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Old 4 Days Ago   #121
Godfrey
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Originally Posted by rionda View Post
Uh, disappointing information, as I was planning to use some incarnation of a Sony A7 to top my stack with a BEOON, a Rodegon APO N, and a Lightpad.

Did you use an "original" A7 or one of the later models (e.g., A7ii, A7R iii?) Do you think the situation may be improved with one of these?
My A7 was the original. I don't know what if anything Sony has done to the sensors in subsequent models. They seem to have dropped in a ton of features, like IBIS and such; I don't know how substantive the sensor changes have been or whether they've changed the stack by any noticeable degree for these uses.

I went back to using Leica bodies (the M9 was my first digital M, I'd owned a succession of film Ms before that) and have never looked back.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
My A7 was the original. [...]

I went back to using Leica bodies (the M9 was my first digital M, I'd owned a succession of film Ms before that) and have never looked back.
Out of curiosity, did you try with the A7 and a reproduction/enlarger/macro lens rather than a capture lens?

Is there any reason to blame the camera rather than the lens?
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Old 4 Days Ago   #123
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Originally Posted by rionda View Post
Out of curiosity, did you try with the A7 and a reproduction/enlarger/macro lens rather than a capture lens?

Is there any reason to blame the camera rather than the lens?
I tried the Sony A7 on the BEOON with:

- Micro-Nikkor 55mm f/3.5 (my old standard)
- Micro-Elmarit-R 60mm f/2.8 (one of the finest macro lenses in this focal length ever made)
- Summicron-R 50mm f/2 (superb, flat field lens: almost a reference lens)
- Schneider Kreuznach Componon S 50Mm F/2.8 enlarging lens
- Rodenstock APO-Rodagon-N 50mm f/2.8 enlarging lens
- Voigtländer Color Skopar 50mm f/2.5
- Summicron-M 50mm f/2
- Elmar 50mm f/3.5

Of them all, it performed best in the 1:1 to 1:3 magnification range with the Summicron-R 50mm f/2 and the Color Skopar 50mm f/2.5.

The Leica M-P240 performed better with the worst performer from the above list (the Schneider, to my amusement), and excels with all of the others. The M-D does as well, but I've only used it with the Color Skopar 50, Summicron-M 50, and Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm.

I cannot imagine that the problem is any of the lenses based on this testing.

G

BTW: Enlarging lenses are not ideally suited to capturing film to digital *unless you mount them reversed*. They're designed to go from the negative to an enlargement and have their flattest field response when the subject being imaged is behind the lens, not in front of it. Remember that paper is not absolutely flat: a negative is typically flatter. Enlarging lenses are designed to manage the small curvature of a film negative as the input from behind.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
BTW: Enlarging lenses are not ideally suited to capturing film to digital *unless you mount them reversed*. They're designed to go from the negative to an enlargement and have their flattest field response when the subject being imaged is behind the lens, not in front of it. Remember that paper is not absolutely flat: a negative is typically flatter. Enlarging lenses are designed to manage the small curvature of a film negative as the input from behind.

Interesting point, and first time that I hear it despite having read quite a bit on the topic.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #125
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Originally Posted by rionda View Post
Interesting point, and first time that I hear it despite having read quite a bit on the topic.
I never saw it in any of the forums, but saw some problems when experimenting and asked a friend doing high end circuit board repro and masking. He told me about it.
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Old 2 Days Ago   #126
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@danitoma: Nice setup. Would be great to see some sample "scans" from your efforts.
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Old 2 Days Ago   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
[...] The problem is the [email protected]! Sony sensor stack: even with an SLR 50mm lens, it causes edge problems that ruin high resolution copy work [...]

Can you briefly explain what the sensor stack problem is?
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Old 2 Days Ago   #128
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Originally Posted by DrTebi View Post
Can you briefly explain what the sensor stack problem is?
The layers of the sensor assembly use glass that is too thick. Anything other than lenses specifically designed for those kinds of sensors show degraded edge and corner performance as the ray trace goes through the layers of the stack at angles that deviate from orthogonal more and more. Moving into macro range magnifications seems to exacerbate the problem. I don't know what kind of macro-corrected lenses Sony offers.

Sony's not alone in designing sensor assemblies like this, FourThirds sensors similarly have a thick stack and don't produce the best results with non-native lenses. The good news for FourThirds users is that the effects are less significant because the sensor is so much smaller, and both Panasonic and Olympus produce several very good macro lenses designed for their sensors that work great and don't cost too much.

Because Leica's thrust with their bodies is to promote continued use of existing lenses from the R and M line cameras, they've been particularly careful to keep the sensor stack thin and more compatible with high quality results using older, existing lenses. It was this effort to maintain compatibility with existing lenses that caused the problems with the M8 sensor (too little absorption of a particular spectra) and then the M9 (such a thin coating on the sensor glasses that it was susceptible to corrosion...). The thin sensor stack promotes good imaging on older lens designs and doesn't cause exaggerated degradation at corners and edges in the macro range.
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Old 2 Days Ago   #129
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I always thought this a great write up on sensor stack issues.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/201...oes-it-matter/

Serious guy, top notch instruments for lens testing and evaluation. The link is to the middle one of a set of, I think, three articles.
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Old 2 Days Ago   #130
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I didn't read every post in this thread, sorry if it was covered. I have an XT-2 body and Sony A7II. I could invest in a Fuji 80mm macro, or any of the suggested macros for the A7II. Which would be better to build a copy system with? Or, better to trade the A7II for an A7rII?
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Old 1 Day Ago   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I used a Sony A7 body with the BEOON first. The results were good, but not great. The problem is the [email protected]! Sony sensor stack: even with an SLR 50mm lens, it causes edge problems that ruin high resolution copy work. Any of my Leica M or SL bodies and Leica M or R mount lenses do a better job—including both the Color Skopar 50/2.5 and an ancient preAI Micro-Nikkor 55/3.5.

I had my reasons for not liking that A7, this is one of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
The layers of the sensor assembly use glass that is too thick. Anything other than lenses specifically designed for those kinds of sensors show degraded edge and corner performance as the ray trace goes through the layers of the stack at angles that deviate from orthogonal more and more. Moving into macro range magnifications seems to exacerbate the problem. I don't know what kind of macro-corrected lenses Sony offers.

Sony's not alone in designing sensor assemblies like this, FourThirds sensors similarly have a thick stack and don't produce the best results with non-native lenses. The good news for FourThirds users is that the effects are less significant because the sensor is so much smaller, and both Panasonic and Olympus produce several very good macro lenses designed for their sensors that work great and don't cost too much.

Because Leica's thrust with their bodies is to promote continued use of existing lenses from the R and M line cameras, they've been particularly careful to keep the sensor stack thin and more compatible with high quality results using older, existing lenses. It was this effort to maintain compatibility with existing lenses that caused the problems with the M8 sensor (too little absorption of a particular spectra) and then the M9 (such a thin coating on the sensor glasses that it was susceptible to corrosion...). The thin sensor stack promotes good imaging on older lens designs and doesn't cause exaggerated degradation at corners and edges in the macro range.
Thanks for the detailed response.

A few posts ago I announced that I would change my Nikon D810 for a SonyA7R; well, I have meanwhile changed my mind, and opted for the Pentax K-1. I will have to investigate whether the K-1 has a thick sensor stack... hopefully I can find some info on it.

I did actually order the current Pentax 50mm f/2.8 Macro lens with it... so if the sensor should be "a thick one", I hope this lens is designed to prevent problems with that... oh well... I have a 30 days satisfaction guarantee.

By the way, the sensor-shift ability of the Pentax K-1 is one of the reasons I opted for this one. This should, in theory, be perfect for copying negatives and slides. I also like the fact that there is a great amount of K-mount lenses out there to play with, no hassle with adapters etc. And... I do already have four k-mount lenses anyway
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Old 1 Day Ago   #132
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I was a Pentaxian once upon a time. Pentax makes some great lenses ... the Limited series that I had were truly excellent, as was my Pentax 50mm macro lens. I made and sold a lot of photographs with Pentax gear.

As I've intimated before, I can't say how much practical gain there is to scanning with even greater resolution once you're capturing around the 24 MPixel level for 35mm film, but eh? can't hurt unless the sensor shift algorithm isn't working well.

So I wouldn't worry too much about the quality. Pentax is making some good cameras and lenses, there's that huge world of older lenses to play with, and if their sensors are "thick" or "thin" stack doesn't matter much as long as they are well matched.

The only thing I wonder about, really, is why you're switching from the Nikon D810. There's even more equipment available for Nikon mount, new AND old, and Nikon makes an excellent, wide range of macro lenses. Having had all three, and given the choice between Nikon, Sony, and Pentax, I'd stick with Nikon on technical merit!

G
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Old 1 Day Ago   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I was a Pentaxian once upon a time. Pentax makes some great lenses ... the Limited series that I had were truly excellent, as was my Pentax 50mm macro lens. I made and sold a lot of photographs with Pentax gear.

As I've intimated before, I can't say how much practical gain there is to scanning with even greater resolution once you're capturing around the 24 MPixel level for 35mm film, but eh? can't hurt unless the sensor shift algorithm isn't working well.

So I wouldn't worry too much about the quality. Pentax is making some good cameras and lenses, there's that huge world of older lenses to play with, and if their sensors are "thick" or "thin" stack doesn't matter much as long as they are well matched.

The only thing I wonder about, really, is why you're switching from the Nikon D810. There's even more equipment available for Nikon mount, new AND old, and Nikon makes an excellent, wide range of macro lenses. Having had all three, and given the choice between Nikon, Sony, and Pentax, I'd stick with Nikon on technical merit!

G
In one word: Usability.

I would like to take the D810 off the scanning rack and shoot some digital pictures once in a while. But since there are practically no "user settings" of any sort, apart from a few "banks" etc. that don't save things like ISO, I always have to change everything around again just to take a few shots in different light etc. I find that quite ridiculous. But they call it a "pro" feature, I guess...

Therefore, just having the D810 sitting around as a DSLR scaner only, was just bothering me. So I decided that having another DSLR that can do the same thing with similar, maybe even better results (sensor-shift comes to mind), and take some digital shots or video with ease (switching to another user preset), would be quite advantageous.

There are other small factors that I like about the K-1, like the tilting screen, the interesting ISO-based shooting modes, built-in image stabilization, WiFi (if it actually works right), GPS...

But only once I have it and tried it for a bit, I will be able to see if it's all worth it... I won't sell the D810 before having tried the K-1 extensively.
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Mamiya ZM Quartz with lots of lenses for my SLR satisfaction.
Ricoh GXR with the A12 modules for the instant gratification.

All my favorite analog images are on flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drtebi/
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Old 11 Hours Ago   #134
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Originally Posted by DrTebi View Post
In one word: Usability.
....
Sounds perfectly reasonable.

I'm not so familiar with the D810 body, or with most of the modern Nikons since the F3 actually although I did have an F6 for a while and a D750 briefly. I've not been very enamored of the complexity that Nikon's jammed into their digital bodies. The D750 was a good camera but complex to use ... once the Leica SL arrived, I never touched the D750 again.
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