Old 07-11-2018   #41
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A pair of US brand basketball shoes cost $200 retail US but cost $10 to make whether in China, Vietnam or some developing country. So after the freight and whatever costs the difference comes to say $180. Now who makes this $180? Americans right? From the port of Long Beach, CA the shoes are sent to the distribution center in Alabama, or wherever by truckers earning union wages etc. And then the shoes get further distributed, retailed, athletes endorsed, etc. That factory off shore makes the least doesn’t it?
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Old 07-11-2018   #42
Emile de Leon
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Say sayonara..to film...lol..
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Old 07-11-2018   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
P.S.: You think Trump is eliminating tariffs and subsidies? Read more.
Every country should eliminate tariff (and subsidies).

The North American Free Trade Agreement is 2000 pages long and contains over 600 tariffs: is that free trade. Our Constitution has 54 word free trade agreement between states: it says no tariffs.
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Old 07-11-2018   #44
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Either way one cuts it, cheese and film will always be expensive in Canada

In amateur photo gear in the 1970s I was lucky to have an Oly OM1 compared to a Zenit E in the UK for their amateurs while visiting, or worse for France, a Zenit B with the lowly Industar 50 as a prime lens . Good photo gear was very expensive for most.

There is always a person worse off than you, so thank your lucky stars and stripes.
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Old 07-11-2018   #45
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Uh-uh, I saw George Soros wearing a "Film is dead" t-shirt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by css9450 View Post
And there we have it... The Koch brothers don't want us to be shooting film.
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Old 07-11-2018   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
Neither have I written nor have I meant that.
I'm trying to inject some humor into what is almost always an unpleasant discussion.
The poster above me caught the joke.
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Old 07-11-2018   #47
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Kodak films have been one of very few America manufactured products that are competitive in the rest of the world. That's not because the rest of the world treats the US so unfairly. I can't say I'm sure why it is, but I strongly suspect it's because the US has been real shielded from competition, not only through trade barriers, but also because the US Dollar as the world's most important currency has been so strong (for mostly political, not purely economic reasons) that buying foreign products from abroad has been cheaper for Dollar earners for a long time. It's one of the downsides of being a superpower. Looking around here in Germany, what American made products can I purchase? Some fast-food related stuff such as bbq sauces, a few brands of Bourbon, Leathermans, 3M tape. And Kodak films. European manufacturers face the same stiff competition from the far East, but seem to stand up to it better. The German manufacturers have advantages of an (for the German economy) undervalued currency and fairly low labor cost, but other European manufacturers also seem to do ok. If the US think their comparative advantage lies in raw products (petroleum, soy, wheat, meat), oh well. These are important exports that a less developed country could produce. Not all is lost though, American companies earn huge sums with services rather than goods in countries around the world and some of the biggest companies pay hardly a cent in taxes to our governments/societies.
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Old 07-11-2018   #48
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Silly discussion at this point

- clicks off RFF window...
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Old 07-11-2018   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
.....It's only temporary.....

....Relax, it won't last forever.......

In the long run we'll be much better off.
Those that survive will be.

Forever is a relative term. While many will feel many little cuts or pokes, many will have their lives ripped apart. Farmers who are seeing the price of their corn continue to drop. Manufacturers who are wondering about raw material price increases and tariffs to countries they sell into.

All it will take for another farm crisis (remember the 1980's) is more of this.

Sad thing is that we all want the same thing. It seems our approach to addressing the issue is very different.

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Old 07-11-2018   #50
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So sit on my dollars or buy film to fill my fridge?

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Old 07-11-2018   #51
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...... Some extremely greedy people who even want more money and power. Like the Koch brothers. And these guys have no interest at all in fair trade.
.......
Those brothers learned everything they know about making money from the Hunt Brothers doing a number on silver back in the late 70s......

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Old 07-11-2018   #52
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I've taken a liking to this Shanghai GP3 film lately, but I missed the days of $2 rolls. Its now around $5 and watch it'll probably go up with the new tariffs!
Not bad stuff but be careful with it as the emulsion is brittle.
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Old 07-11-2018   #53
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Not bad stuff but be careful with it as the emulsion is brittle.

So far I've been pleased with it... But that's based on a very small sample. Three rolls. Hopefully I'm not jinxing myself.
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Old 07-11-2018   #54
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Iím curious for those in Canada paying stoopid high prices for film. Can u not mail order from the US or are there high customs fees etc?
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Old 07-11-2018   #55
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As long as you don't buy film made in China, you should notice no difference.
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Old 07-11-2018   #56
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
As long as you don't buy film made in China, you should notice no difference.
A lot of the Ďingredientsí that go into making film comes from China. No matter where that final product is made.
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Old 07-11-2018   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaniagua View Post
So sit on my dollars or buy film to fill my fridge?

Marcelo
Marcelo,

A good question. Depends...

In the worse case trade wars can have unintended consequences like create the Great Depression. During a worldwide economic collapse it is best to hold assets and wait it out. This is what Joseph Kennedy did. He bought distressed assets and moved his family to Florida to enjoy the low cost of living to wait it out. I consider this what the "Smart Money" will do (the very rich).

The other unintended consequence is inflation where paper money looses value and is eventually becomes both worth-less and becomes worthless.

I frame this with my bias as a globalist who is pro free-trade with an understanding that price controls do not work in either capitalist systems, socialized systems, or communist systems.

Tarriffs can be looked upon as a subsidy to support or favor a product or industry, and economic theory indicates that subsidies have the inadvertent consequence of raising prices.

Then there is this thing called "Disinflation" where cheap products from China allowed Americans to maintain a certain standard of living for decades even though their wages have been stagnant over those very same decades.

There is a compounding: places where there is excess labor means labor costs are cheap like China and Asia. Places where there is not abundance of labor like the U.S. and Europe labor costs are high. I don't think I-phones could be made in the U.S. without huge price increases. I also don't think Kodak film will become cheaper either.

What is helpful to understand is that deflation is really "excess supply" and this translates into lower prices. The disinflation we have enjoyed over the past decades is tied to excess supply pushing down prices. The opposite happens when there is not enough supply meaning shortages cause price increases.

No clarity at this point other than if things esculate economies (even in the U.S.) will suffer, especially in the developing world, and expect higher prices. Over the long-long term though, if the U.S. seals its borders, quits NATO, and pretty much isolates itself from the world it is a vast enough country to exist on its own, but I don't think I would want to live here. I don't expect good things to happen with my understandings.

Cal
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Old 07-11-2018   #58
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Old 07-11-2018   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
I’m curious for those in Canada paying stoopid high prices for film. Can u not mail order from the US or are there high customs fees etc?
Huss,

Part of the higher price is their VAT.

Cal

Postscript: Most of the Canadian population actually lives close to the border. Traveling to the U.S. to do shopping binges avoids the VAT. In my border crossings I think about $700.00 worth of goods is allowed if I remember correctly.
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Last edited by Calzone : 07-11-2018 at 10:43. Reason: PostScript:
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Old 07-11-2018   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
Marcelo,

A good question. Depends...

In the worse case trade wars can have unintended consequences like create the Great Depression. During a worldwide economic collapse it is best to hold assets and wait it out. This is what Joseph Kennedy did. He bought distressed assets and moved his family to Florida to enjoy the low cost of living to wait it out. I consider this what the "Smart Money" will do (the very rich).

The other unintended consequence is inflation where paper money looses value and is eventually becomes both worth-less and becomes worthless.

I frame this with my bias as a globalist who is pro free-trade with an understanding that price controls do not work in either capitalist systems, socialized systems, or communist systems.

Tarriffs can be looked upon as a subsidy to support or favor a product or industry, and economic theory indicates that subsidies have the inadvertent consequence of raising prices.

Then there is this thing called "Disinflation" where cheap products from China allowed Americans to maintain a certain standard of living for decades even though their wages have been stagnant over those very same decades.

There is a compounding: places where there is excess labor means labor costs are cheap like China and Asia. Places where there is not abundance of labor like the U.S. and Europe labor costs are high. I don't think I-phones could be made in the U.S. without huge price increases. I also don't think Kodak film will become cheaper either.

What is helpful to understand is that deflation is really "excess supply" and this translates into lower prices. The disinflation we have enjoyed over the past decades is tied to excess supply pushing down prices. The opposite happens when there is not enough supply meaning shortages cause price increases.

No clarity at this point other than if things esculate economies (even in the U.S.) will suffer, especially in the developing world, and expect higher prices. Over the long-long term though, if the U.S. seals its borders, quits NATO, and pretty much isolates itself from the world it is a vast enough country to exist on its own, but I don't think I would want to live here. I don't expect good things to happen with my understandings.

Cal
Thanks for you thoughts Cal. My reasoning is, I don't want to contribute to an artificial demand increase, by buying and stocking like there is no tomorrow, like when a film is discontinued and the price goes up even thought film wasn't specially good to begin with.

Lets see how this comes out.


Marcelo
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Old 07-11-2018   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Iím curious for those in Canada paying stoopid high prices for film. Can u not mail order from the US or are there high customs fees etc?
It used to be pretty good to buy from BH. I would do a couple hundred dollars and get a pretty good haul. This was when we were like 0.85usd to on par.

Now with it being 80 or less it's not so great. The prices can get high. Think like $10-12 for a roll of Tri-X.

I used to slam the local camera shops for having such high prices when BH could be had for much cheaper. Since the dollar went back down the shops are much more reasonable because of the competition with BH.

Downtown Camera in Toronto was a pretty big target for me back then but in the last couple years they have really helped bolster film in the city. They do great work and I always make the effort to recommend them.

(right now I'm bulk rolling so I couldn't tell you what film prices are like there at them moment)
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Old 07-11-2018   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaniagua View Post
Thanks for you thoughts Cal. My reasoning is, I don't want to contribute to an artificial demand increase, by buying and stocking like there is no tomorrow, like when a film is discontinued and the price goes up even thought film wasn't specially good to begin with.

Lets see how this comes out.


Marcelo
Marcelo,

I'm hoping for the best, but this is all very dangerous.

We talk about the cost of film, but the effects and consequences should be of great concern and worry. There could be great disruption on a scale we can't ever imagine.

Generally they say in a trade war no-one wins.

Cal
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Old 07-11-2018   #63
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Originally Posted by BLKRCAT View Post
It used to be pretty good to buy from BH. I would do a couple hundred dollars and get a pretty good haul. This was when we were like 0.85usd to on par.

Now with it being 80 or less it's not so great. The prices can get high. Think like $10-12 for a roll of Tri-X.

I used to slam the local camera shops for having such high prices when BH could be had for much cheaper. Since the dollar went back down the shops are much more reasonable because of the competition with BH.

Downtown Camera in Toronto was a pretty big target for me back then but in the last couple years they have really helped bolster film in the city. They do great work and I always make the effort to recommend them.

(right now I'm bulk rolling so I couldn't tell you what film prices are like there at them moment)
B,

Thanks for this post. I was not aware of how the exchange rate tempered things. On one trip to Montreal the Loonie was on par with the Greenback. Then on a trip to Toronto the Loonie dipped in my favor.

The other way around must be brutal.

Cal
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Old 07-11-2018   #64
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Just look at rising gas prices to see whats on the horizon for photo and a lot of other goods..
It hasn't looked great here for awhile now..no matter what the politicians etc are sayin..
And most economists are indicating..we are at the top of the economic cycle now..and due in for a major fall soon..
I'm in business..and except for the wealthy..esp overseas wealthy..those are the only people spending..as in..weak usd..
I would say..buy now..what you need..before inflation and rising prices come to fruition..even an extra camera body or 2..just so you are covered..
Or wait..for a depression to buy up the scraps..
....pick your poison..
The US has never been so weak and debilitated both psychologically and in a world sense..in my lifetime..
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Old 07-11-2018   #65
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So sit on my dollars or buy film to fill my fridge?

Marcelo
Marcelo,

One thing that has to be remembered: when economies collapse the first thing that is done is currencies are manipulated, devalued and debased. This can be performed by dropping interest rates or revaluing the currency.

I'm close to retirement so I have to consider the worse case, and there are two extremely bad outcomes under a full blown economic war: China could launch their "Nuclear Weapon" and sell some or all of the U.S. Treasuries (Bonds) that would kinda destroy the market for them.

This would prevent our government from operating since we borrow money to fund our government. Also our banking system would collapse, and so would other markets. This is not the U.S. devaluing or debasing their currency, but this is China taking down and destroying the U.S. economy.

Of course China would have to absorb huge loses, but realize they have a massive stockpile of bonds to basically kill the U.S. economy and can be used as a weapon, a deadly weapon. I say the U.S. is in a very bad space and vulnerable. Most Americans don't know it.

A while back China did sell some bonds to punish the U.S. over some other trade policy. They only released a tad, and the effect was it immediate: it took down the markets and there was a massive sell-off. This happened under George W. Bush when he was President.

So imagine a country with enough U.S. Bonds that they could create a U.S. recession on demand. The U.S. could be literally choked by its own debt.

Another Chinese weapon is that their government could devalue their currency which has been "pegged" as undervalued in relation to the U.S. dollar. I expect China to do this first before using their "Nuclear Weapon." Pretty much China takes a loss on the devaluation, but gains the upper hand by being able to maintain a competitive advantage. This is like in a game of Chess: a forced move.

The advantages of the U.S. is that it is the largest economy, an import economy, and that it has the dollar, but that dollar in the above example because of debt is a liability and weakness.

If I can say that Europe is tied to Germany's export economy for prosperity, and that China is also an export economy that is the second largest, I say in the squeeze between the U.S. and China, Europe will suffer greatly as collateral damage. Perhaps the worse off will be developing countries that supply raw materials to the developed world.

This is a very-very dangerous game to play. I don't think Trump is much of a Chess player, I don't think he can think three or more moves ahead.

Sorry if talking the "end-game" is unplesent. Film prices are the least of my worries. In this game everyone looses.

Cal
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Old 07-11-2018   #66
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Quote:
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Iím curious for those in Canada paying stoopid high prices for film. Can u not mail order from the US or are there high customs fees etc?
Huss, I order my film from B&H. I've also bought from Keith Canham (5x7 TMY-2). Customs fees are not a concern. The biggest difference is the U.S./Canadian Exchanges rate.....currently at roughly 1.3x. A few years back the U.S/Cdn $ was at par.
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Old 07-11-2018   #67
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Quote:
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...

Downtown Camera in Toronto was a pretty big target for me back then but in the last couple years they have really helped bolster film in the city. They do great work and I always make the effort to recommend them.

(right now I'm bulk rolling so I couldn't tell you what film prices are like there at them moment)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
I’m curious for those in Canada paying stoopid high prices for film. Can u not mail order from the US or are there high customs fees etc?
Not so many cost effective shipping from USA by most of on-line USA based film sellers. Except BH. Free shipping after 100 USD. It used to be by reliable and Canadian Purolator with USPS. But yearler this year for some next to laughable reasons BH switched to most crappiest courier company a.k.a UPS. The reason BH gave - someone complained about Purolator. No kidding... Which is totally ridiculous official reason to switch to ridiculous UPS.
But I was able to get some items via UPS from BH here already.
Just don't know if we will bomb Voronezh here and increase our taxes and tariffs on film just because.

Right now Downtown Camera Toronto wants 252 CAD + 13% on 100f bulk of Kodak BW film.
https://www.downtowncamera.com/categ...ock/35mm-film/
BH has it for 80 USD. With shipping and taxes fully paid it is ... 100 USD.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...%7c100ft-roll&
Comparing to 285 CAD from BLKRCAT local favorite.
100 USD vs 285 CAD for exactly same bulk of film. Obviously, 0.80, 0.85 or 0.75 as exchange rate is not an argument, it is totally irrelevant at this huge price difference.
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Old 07-11-2018   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe.;2821284
Right now Downtown Camera Toronto wants 252 CAD + 13% on 100f bulk of Kodak BW film.
[url
https://www.downtowncamera.com/category/film/film-stock/35mm-film/[/url]
BH has it for 80 USD. With shipping and taxes fully paid it is ... 100 USD.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...%7c100ft-roll&
Comparing to 285 CAD from BLKRCAT local favorite.
100 USD vs 285 CAD for exactly same bulk of film. Obviously, 0.80, 0.85 or 0.75 as exchange rate is not an argument, it is totally irrelevant at this huge price difference.

No one buys bulk tri-x. But their price is high for it. I can't explain it. However being an AM/FM member gets you 20% off all kodak and 10% off all darkroom and other film so if you wanted to get a bulk roll of tri-x from DT camera it could cost you $227.80.

Right now with AM/FM club membership a brick of tri-x 36 exp is $87.51. Tax in.
BH same brick $98.35 in CAD with duty shipping and taxes.

No shipping, pick up in store. Downtown camera you can get an extra roll for the cost at BH.
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Old 07-11-2018   #69
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Back on topic, these Canadian film prices are of great interest to me.

Cal
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Old 07-11-2018   #70
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Canada is nice!
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Old 07-11-2018   #71
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One positive note I read last week was six steel Mills in the US are reopening and US factories located in China are relocating back to the US. Imo this is a huge plus for the US. More jobs for American workers. For so long we've allowed our trade deficit to spiral out of control. That's bad for US workers and US security. The US can't sustain this.

Nothing political and nothing personal here.
Hi,

"Relocated" meaning coming back to the USA? So who decided to move them there in the first place? Not the Chinese, surely....

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Old 07-11-2018   #72
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Hi,

"Relocated" meaning coming back to the USA? So who decided to move them there in the first place? Not the Chinese, surely....

Regards, David
Dear David,

OF COURSE it was the wicked Chinese! Can't trust 'em, you know! A decent, God-fearing American company wouldn't consider moving production offshore except at gunpoint. Or of course unless they saw the possibility of a 0.01% increase in profits and a 50% increase in executive bonuses.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 07-11-2018   #73
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Average profit margin for US business across the board is 7.5%. Where I live state and local taxes are 8%, so the state makes more than the (average) business per dollar spent.

Increasing the margin 0.01% is a big deal for a big company with millions/billions throughput.
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Old 07-11-2018   #74
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Hi,

I guess it's all relative:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44725026

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Old 07-11-2018   #75
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Dear David,

OF COURSE it was the wicked Chinese! Can't trust 'em, you know! A decent, God-fearing American company wouldn't consider moving production offshore except at gunpoint. Or of course unless they saw the possibility of a 0.01% increase in profits and a 50% increase in executive bonuses.

Cheers,

R.

You're right Roger. Who else would do such a thing? I'm just glad the USA is not driven by profit; there's hope for us all.


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Old 07-11-2018   #76
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A number of years ago I hired a Chrysler PT Cruiser during a trip to the midwest. It was great fun in an American road trip context. But quality-wise, it was laughably poor. Actually, indescribably poor. European and Japanese cars sell in the US because because of their design, engineering and overall quality. All of those things require the kinds of public investment that the US economic model doesn't support.

In any event, the predominance of global supply chains for most consumer goods makes unilaterally aggressive moves on trade even less sensible (or effective in the short term - and they are only ever effective in the short term) than they were previously.

Even an economy as large as the US can't operate on a closed basis.
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Old 07-11-2018   #77
BillBingham2
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

"Relocated" meaning coming back to the USA? So who decided to move them there in the first place? Not the Chinese, surely....

Regards, David
But they teased us, all dolled up in low cost wages, non-existent worker safety rules, no unions, government health care, how could any executive with his (or her) sole responsibility to improving the bottom line in a company resist?

It's our fault when the responsibility to shareholders became more important than the responsibility to customers, employees, retirees, and civilization in general.

We lost it when changed the companies vision from bringing new products and services to the market to that of bringing more profit than we did last year to our shareholders. It's been a race to the lowest common denominator that the 1% has won and the 99% has lost over the past 40 years.

B2 (;->
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Old 07-11-2018   #78
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Back in the 70's..the auto industry lost it to Japan..remember the Vega..and Gremlin..and..Matador..and a host of others.. Poor quality..they thought they could be successful with that..lol..
I bought a 78 Chevy to show support for USA workers..biggest pos I ever bought..always breaking down..switched to Japanese..and never returned..
Then..people wanted cheap Chinese everyday goods..middle America just couldn't get enough of it..and still cant..Walmart and such..prospered..we lost manufacturing.. and jobs..and business ethics..
The American public..didn't give a rats ass..just wanted $10- jeans and cheep appliances..still do..
We made our bed over many years...we have to lie in it..
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Old 07-11-2018   #79
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"Canada is nice!"

Never live anywhere you can't grow tomatoes out of doors...
Ever heard of a greenhouse..lol..

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Average profit margin for US business across the board is 7.5%.
Where did ya get those figures???
Any business..with a 7.5% profit margin..is soon..out of business..
Unless its Wall street..makin money..off..nothing..
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Old 07-11-2018   #80
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Back in the 70's..the auto industry lost it to Japan..remember the Vega..and Gremlin..and..Matador..and a host of others.. Poor quality..they thought they could be successful with that..lol..
I bought a 78 Chevy to show support for USA workers..biggest pos I ever bought..always breaking down..switched to Japanese..and never returned..
.
My college car was a AMC Hornet, which was the cousin of the Gremlin! I used to refer to it as a "faithful car". It broke down regularly but only locally and never on trips.
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