Photographic film is on the new list of tariffs
Old 5 Days Ago   #1
Huss
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Photographic film is on the new list of tariffs

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files...-10-2018_0.pdf

Starting at 3701.10.00 through 3707.90.60 photographic film products including chemicals are on the new list of $200 billion of tariffs announced today.
What is interesting is who this is going to effect. Fuji? Lomo? Agfa? This will really show where stuff is made and where the materials to make it come from.
My fridge is already full of film, but this shows how trade wars may effect us in ways we did not think of.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #2
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Change is good hope your electric is good too
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Old 5 Days Ago   #3
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Well, I am still trying to find the logic behind any of these new tariffs. Change isn't always good - especially if it's a step backward, or only beneficial to those who use everyone else as leverage for their personal gain.

With the price of film increasing steadily, it will be difficult to parse how much is due to tariffs, manufacturing, and if things continue on this path, inflation.

Time to load up on some more film, I guess. Thanks for the justification, Huss !
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Old 5 Days Ago   #4
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Old 5 Days Ago   #6
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Gosh, here's hoping the manufacturers start dumping film in Australia, where we pay roughly double US prices

Being more realistic, anything that depresses film sales is a Bad Thing.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #7
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I've taken a liking to this Shanghai GP3 film lately, but I missed the days of $2 rolls. Its now around $5 and watch it'll probably go up with the new tariffs!
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Old 5 Days Ago   #8
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Old 5 Days Ago   #9
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Okay... this just got personal. Film? Really?
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Old 5 Days Ago   #10
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Film is such a tiny area of market, will certainly suffer.
Change in this case is not good and those thinking that, well..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #11
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I can see the long defunct firm Ansco coming back to life and making film in the USA, as now it will be a closed shop in the US of A and super profitable.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #12
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This is just a way to bring countries to the table to negotiate unfare trade practices. It's only temporary. Other countries have been killing our industry for years through one sided trade practices. For example China has been dumping steel in the US below the cost of production which has helped destroy the US steel industry. China also imposes a 25% tariff on US cars and Canada imposes a nearly 300% tariff on US dairy. Europe does similar but they scream when we impose similar duties.

Another concern is intellectual property and technology theft. Even I have been a victim of intellectual property theft by China. Several of my copyrighted photographs have been used without consent on T shirts that were sold on Amazon.

The US has to get control of this and this is the way to get them to the table.

Relax, it won't last forever. Other countries export to the US many times what we export to them so sooner than later they're going to have to rebalance tariffs.

In the long run we'll be much better off.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
This is just a way to bring countries to the table to negotiate unfare trade practices. It's only temporary. Other countries have been killing our industry for years through one sided trade practices. For example China has been dumping steel in the US below the cost of production which has helped destroy the US steel industry. China also imposes a 25% tariff on US cars and Canada imposes a nearly 300% tariff on US dairy. Europe does similar but they scream when we impose similar duties.

Another concern is intellectual property and technology theft. Even I have been a victim of intellectual property theft by China. Several of my copyrighted photographs have been used without consent on T shirts that were sold on Amazon.

The US has to get control of this and this is the way to get them to the table.

Relax, it won't last forever. Other countries export to the US many times what we export to them so sooner than later they're going to have to rebalance tariffs.

In the long run we'll be much better off.
Canadian consumers pay exorbitant prices for cheese, even for humdrum run of the mill common domestically produced cheese, all thanks to the milk marketing board (CDC) to protect dairy farmers and stick it to everyone else.

Cheese in most other nations was always poor people's food and most of the common national varieties were always very affordable.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files...-10-2018_0.pdf

Starting at 3701.10.00 through 3707.90.60 photographic film products including chemicals are on the new list of $200 billion of tariffs announced today.
What is interesting is who this is going to effect. Fuji? Lomo? Agfa? This will really show where stuff is made and where the materials to make it come from.
My fridge is already full of film, but this shows how trade wars may effect us in ways we did not think of.
If I read that right, this is headed to products from China only, right?
Then it will have negative effects on
- Eastman Kodak, if they import some raw materials from China (which is probably the case)
- Lucky with their imports of RA-4 paper and BW film to the US market
- Shanghai with their imports to the US market, but that probably only in theory, because there is no official import to the US (afaik only some individual sellers doing it)
- maybe some Lomo films which are coated by Eastman Kodak and converted in China (which is definitely the case).

So the losers will be:
- american customers because of paying higher prices
- Eastman Kodak
- Lucky, Lomography, (Shanghai).

Well, in general: The American consumers and workers will suffer most in the long term.

The decisive question is: Is this only the first step? Will it be extended to European and Japanese manufacturers?
The other film and photo paper manufacturing plants are located in
- Japan (Fujifilm; film and paper)
- England (Harman technology; film and paper)

- Germany:
1. Adox (film and paper)
2. Inoviscoat (film and paper)
3. Filmotec (film)

- Netherlands (Fujifilm: photo paper; Polaroid Originals: film)
- Belgium (Agfa; film)
- Switzerland (Adox; film and paper)
- Czech (Foma; film and paper)
- Russia (Tasma: BW film; Slavich: BW paper).

If it is extended, then we all have a problem: All film photographers worldwide and all manufacturers.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 5 Days Ago   #15
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Moderators can we stop this thread. It is going to turn into a slogging thread about trade.

At the moment, I am irate and want to write a rebuttal to xray, but will hold my tongue. However, I know others won't.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post

The US has to get control of this and this is the way to get them to the table.

Relax, it won't last forever. Other countries export to the US many times what we export to them so sooner than later they're going to have to rebalance tariffs.

In the long run we'll be much better off.
It'll be pretty lonely at your table soon I suppose.

Large amounts of steel for the US automotive industry are made in The Netherlands by a subsidiary of Indian steel manufacturer Tata Steel.
The US factories are unable to produce the similar qualities and sq. ft. dimensions of steel, but they have relied on international trade to obtain that steel from the EU.

So either pay more for your Buicks and Fords yourselves, or invest in the process to manufacture your own. Allegedly it was a two-decade R&D process and it won't come cheap.

Meanwhile, the EU steel will probably go to Chinese and Indian markets (where they are eager to buy the superior product already), where there is a huge growth in automotive industries waiting to happen.

Sit at your table all you like, sooner or later the world will just carry on without the US.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannielscom View Post
It'll be pretty lonely at your table soon I suppose.

Large amounts of steel for the US automotive industry are made in The Netherlands by a subsidiary of Indian steel manufacturer Tata Steel.
The US factories are unable to produce the similar qualities and sq. ft. dimensions of steel, but they have relied on international trade to obtain that steel from the EU.

So either pay more for your Buicks and Fords yourselves, or invest in the process to manufacture your own. Allegedly it was a two-decade R&D process and it won't come cheap.

Meanwhile, the EU steel will probably go to Chinese and Indian markets (where they are eager to buy the superior product already), where there is a huge growth in automotive industries waiting to happen.

Sit at your table all you like, sooner or later the world will just carry on without the US.
This isn't a personal thing so let's not go there.

Birmingham and Besemer Alabama were steel centers at one time and now there's no evidence there was ever any steel production ever. Even near my home there was a manganese steel mill but it's gone now. Their product was used in automobiles.

One positive note I read last week was six steel Mills in the US are reopening and US factories located in China are relocating back to the US. Imo this is a huge plus for the US. More jobs for American workers. For so long we've allowed our trade deficit to spiral out of control. That's bad for US workers and US security. The US can't sustain this.

Nothing political and nothing personal here.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #18
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"Change is good......"

Let's just say what the whole world knows. No good is going to come from these tariff escalations.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maiku View Post
Moderators can we stop this thread. It is going to turn into a slogging thread about trade.

At the moment, I am irate and want to write a rebuttal to xray, but will hold my tongue. However, I know others won't.
I started this thread to let people know that film and film products are on the tariff list. A real thing. Not opinion.

People are discussing it, you don't like something that you've read so you demand the thread to be stopped? How about not reading it?
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Old 5 Days Ago   #20
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Nothing personal, that's a good thing to emphasise the next time you run into a US worker that loses his job because solar panel import from China has started collapsing. And please do mention it's a good thing he'll have a new job in coal mining soon. Politics down the line are always personal for someone!

Anyway, we'll see what happens over time, and I'm pretty confident Europe and Asia are holding the long end of the stick...

Back OT: at least there's a lot more film and chemicals made in my neck of the woods. The situation on the brexit is more worrisome to global film usage, since film's biggest advocate will soon also be in a market of its own, instead of inside the EU... Tariffs imposed there might kill film off much sooner than anyone would wish!


@Huss's latest comment: upvote!
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Old 5 Days Ago   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
In the long run we'll be much better off.
Sorry to say, but economic history has already proven you wrong:
It is nothing new: The same policy with starting trade wars and brutal protectionism was also the policy of the American government at the end of the 20ies / beginning 30ies.
The result:
The Great Depression.
The worst economic crisis ever.

Do yourself a favour and read a book about economics at that time.

And as someone who has worked also in the car industry in the past I can ensure you:
The weakness of the US steel and car industry has very little to do with tariffs.
It has to do with innovation, engineering, education and skilled workers. The US has become weaker to competitors in such decisive fields, and therefore has problems.

E.g. More European and Japanese cars are sold in the US than American cars are sold in Europe, Japan, China etc..
No one is forcing Americans to buy non American cars!!!
And no one in Europe is forcing consumers to buy only European cars instead of American cars.

The reasons for the success of European or Japanese cars on the American and European market are simple:
These cars are just much better than the American cars.
They are not generally cheaper than American cars. They are mostly even more expensive. It has nothing to do with different tariffs!
They are just superior. They have the better technology!
Even without any tariffs on it and much lower prices the Europeans, Japanese or Chinese would not buy more American cars.

Just talk to Europeans: They consider American cars as low technology, too big and with much too high fuel consumption. The American car industry has a very bad reputation there.

If you look at the Japanese or German educational system and compare it to the US system, you will immedeately recognise why the American car industry and other industrial sectors have lost in the competition.
The US must invest in education! The educational system in the US belongs to the worst of all industrialised countries.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #22
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They caught Niagara-on-the-Falls cops who were smuggling cheese from USA and selling to local restaurants.
And farmers have to dump extra milk on the fields in Canada. Lakes of milk, for real.
Just to keep prices high.

Increasing tariffs temporary as negotiating vehicle? Not with that they say in Russia principal - they impose sanctions on us, we will bomb Voronezh.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #23
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Skiff, you are on the money regarding all your comments on the automotive industry and European car preferences, I can confirm.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #24
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So to all you folks living in the States......

Where do you draw the line?

B2 (;->
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Old 5 Days Ago   #25
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Huss,

I am reading the thread. I see what it has become already. Wow! ;-)

Most replies have had nothing to do with tariffs on film, but attacks on protectionism, free trade, Trump, China, and so on.

If the discussion thread had stuck to film then I would be okay with the topic, but it hasn't. The topic will get high-jacked and turn into a verbal slinging match about how stupid Trump is or China pillages US intellectual properties and so forth.

I see enough of this one the news that I don't want it on a photographic forum I love.

Maiku
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Old 5 Days Ago   #26
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Yeah, as Maiku mentioned, can we talk about film? I'm honestly wondering how this will effect film prices/supplies etc.

Also... my digital Nikon gear looks like it's made in China. Soooooo... even for those who don't shoot film, it looks like this stuff will take a hit.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #27
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I took my '69 brand new Olds Cultlass to Panama' in 1969. A Panamanian I went to school with had the same car only he bought it in Panama'. He had to pay more than double because of Panamanian tariffs. When I bought a new car in Oregon (which I was a resident) and moved to California I had to pay a 8% use tax on it.

To buy a Chevy in Germany they have to pay a 10% EU tax plus a 19% tariff. When you buy a BMW in the US the tariff is 2.5%.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #28
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Protectionism is not a good ideal. Just take a look to history. Really hoping I'm wrong but it may happen to my country as well (Mexico).

Protectionism is not a good ideal, being competitive is. Offering better products will get you a better market share. Protectionism closes your frontiers and force you to buy locally, not because you want to or because you prefer the quality but because you have no other option. Because they have a secure market, companies don't have an incentive to innovate, so their products lacks on quality.

They give mediocre products to their customers. This lead the customer to prefer imported,good quality products, which are expensive, hurt their economy but give them the products they want. So lets see:

a) You end with mediocre products that aren't competitive on a global scale.
b) People's economy got hurt.
c) You still buy imported products.

I'm not making this up. My country (Mexico) is just getting out from a similar schema that we suffered back on the 20th century. It took years to recover. Because of protectionism, Mexican products where pretty mediocre so I would rather expend more to get better products from USA or other countries than to buy local.

Im fortunate because I live on the border with USA, so I had the option to cross the border to buy products on USA. Most of the country didnt had that options and ended with mediocre, expensive products and a mediocre noncompetitive industry.


Sorry for the rant, but it seems kinda sad when you see people making the same mistake that we did on the past. Getting my coffee now.

Best regards

Marcelo
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Old 5 Days Ago   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Yeah, as Maiku mentioned, can we talk about film?
I've talked about film!
See my post above. I've answered your questions.
If these actions are limited to China, most of us film shooters will probably remain unaffected.
Eastman Kodak, Lucky, Shanghai, Lomo will probably be negatively affected.

If the US gov. extend these actions to Japan and Europe, we al will have a very big problem!

Cheers, Jan
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Old 5 Days Ago   #30
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Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
In the long run we'll be much better off.
I'm not super up to speed but it's my understanding that the proposed tariffs could kill the Canadian dairy industry.

If so, who will be better off again?

Personally I avoid US meat and US dairy. That **** is so pumped up with hormones I'd grow a third tit.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #31
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Aside from the tariff and political stuff, what you people recommend?

a) Stock up film like there is not tomorrow.
b) Wait till everything settle ups.



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Old 5 Days Ago   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maiku View Post
Huss,

I am reading the thread. I see what it has become already. Wow! ;-)

Most replies have had nothing to do with tariffs on film, but attacks on protectionism, free trade, Trump, China, and so on.

If the discussion thread had stuck to film then I would be okay with the topic, but it hasn't. The topic will get high-jacked and turn into a verbal slinging match about how stupid Trump is or China pillages US intellectual properties and so forth.

I see enough of this one the news that I don't want it on a photographic forum I love.

Maiku
The trick is to let everyone have an opinion, without getting all emotional and fight or flighty, if one's opinion differs than your own.

We have had too many divide and conquer social engineering memes foisted on humanity and with too many buzz words placed in our lexicon.

Getting back to the OP topic, Analog photo materials have been for awhile niche products with less and less producers staying in the field. And prices follow the law of supply and demand and general profiteering, tariffs or no tariffs. We cannot hop on a time machine and go back to the 1960s to our fave mom and pop photo store to pick up some Panatomic X in 620 or some Agfa Portriga or Brovira paper.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #33
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Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post

To buy a Chevy in Germany they have to pay a 10% EU tax plus a 19% tariff. When you buy a BMW in the US the tariff is 2.5%.
The sum is correct, but it's 10% tariff, and 19% sales tax which we also have to pay on European made products.

As a European, I do indeed wonder how we want to justify these tariffs in front of the rest of the world. Preaching water and drinking wine. You do know about the "Chicken Tax", yes? It's a 25 % (!!) tariff on light trucks. Anyway a trade war knows only losers.

Regarding film, sucks for you Americans. I hope the EU doesn't retaliate in kind because I want to keep using Kodak films as well, but I have choices.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #34
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Yes, the cost of the film will rise for Americans, but to offset the losses in the States will film producers increase prices in Canada, England, Japan and so on to ensure a steady return?

It is a concern for me because I live in Canada. I pay stupid high prices for film. I think the last time I looked at a roll of T-Max 400 was $10 a roll at the local photo store. I have a hard buying at that price. If it jumps 20% to hell with film, strictly digital.

So, as you can see the knock-on effect of US tariffs on film may not just don't hit American photographers but the entire world because a new pricing strategy will need to be created to ensure profit margins are met to cover fixed costs and increased variable costs per unit for film production.

The film is only a minuscule percentage of items hit by tariffs, but it will have a knock-on effect on manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers and consumers. Film manufacturers, film supply wholesalers and retailers will be hard his by photographers not buying film, chemicals, papers and so on.

Anyway, for American photographers tariffs on film is not good because the tariff reduces their purchasing power and real income.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
This is just a way to bring countries to the table to negotiate unfare trade practices. It's only temporary. Other countries have been killing our industry for years through one sided trade practices. For example China has been dumping steel in the US below the cost of production which has helped destroy the US steel industry. China also imposes a 25% tariff on US cars and Canada imposes a nearly 300% tariff on US dairy. Europe does similar but they scream when we impose similar duties.

Another concern is intellectual property and technology theft. Even I have been a victim of intellectual property theft by China. Several of my copyrighted photographs have been used without consent on T shirts that were sold on Amazon.

The US has to get control of this and this is the way to get them to the table.

Relax, it won't last forever. Other countries export to the US many times what we export to them so sooner than later they're going to have to rebalance tariffs.

In the long run we'll be much better off.

Agreed …..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #36
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Old 5 Days Ago   #37
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Lets keep this discussion about film!
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Old 5 Days Ago   #38
HHPhoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
To buy a Chevy in Germany they have to pay a 10% EU tax plus a 19% tariff. When you buy a BMW in the US the tariff is 2.5%. Trump is right eliminate all tariffs and subsidies.
Sorry, but both is not correct:
Tax for cars (and almost all other products = VAT) here in Germany is 19%.
We have to pay that always, no matter if we buy a German or an American car.
Without any tariff for US cars really nothing would change here: No more demand for US cars. As other forum members have already said (and they are spot on): No one here in Germany or Europe wants to buy American cars, because they are crap (at least they are considered as such).

Cheers, Jan
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Old 5 Days Ago   #39
css9450
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And there we have it... The Koch brothers don't want us to be shooting film.
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Old 5 Days Ago   #40
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Originally Posted by css9450 View Post
And there we have it... The Koch brothers don't want us to be shooting film.
Neither have I written nor have I meant that.
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