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Old 1 Week Ago   #81
Jamie Pillers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geetist View Post
I stopped reading after Point 1.
Not sure if this is a troll. but...
Film cameras do make you a better photographer.
Mary Ellen Mark and Elliot Erwitt agreed as well.
Nick is definitely not a troll. He's been in charge of RFF's "Put Up the Targets and See if Anyone Can Knock Them Down" department for years. (As always, thank you, Nick.)

And to add my contribution to this excellent nonsense, I'll repeat what I recently posted elsewhere: As a test, I just finished printing photos at 17"x22", one from each of the following type camera sensors: full frame (Nikon Df), APS-H (SD Quattro H), APS-C (Fuji X-T2), m4/3 (GX85), 1" (Nikon 1 V3), and 1/1.7" (Canon S95). I found that at normal viewing distance to prints on the wall, there's no substantive difference. At least no difference from an art-viewing point of view. I'm sure a pixel peeper would find faults, but for me, not much. And it turns out that the one print from the test that I'm going to frame for our walls is the one from the little Canon S95 file. :-)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers View Post
And it turns out that the one print from the test that I'm going to frame for our walls is the one from the little Canon S95 file. :-)
Clearly a mistake.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #83
Jamie Pillers
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Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
Clearly a mistake.

Whenever the wife chooses, it cannot be a mistake!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emraphoto View Post
I am well. Alive is a great condition to suffer

All this camera and megapixel talk seems akin to the ponies before the cart to me.
Yeah, hardware.. if you look at all the great pictures that have been taken, few would wonder about what camera they were made with. Large vs smaller format sometimes comes up among photographer friends, but even that is pretty rare.

When sensors got to a clean 12 MP, I quit worrying about digital quality. Our time is better spent with image content, but, you know that !

Now, camera strap color, that's serious stuff..

Good to hear your healthy and happy.

pkr
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Old 1 Week Ago   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers View Post
Whenever the wife chooses, it cannot be a mistake!
Aint that the truth!

This is a very entertaining thread.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMur12 View Post
This is about the third time I have read Nick disparage Canon sensors, and I have no reason to doubt his personal sincerity.

I'm still waiting, however, for a Canon user to push back on this assertion.

- Murray
Canon user, fully bought in, multiple bodies etc.

Canon sensors have lagged behind.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gid View Post
As a Canon 6D user (as well as Nikon Df, D600 and D610 former user) I am happy to disagree with Nick's assertion that Canon sensors are pants. There is a world of difference between DXO's tests and real world usage and in the real world I've always found Canon's sensors to be just fine (former user of Canon 5D, 5Dii, 40D, 60D). At high ISO the 6D is on par with the Df and better than the D600/D610. Overall, image quality from Nikon or Canon won't let you down and other features should probably drive your brand choice. As I said in my previous post, how lucky are we to have so much choice and at reasonable prices (moot, I know).
They aren't "pants" but they have lagged behind in terms of Dynamic range, and there's a truly embarrassing number of the consumer models that have the same sensor over a period of years while other manufacturers were making improvements.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #88
Bill Clark
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Canon works just fine for me.

Even my old 20D from 2004 still works great.

I only capture with RAW. Easy peasy to process with my iMac and ACR.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackXList View Post
Canon user, fully bought in, multiple bodies etc.

Canon sensors have lagged behind.
Canon user ,currently a 5d3.
Also use Sony sensors in an A7S and A7R2.

They`re different but I do like the Canon sensor oh and the 12mp A7S sensor.
Sometimes the A7R2 has too much resolution for my taste but I don`t fret about any of this to be honest .
I just use whatever I pick up Ö. I`m more concerned about the shot ie will the content be there.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Markey View Post
...
I just use whatever I pick up Ö. I`m more concerned about the shot ie will the content be there.
Agree, so I do.
And Canons all do their jobs very fine. From cheap Rebels to 5/6D.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #91
Michael Markey
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Yes it’s amazing how easy and intuitive Canons are .
It’s no wonder that half the world uses them .
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Old 1 Week Ago   #92
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I think Canon makes the cameras of this age.
Nothing special but fully useable.
When it goes particular others like Fuji or Sony or others may perform better.

But how much does this matter?

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Old 1 Week Ago   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel100 View Post
I think Canon makes the cameras of this age.
Nothing special but fully useable.
When it goes particular others like Fuji or Sony or others may perform better.

But how much does this matter?

The better camera is the one you're most comfortable using. The one that will get used to make photos you like. The rest is bs, in my opinion. Most modern digital cameras will produce good technical results. The sensor size may be critical for some, in some critical usage. But, 95% of the time, the camera you like, is the one you will/should use, regardless of sensor size or photo site population.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #94
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Often, 'the best' does not have the right qualities for what a person needs. And 'good enough' is better than 'the best'.
When I was a bare-faced youngling, Hasselblad was 'the best', but almost any 35mm camera of the era was way better, because they were good enough, lighter, faster and more versatile.
To my perverse mind, none of the nikons proposed are good enough. Too big, awkward controls and ugly.
Sorry Nick, but you're wrong.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #95
sepiareverb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers View Post
Whenever the wife chooses, it cannot be a mistake!
I often hear the old "Happy wife , happy life" saying 'round here.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #96
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I'm going to go against the crowd here and say that Nick's rant is disturbingly compelling. I've never really looked at Nikon before because I was first with Canon, and after my escape from DSLR's, never really looked back. But the notion of a very inexpensive full frame DSLR with a handful of fast, high quality and inexpensive primes is intriguing.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archiver View Post
and after my escape from DSLR's, never really looked back. But the notion of a very inexpensive full frame DSLR with a handful of fast, high quality and inexpensive primes is intriguing.
Exactly what I went through Ö. I still don`t like the bulk but hey you can`t have everything.

Its like PKR says Ö. its the one that gets the pictures you like and the rest is BS.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #98
Barry Kirsten
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I can't help agreeing with Archiver... Nick has stated very honestly what many of us (myself included) are are in denial about, that analogue photography is dying. It depresses me that photography is heading slowly but surely toward a digital future, where everything is controlled by software algorithms of which most of us have no understanding and the skill involved is not with the hands on a film or print but in knowing how to use a mouse.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #99
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47 seconds that will never come back...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTrop View Post
Oh c'mon. I was the biggest film advocate out there, insisted on shooting it and defended it as "superior" well into the digital era. That was me. Had film cameras -- mostly rangefinders, in every corner of my man-cave. Rolled my own on spent cartridges given to from the (closed -- now a bird feeder store) camera shop down the street. Am no strager to Jobo tanks, D76, and Dektol. Was the "hipster" guy shootig a giant Yashica GSN (every so often an old guy stopping me saying, "I had one of those!") at events when everyone else was clicking their digital point-n-shoots (now also obsolete) or cell phones. Do note, I have nearly 3,000 posts on this forum.

However, it's obviously obsolete. I'll save that rant possibly for another day. However, there is a reason why Kodak is in the sorry shape it's in, and why very few new film cameras are still made. Why -- despite living in a suburb of a major city with a population larger than many US states, I now have to mail out rolls of color prints when I could walk 1/4-1/2 mile in any direction and have film processed and color prints made not s' long ago. Why it's disappeared from the shelves and I have to order film online. Why very few pro's still use it. Why not really that young people -- not kids, may have never even seen an actual film camera in their lives.

There is such a thing as "wisdom of the crowd".

I stll keep a few cameras around -- let's see I have a Nikon AF L35, Pentax PC35 AF, an Olympus XA, and a Fujica Compact Deluxe and have some rolls in the fridge. (Do note -- these are small cameras except for the Fuji. If there's one advantage small format still has it's "full frame in your pocket".) I get it. But let's get real.
You might be right, perhaps you're wrong, either way you were a lot more interesting when you were posting about film camera stuff, Nick. This topic is as boring as bat****. By all means argue your case, if you must, but try talking to your audience, and not at them (which really is what your first post did).
Best,
Brett
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Old 1 Week Ago   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Kirsten View Post
I can't help agreeing with Archiver... Nick has stated very honestly what many of us (myself included) are are in denial about, that analogue photography is dying. It depresses me that photography is heading slowly but surely toward a digital future, where everything is controlled by software algorithms of which most of us have no understanding and the skill involved is not with the hands on a film or print but in knowing how to use a mouse.
I dont agree, film photography may not be the mainstream choice but it is very much alive, albeit at a smaller, more specialized level. If you look on the current trends of Hollywood celebs you'll see a number of them sporting small contax's and shooting film. It's very on trend. Which will likely convert a lot of younger people to using film.

I see you're from VIC - I know the guys that run hillvale lab in Brunswick just outside Melbourne city and they run flat out developing and scanning film all year round. If I recall they hit their 50,000th roll after 3 years running in 2016 - their customer base is largely younger folks.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #102
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What, me worry?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #103
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Is this what we're really all about? Or, am I just not getting it... again?

I read the news today, oh boy
About a lucky man who made the grade
And though the news was rather sad
Well, I just had to laugh
I saw the photograph

-- John Lennon
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Old 1 Week Ago   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinlg View Post
I dont agree, film photography may not be the mainstream choice but it is very much alive, albeit at a smaller, more specialized level. If you look on the current trends of Hollywood celebs you'll see a number of them sporting small contax's and shooting film. It's very on trend. Which will likely convert a lot of younger people to using film.

I see you're from VIC - I know the guys that run hillvale lab in Brunswick just outside Melbourne city and they run flat out developing and scanning film all year round. If I recall they hit their 50,000th roll after 3 years running in 201 - their customer base is largely younger folks.
Exactly. But anyway, why would I care if film photography is dead or not? If I was the only person in the world doing it, I'd still do it - doesn't affect me what other people do, in fact if everyone suddenly stopped using film that would be more left for me (I'd need to get an extra freezer though). But as a matter of fact, some companies produce film and make a profit, and even if the market should eventually shrink again, I'm sure it would stabilize at a lower level. I don't get the idea that "film is dead" so you have to stop using it.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #105
David Hughes
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Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
I often hear the old "Happy wife , happy life" saying 'round here.
Hmmm, I thought wife meant trouble and strife or, perhaps, vice versa...

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...ble-and-strife

Regards, David
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Old 1 Week Ago   #106
Tompas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTrop View Post
(...) There is such a thing as "wisdom of the crowd". (...)
No, Nick, there is not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
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Old 1 Week Ago   #107
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Originally Posted by BlackXList View Post
They aren't "pants" but they have lagged behind in terms of Dynamic range, and there's a truly embarrassing number of the consumer models that have the same sensor over a period of years while other manufacturers were making improvements.
Not bashing Canon -- at all. They have the lion's share of the overall camera market and seem to be what most pros use (not sure why this is...), and their cameras -- I'm sure, are fine. However, if you're looking for the camera with the best sensor specs in terms of low light, DR, and bit depth Nikon and Sony are the current leaders. Nikon (stands to reason) because they use Sony (and Tower Jazz) sensors. Facts are facts:

Nikon D850 -- 100
Sony AR7 III -- 100
Sony AR7 II -- 98
Nikon D810 -- 97
Sony RX1R II -- 97
Pentax K1 -- 96
Nikon D800E -- 96
Sony A7 III -- 96
Sony A7R -- 95
Nikon D800 -- 95
Nikon D600 -- 94 (<-- $6-700 USD minty, used. My choice. Reasonably small/light for FF. Weather sealed. Dual slots. U1 and U2 settings. Price/performace leader.)
Nikon D610 -- 94
Nikon D750 -- 93
|
|
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV -- 91 (Highest rated FF Canon sensor on DXO list)
|
|
Leica SL (Type 601) -- 88 (Highest rated FF Leica sensor on DXO list)
|
Leica M10 -- 86 -- (The highest-rated crop sensor is the Nikon D7200, which DXO rates an 87, FWIW)

Ratings based on sensor lab tests weighted average of dynamic range, bit depth, and low-light performance/SN levels.

https://www.dxomark.com/cameras/bran...taType=rankDxo
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Hmmm...
Old 1 Week Ago   #108
David Hughes
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Hmmm...

Hi,

The "wisdom of the crowd" was described as the stupid led by the wicked once, iirc.

Regards, David
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Hmmm (2)
Old 1 Week Ago   #109
David Hughes
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Hmmm (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTrop View Post
Not bashing Canon -- at all. They have the lion's share of the overall camera market and seem to be what most pros use (not sure why this is...), and their cameras -- I'm sure, are fine. However, if you're looking for the camera with the best sensor specs in terms of low light, DR, and bit depth Nikon and Sony are the current leaders. Nikon (stands to reason) because they use Sony (and Tower Jazz) sensors. Facts are facts:

Nikon D850 -- 100
Sony AR7 III -- 100
Sony AR7 II -- 98
Nikon D810 -- 97
Sony RX1R II -- 97
Pentax K1 -- 96
Nikon D800E -- 96
Sony A7 III -- 96
Sony A7R -- 95
Nikon D800 -- 95
Nikon D600 -- 94 (<-- $6-700 USD minty, used. My choice. Reasonably small/light for FF. Weather sealed. Dual slots. U1 and U2 settings. Price/performace leader.)
Nikon D610 -- 94
Nikon D750 -- 93
|
|
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV -- 91 (Highest rated FF Canon sensor on DXO list)
|
|
Leica SL (Type 601) -- 88 (Highest rated FF Leica sensor on DXO list)
|
Leica M10 -- 86 -- (The highest-rated crop sensor is the Nikon D7200, which DXO rates an 87, FWIW)

Ratings based on sensor lab tests weighted average of dynamic range, bit depth, and low-light performance/SN levels.

https://www.dxomark.com/cameras/bran...taType=rankDxo
But what have numbers got to do with photography?

There are times when I wonder what would happen if all the photos taken with "inferior" cameras were banned, including the historic and classic ones. The banned list would be very interesting...

Regards, David
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Old 1 Week Ago   #110
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But what have numbers got to do with photography?
What the numbers have to do with photography, is that photography is taken with imaging gear -- specifically cameras and lenses. Hardware. This hardware can be objectively evaluated technically, rated, and ranked. Better gear can help you take better pictures. A camera that performs better in low light will result in cleaner images in available light shooting. Likewise better dynamic range and bit-depth can result in a technically better image. This popular RAW editor maker, DXO, does the legwork in a lab, evaluates sensors and lenses, plunks them in a database for public access. Mighty sporting of them.

I want -- for my hardly earned dollars, technically, the very best available camera with which to take pictures for the least dollars spent. I've posted many pictures here, as you see I need all the help I can get!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #111
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Originally Posted by NickTrop View Post
What the numbers have to do with photography, is that photography is taken with imaging gear -- specifically cameras and lenses. Hardware.
The DSLR-man is a considerate consumer. He weighs his gear options conscientiously in the clean, efficient space of his web-browser. For DSLR-man buying gear is like a game of Tetris. He very much wants to achieve the highest score and tries to do so by filling the gaps in his foam-padded velcro bag with perfectly chosen, sensible pieces. What DSLR-man can't be expected to know is that there are any number of places and situations where his plastic super-soaker hand-canon simply won't do.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #112
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Actually a FF DSLR is an inferior imaging tool at least compared to the newest Digibacks yo might have pretty big upfront costs but the quality can't be beat. :-)

But seriously analogue photography digital photography is like oil and acrylic paint. Most people use acrylic paint because you can get great results and it's not as time intensive and difficult as oil yet there are still painters using oil. Both medium can and do exist side by side the same applies to digital and analogue photography. Many more people use digital but that doesn't render analogue photography obsolete.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ccoppola82 View Post
I have this weird way of choosing my gear.
1. Does it take photos that I like? Yes or no
2. Do I enjoy using the camera or lens? Yes or no

If the answer is yes to both, I tend to carry and use it. End result, I take more photos.

Thatís it. Pretty simple. Then again Iím not a pro, nor do I enlarge to monstrous sizes.
+1 Same logic here.

Got some cameras that should be superior (Canon 6d) but most of the time I stick with cameras like Bessa T, Leica LTM and M or Olympus OM's.

If it is fun to use the go. Otherwise, they stay home.

Marcelo
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Old 1 Week Ago   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers View Post
Whenever the wife chooses, it cannot be a mistake!
You will live a long and happy life man. Wisdom of the ages


Marcelo
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Old 1 Week Ago   #115
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Originally Posted by NickTrop View Post
We are now categorizing individuals based on their sartorial choices? "DSLR-men"? I am giving you a road map -- the one true correct logical path to navigate a sea of confusing choices.

If these choices were programmed into Watson or some other narrow AI Von Neumann box with sophisticated algorithms designed for THE one optimal price/performance solution for gear choice, there is no doubt in my mind its and my own choices would exacty align.

1. APS digital cameras? No. Since when was APS ever any good? Smaller? Even worse. This negates 85% of all gear out there excluding cell phones.

2. Small format film? No. Shoot it for fun. But it's obsolete. (Medium and large format film is stil fine, however.)

3. That leaves you with only full frame cameras. Which ones are best?

4. Answer: the ones with the best sensor specs. And there is great and surprising variance within this realm such as the surprisingly lackluster performance of Canon and Leica sensors according to DXO. That leaves with two vendor choices: Nikon or Sony (and one Pentax) based on impartial published independent evaluation available to all.

5. Sony is eliminated for a host of reasons pertaining to the bodies Sony chose to put their great sensors in. That leaves only Nikon (and a Pentax -- which is a viable contrarian choice...)

6. Which Nikon? The one with the highest price/performance ratio.

... and that clearly is a used Nikon D600 which has been greatly devalued due to some early production problems and associated bad PR by way of blog chatter...

I have applied equally impeccabe rationale to what lenses, what order to purchase them in -- and why. I won't rehash this now.

Nikon D600 with low actuations and the 50/1.4 AF-D. Used. ~ $870. (Add other lenses later...)

This clearly resolves the upper limit of the price/perforance ratio of currently available gear. Hands down. Bar none.

Let's see what Mr. Rockwell has to say about the matter -- for ducks. Well, well, well --

"The Nikon D600 is Nikon's best digital camera ever, at any price. The D600 has better image quality than any of Nikon's professional cameras like the $6,000 D4, and the D600 is the smallest and lightest full-frame digital camera ever from Nikon. The D600 has the best ergonomics and handling of any Nikon DSLR."

-- and he published this before one could be had used for $6-700 bucks. It slightly outperforms the current production D750 (94-93 per DXO) with the same resolution spec of 24MP, more than enough and relevant for some time to come, and bumps up against the top-of-the-line D810 rated at 97.

https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/d600.htm
DSLR talk? Itís been a while since I was last on RFF.
Iím assuming Nick is taking the piss, and this is tongue in cheek Ė and by the end of the post, I think it must be tongue tartare.

While I was doing my quantitative analysis and figuring out my leveraged depreciation (post #9) that guy jumped over the puddle behind Gare St. Lazare. Great! Geez!

Love the Flintstones frame, I wonder if thatís just the trash regular lens or asph?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #116
steveyork
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Kirsten View Post
I can't help agreeing with Archiver... Nick has stated very honestly what many of us (myself included) are are in denial about, that analogue photography is dying. It depresses me that photography is heading slowly but surely toward a digital future, where everything is controlled by software algorithms of which most of us have no understanding and the skill involved is not with the hands on a film or print but in knowing how to use a mouse.
People have been calling the death film for almost two decades now. I remember the old photo.net days, around year 2000, when all the blowhards were saying you wouldn't be able to even buy film in a few years.

If anything, that's a reason to shoot film; might as well use it while it is around, because some day you may not have a choice. Although I've come to the conclusion that film will always be around.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #117
Huss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveyork View Post

If anything, that's a reason to shoot film; might as well use it while it is around, because some day you may not have a choice. Although I've come to the conclusion that film will always be around.
Film is going to be around long after consumer digicams have faded away.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #118
mpaniagua
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Film is going to be around long after consumer digicams have faded away.
Film is going to be around as long as there is a monetary viable demand for it exist.

It is the same for painters brushes, oil paint and the like. As far as someone if willing to pay for it/need it, there will be someone willing to produce it/sell it.

If tomorrow people stopped used film at all, it will be the end of it. Period.

Best regards.

Marcelo
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Old 1 Week Ago   #119
kuuan
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No, no, no Nick, you got it all wrong!

I want small and light, the fun of using manual lenses and decent performance
Sony NEX5T + 16-50 kit zoom, Pen-F halfframe, old and new rangefinder lenses

Untitled by kuuan's lens tests, on Flickr
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Old 1 Week Ago   #120
Huss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaniagua View Post
Film is going to be around as long as there is a monetary viable demand for it exist.

It is the same for painters brushes, oil paint and the like. As far as someone if willing to pay for it/need it, there will be someone willing to produce it/sell it.

If tomorrow people stopped used film at all, it will be the end of it. Period.

Best regards.

Marcelo
Great because us film users will have nothing to worry about then.

Digicam users on the other hand, yeeeesh.
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