&W. It took me a few months to become a believer in the necessity of the UV/IR Cut filters for color. It made a difference, such as with green foliage and black artificial fibers.

So color output will be different with use of the IR filter. The M9 and later Leicas have a thicker sensor cover glass with more effective IR attenuation, but not as effective as an M8 using a filter. I think the IR attenuation has become more effective in later Leica models, but then I'm still using the IR Cut filters even on the M240 and M262.
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Old 03-12-2018   #18
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I have the M8 with top speed 1/4000. Some state that the first model was a better model with 1/8000 top speed. I use low ISO, so it is not a point for me.
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Old 03-12-2018   #19
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1/8000 would be preferable to help avoid ND filters with that new f/1.2 lens! And maybe imaging the solar disk, other uses... But some say it comes with "shutter shock" as the curtains move more quickly than other M shutters. Strong acceleration to get the curtains moving only to slam to a stop shortly after. Since this happens at the same time as the exposure, there's the claimed camera vibration along with the noise. My upgraded M8 is noticeably quieter than the stock one...
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Old 03-12-2018   #20
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I take photos of the Gulf of Mexico and my family. I do not need such a shutter speed. My favorite aperture settings are 8~11.
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Old 03-12-2018   #21
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Raid,

Are you talking about JPEGs out of the camera or DNGs that you process? If the latter, what are you using to process them? And what sorts of process operations are you doing?

I had M9, M-P 240, now M-D 262. JPEGs out of the M9 were terrible, far as I'm concerned. Wonky color palette, etc. Out of the M240, better. But I never bothered with JPEGs out of either.

Raw files from all three are fine and I can get whatever I wanted from them. The raw files out of the M-D are the easiest to process to my taste. This is more likely the result of a better camera calibration profile in LR or Photos than anything else.

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Old 03-12-2018   #22
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I got DNG files that I then without any extra processing output as jpg files. I observed such files and I prefer the files from the M8. My M9 is still with Leica for repair, but I like files from it.
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Old 03-12-2018   #23
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M9 has compressed DNG files in very decent size. No need for JPEG1, IMO.

M9 sensor still catches IR sometimes. I wonder if new one is better.
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Old 03-12-2018   #24
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I ask for uncompressed DNG. You need jpg for web display. Right?
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Old 03-12-2018   #25
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Quote:
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I got DNG files that I then without any extra processing output as jpg files. I observed such files and I prefer the files from the M8. My M9 is still with Leica for repair, but I like files from it.
I also output only DNG files from my Leicas. Into Lightroom (sometimes a little Photoshop and/or Nik Software) and exported from Lightroom as JPG most often (if sharing digital). I think this is what most people do.

raid. Did you hear from Leica any news when to expect your M9 back? We sent ours in roughly the same time...
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Old 03-12-2018   #26
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I own both the M8 and the M240.

I have been owning and using the M8 for a longer time and while I'm impressed by the mere (technical) possibilities and the sturdiness (!) of the M240 in comparison to the M8 I can easily say that I like the pictures I get from the M8 better. That's for color and b/w and of course highly subjective. I'm using LR5 to process the (DNG-)files.

Raid, upon reading your post here, I made a quick and simple check: I browsed through a few of my pictures and the ones that made me smile the most were taken with the M8. No facts and figures here, just my honest impression.

As a final note: the M240 clearly is the more advanced, sturdier, and of course quieter (!!!) camera. In my opinion and for my purposes as a hobbyist though, it's not the camera "producing" the "better" pictures.
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Old 03-13-2018   #27
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I don't own any Leicas after the M9.
I don't feel the need to.

I use the M8 extensively. It is as relevant to me today as it was when I bought it in 2006.

I traveled across Canada one Canadian winter. Just for fun...


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Old 03-13-2018   #28
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Bought the M8 when it first came out and used it for a trip to Prague for a wedding. Once I learned not to use jpeg, I was more than satisfied with it and continue to use it. It stays in my rangefinder bag in case I need color. If I'm working, I use Canon 7D Mark IIs because it is obviously a better camera for sports. But the M8 continues to work well and produces sharper images right out of the camera than the Canons. I have not seen a need to upgrade it and am thinking about another M8, preferably an original model with the 8,000 shutter speed. I know this is off the comparison topic, but it does speak to the durability and continued usefulness of the M8.
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Old 03-13-2018   #29
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I also output only DNG files from my Leicas. Into Lightroom (sometimes a little Photoshop and/or Nik Software) and exported from Lightroom as JPG most often (if sharing digital). I think this is what most people do.

raid. Did you hear from Leica any news when to expect your M9 back? We sent ours in roughly the same time...
Leica told me on FEB 24 that my M9 has been repaired and that I can expect it back "within a week". I am still waiting. I told Leica that I will use the same box in which my M9 will arrive back to me for sending back the M240. They sent me a USPS label for sending back their M240.
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Old 03-13-2018   #30
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I own both the M8 and the M240.

I have been owning and using the M8 for a longer time and while I'm impressed by the mere (technical) possibilities and the sturdiness (!) of the M240 in comparison to the M8 I can easily say that I like the pictures I get from the M8 better. That's for color and b/w and of course highly subjective. I'm using LR5 to process the (DNG-)files.

Raid, upon reading your post here, I made a quick and simple check: I browsed through a few of my pictures and the ones that made me smile the most were taken with the M8. No facts and figures here, just my honest impression.

As a final note: the M240 clearly is the more advanced, sturdier, and of course quieter (!!!) camera. In my opinion and for my purposes as a hobbyist though, it's not the camera "producing" the "better" pictures.
I am expecting to get back my M9 from Leica any day now, after which I will return their M240 to them. Yes, the M240 feels very solid and it can do some things that I cannot do with the M9 or M8 such as taking very quickly back to back photos or use the M240 for a very long time without having to change batteries or use the M240 with LiveView to focus correctly with lenses that need shimming.

Still, the M9 with a new sensor will be better suited for my photography, with the M8 as the second camera. I prefer the colors from the M9 over the colors from the M240 when using DNG --> LR5 --> JPG. Subtle gradation of pink and red (for sunsets) can be captured with the M8 and the M9 but not with the M240 from which the images look different.
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Old 03-13-2018   #31
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Raid, when your M9 comes back please do not forget to post the first picture you'll take with it! I'm curious, you know!
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Old 03-13-2018   #32
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Hi Robert,
I am also curious if the new sensor will perform just like the damaged sensor it replaced.
I want to bring with me to Europe the M9 and M8 when we meet. The M240 feels "too bulky" to me. I think of "elegance" when I think of the M9. The M240 makes me think of "brute force".

Of course, I will post the first images with the M9!
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Why Did Leica Provide Free On-Lens IR Filters?
Old 03-13-2018   #33
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Why Did Leica Provide Free On-Lens IR Filters?

Quote:
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The real question is, which of the differences (beside obviously signal/noise and resolution) cannot be leveled out or reversed in PP? willie_901, how and under which circumstances are the differences in CFA response noticeable after PP? Not trying to be snarky, I really want to know.
It can be impossible to level out or reverse caused by differences in the IR filter layer and CFA filter frequency responses.

The issue is the photon count for each R,G and B photo sites affected by differences in the IR and, or CFA frequency responses.

Consider a set of R, G, and B photosites located at the center of each sensor assembly. The final electrical charge density for each of these three photo-diodes will depend on the the sum of the filters' frequency responses. If the green CFA has significant contributions from frequencies other than green, the photon count will be in error. It will be too high. Since the correct photon count is unknown, there is no way to compute a correction. For different scenes the errors will be different because each scene will have different levels of IR, R, G and B light at these three photosites.

This is why the only complete solution to the original M8 IR contamination problem was to to supply free on-lens IR filters. The true, but unknown, amount of IR signal contamination for a given phototsite could not be computed because the spatial distribution of IR light when the shutter was open was unknowable. So, a PS Action or in-camera firmware solution was not possible.

It is true the demosaicking algorithms are designed to account for known CFA contamination effects (the overlap of R, G and B frequencies). The goal is for the demosaicking mathematical model to map onto to the data in a one-to-one fashion. When you have to correct for two different sensor assemblies the problem is complex.[1] Part of what you pay for when you license third-party raw rendering software is the R&D effort required to compute a demosaicking model that maps onto your camera's raw data.

For in-camera JPGs the issue of leveling or reversing rendering differences is moot. Besides potential in-camera demosaicking modeling differences, the JPEG compression destroys most of the original data required to level or reverse the differences.

[1] Leica deserves credit for absorbing the R&D costs required for the matching the original and replacement M9 sensor assemblies. Even so, the problem was simpler because only the IR layer filter response was different and the frequency response differences were mall and well known.
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Old 03-13-2018   #34
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Leica told me on FEB 24 that my M9 has been repaired and that I can expect it back "within a week". I am still waiting. I told Leica that I will use the same box in which my M9 will arrive back to me for sending back the M240. They sent me a USPS label for sending back their M240.
That's exciting!

I do miss my M9. I will also be watching to see if the images look similar with the new sensor as the old sensor. Even if they aren't the same, I think of the slimmer M9 body every time I pick up the 240. Its probably an exacerbated perception because I'm using a couple film M bodies these days as well. Now those are nicely sized and proportioned.

Maybe my M9 is soon to come home as well....
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Old 03-13-2018   #35
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Did you buy the M 240?
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