Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Classic Film RangeFinders & Other Classics > Large Format Film RF

Large Format Film RF Forum for Large Format Rangefinders (generally 4x5 or larger format) iIncluding Linhof 4x5, Graflex 4x5, and other Large Format Rangefinders.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Ross London CdeV No. 2 Petzval Lens
Old 12-17-2018   #1
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
Ross London CdeV No. 2 Petzval Lens

Hi All,

I just won this old brass Petzval lens. At $135 plus shipping I think I did very well. I'm very good at finding flanges and I have several local sources in my town. I believe from my internet perusing it is a Ross London CdeV No. 2 or something closely similar. The cell diameter is approx 2.25" and overall length 5.25".

Ross Lens 1 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Ross Lens 3 by Nokton48, on Flickr

My intention is is to use this lens on my 4x5" Sinar Normas and 9x9cm Plaubel Makiflex cameras. Yes it needs a good clean but it is 200 years old

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-LARGE-...rdt=true&rt=nc

Your thoughts?
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #2
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
 
xayraa33's Avatar
 
xayraa33 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,874
Very nice !

Ross, like Dallmayer, was a top shelf British lens maker, on par with the ritzy French optical houses like Darlot and Derogy.
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #3
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
I think it might be a "magic lantern" lens as it does not have a slot for waterhouse stops, that I can see. But it does seem to have an internal aperture disk, which I might remove.

I'm hoping this will work for moderate close ups, on larger format 9x9cm/9x12/4x5.

Speed should be about F3.0 without the internal disk.

It arrives from London on Dec 24th!
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #4
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
 
xayraa33's Avatar
 
xayraa33 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokton48 View Post
I think it might be a "magic lantern" lens as it does not have a slot for waterhouse stops, that I can see. But it does seem to have an internal aperture disk, which I might remove.

I'm hoping this will work for moderate close ups, on larger format 9x9cm/9x12/4x5.

Speed should be about F3.0 without the internal disk.

It arrives from London on Dec 24th!
The full bore aperture should give you the beautiful Petzval swirlies with that 3D bokeh of 19th century wet plate portraits taken outside .
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #5
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
THAT is exactly what I am after.

I'm going to shoot J Lane Dry Plates, as well as modern sheet film.
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #6
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
 
xayraa33's Avatar
 
xayraa33 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokton48 View Post
THAT is exactly what I am after.
That is an excellent endeavour !

I always liked the photographic works of Robert Howlett and Roger Fenton and John Thomson and Felice Beato for that style of photography.
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #7
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
I'll have to explore those artists. I've had a lot of fun running down this lens on the internet and reading everything I can find on the Petzvals. I have a LOT!! of large format lenses of all kinds, but nothing like this.
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #8
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
Here is an article from 1871 that claims that Ross lenses are absolutely the world's finest.
http://antiquecameras.net/rosslenses.html
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #9
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
 
xayraa33's Avatar
 
xayraa33 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokton48 View Post
I'll have to explore those artists. I've had a lot of fun running down this lens on the internet and reading everything I can find on the Petzvals. I have a LOT!! of large format lenses of all kinds, but nothing like this.
The Petzval was king of the hill in 19th century Daguerreotype, Calotype and wet collodion photography for a fast lens to make portraits possible with photographic mediums with an ISO of 2 or less, until the Rapid Rectilinear (aka Aplanat ) design showed up around 1866. But the Petzval lens still rendered more flattering for portraits in my opinion.
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #10
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
Geoff Makiflex Dallmeyer Long 1B 4x5 Fompan by Nokton48, on Flickr

This is about what I want to achieve. 9x9cm Plaubel Makiflex, Dallmeyer 1B (long) Fomapan 4x5 film.

Geoff with Makiflex by Nokton48, on Flickr

And here is my Makiflex Bud Geoff, with his Makiflex and Dallmeyer 1B long. He has six Makiflexes, and over two thousand LF lenses. I thought I hada lot
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #11
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
 
xayraa33's Avatar
 
xayraa33 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokton48 View Post
Here is an article from 1871 that claims that Ross lenses are absolutely the world's finest.
http://antiquecameras.net/rosslenses.html
I have no doubt that Ross was one of the highly regarded opticians in Britain and the world.

The mid 19th century rivalry in practical optics for photography was between the posh British and French optical firms, more so than the German/Austrian firms like Voigtlander which was one of the first to use (or abuse) Joseph Petzval's breakthrough lens design and the Hungarian Joseph Petzval got very little financial remuneration for his ingenuity of optical design and was ripped off by many optical firms, including Voigtlander .
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #12
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
 
xayraa33's Avatar
 
xayraa33 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokton48 View Post
Geoff Makiflex Dallmeyer Long 1B 4x5 Fompan by Nokton48, on Flickr

This is about what I want to achieve. 9x9cm Plaubel Makiflex, Dallmeyer 1B (long) Fomapan 4x5 film.

Geoff with Makiflex by Nokton48, on Flickr

And here is my Makiflex Bud Geoff, with his Makiflex and Dallmeyer 1B long. He has six Makiflexes, and over two thousand LF lenses. I thought I hada lot
Very nice portraits !

I love the OOF backgrounds, it really adds a lot to the feel of the photographs.

Mathew Brady and his team of roving photographers captured many on field portraits like that during the American Civil war. A famous photo depicting that Petzval effect is of President Lincoln with Allan Pinkerton outside a tent .

https://unwritten-record.blogs.archi...onal-archives/
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #13
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
Short Petzvals are prized and very pricey. I eyeballed this lens and I'm thinking it will give me about as above. ^^

Glass looks good and the lacquer is still intact. Dimensions about right and all I need is a flange.
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #14
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by xayraa33 View Post
I have no doubt that Ross was one of the highly regarded opticians in Britain and the world.

The mid 19th century rivalry in practical optics for photography was between the posh British and French optical firms, more so than the German/Austrian firms like Voigtlander which was one of the first to use (or abuse) Joseph Petzval's breakthrough lens design and the Hungarian Joseph Petzval got very little financial rumination for his ingenuity of optical design and was ripped off by many optical firms, including Voigtlander .
Thank you for this.
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #15
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,816
Ross trained Dallmeyer....he married his daughter. That's how Dallmeyer got his start, from Ross.

I very seriously doubt it's a magic lantern/projector lens. Ross didn't make those that early (I can tell it's early by several features). What is the serial number, and it is engraved "Rofs" or "Ross"? The former, with serial numbers under 4 digits, were before the Waterhouse stop era, but were also way before the projector era, and assuredly a photographic lens. I have a few of them, they're usually very nice. The problem with a Petzval is it have a very narrow angle of view, about 35 degrees. So to get one to cover your 4x5, it would often have to be so big it won't fit on a lensboard....unless slower than the average of F3.6, which they seldom were in the first 20 years. Basically, it can be a paradox to get one to fit a lens board, yet cover 4x5 without vignetting (making a circular image in the middle of your plate). Until you get to the very big cameras, with very big lensboards...

Here are two of my early Ross lenses, one 1840s, one 1850s.

  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #16
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
 
xayraa33's Avatar
 
xayraa33 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by goamules View Post
Ross trained Dallmeyer....he married his daughter. That's how Dallmeyer got his start, from Ross.

I very seriously doubt it's a magic lantern/projector lens. Ross didn't make those that early (I can tell it's early by several features). What is the serial number, and it is engraved "Rofs" or "Ross"? The former, with serial numbers under 4 digits, were before the Waterhouse stop era, but were also way before the projector era, and assuredly a photographic lens. I have a few of them, they're usually very nice. The problem with a Petzval is it have a very narrow angle of view, about 35 degrees. So to get one to cover your 4x5, it would often have to be so big it won't fit on a lensboard....unless slower than the average of F3.6, which they seldom were in the first 20 years. Basically, it can be a paradox to get one to fit a lens board, yet cover 4x5 without vignetting (making a circular image in the middle of your plate). Until you get to the very big cameras, with very big lensboards...

Here are two of my early Ross lenses, one 1840s, one 1850s.
Very nice collection.

Yes, I remember reading about the early Petzval lenses having no Waterhouse stops , as they where introduced in 1858 and the Petzval lens was introduced in 1840.
__________________
My Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-17-2018   #17
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
More interesting reading. Thank You Goamules. I am curious, what features make you think it's an early Petzval? If it has no markings, would it still likely be a Ross, or made by someone else? I'll look for markings when I get it.

Regarding the narrow angle of coverage, perhaps I should go back to my first idea, which is attaching this to the makiflexes, which are 9x9cm (or 6.5x9cm) rather than 4x5.

With fast film I should be able to work hand held which would be fun and different for me with Makiflex. Of course I would need a tripod with the J Lane dry plates (only ASA 2). More times than not I work with a tripod.


Ross Lens 3 by Nokton48, on Flickr

One more question, what do you think about the lens having a built in central stop? Should I consider removing this to increase the relative speed? Or would it likely be F3.5 as it is? Or is it always going to be a slow Petzval? Actually I was hoping for F3.0
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-18-2018   #18
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
Dallmeyer 1B Long 1 by Nokton48, on Flickr


Here's a Dallmeyer 1B (long) in fantastic condition. This one sold years ago for $399 (I'd prolly have bought it!)
Does it look this way because the lacquer has been removed and it has been polished?

My Ross seems similar in overall dimensions and design. Hopefully it will perform as well as the Dallmeyer.
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-18-2018   #19
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,816
Hi Nokton,
I should have asked to see the engraving. If there is not anything engraved, it's not a Ross. They always proudly marked their lenses, all of the early Petzval makers did. I had a hunch it may not have been a Ross, the way the elements screwed in didn't look right. Also, the lacquer is more yellow/orange, which is how later Darlots are. As is the knob mount, but not the knob itself. I'd be interested to hear what it is, when you get it. The deep hood is characteristic of early lenses, pre Dallmeyer era.

As you may know, the french makers typically wrote on the side of the lens glass. You can see it looking at an angle, or gently remove the glass (to confirm the rear is configured right, you need to do that). Typically French makers that usually mark the glass are Jamin, Darlot, and Hermagis. Lerebours and Derogy sometimes did, but not always.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-18-2018   #20
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,816
If you go over to the Large Format forum, you will learn a lot more about the Petzvals (I think I saw you there though)
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-18-2018   #21
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by goamules View Post
Hi Nokton,
I should have asked to see the engraving. If there is not anything engraved, it's not a Ross. They always proudly marked their lenses, all of the early Petzval makers did. I had a hunch it may not have been a Ross, the way the elements screwed in didn't look right. Also, the lacquer is more yellow/orange, which is how later Darlots are. As is the knob mount, but not the knob itself. I'd be interested to hear what it is, when you get it. The deep hood is characteristic of early lenses, pre Dallmeyer era.

As you may know, the french makers typically wrote on the side of the lens glass. You can see it looking at an angle, or gently remove the glass (to confirm the rear is configured right, you need to do that). Typically French makers that usually mark the glass are Jamin, Darlot, and Hermagis. Lerebours and Derogy sometimes did, but not always.
Goamules,

Thanks for that! I guess it is prolly French, and really I'm OK with that. It's not going in a camera display, I want to use it on the Makiflexes. So if it covers 9x9cm (more or less) and has swirly Petzval bokeh, and is sharp in the center, I will be quite pleased. I arrives from London on Dec 24th Merry Christmas to me.

I do want a high speed lens, Steven Tribe suggested knocking out the fixed aperture disc (I think that is what that is inside the lens) to gain additional speed.

Do you think this would work to increase the speed of the lens? F3.0 or F3.5 would be great! Of course I will clean it up first and check for identification clues.
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-30-2018   #22
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
New Petzval Lens on Std Makiflex by Nokton48, on Flickr

OK It's here! Viewing through it, I absolutely love it! Surprisingly sharp on the glass. Shown on Makiflex Standard Body, lens focused on infinity target. I am so glad I took a chance on getting this one.

Later today, I removed the glass elements, nothing is marked anywhere. The central stop looks like it's much later to me, and rather homemade. Made of silver metal and coated with candle soot. I removed that rather easily from inside the barrel, and now I should have an F3.0 or F3.5 lens. Without the central stop, the lens is sharp in the center, and rather swirly at the edges as I have seen in so many Petzval examples.

Now I need to find a proper flange and clean it a bit more. I am super pleased.


Unmarked Petzval Sinar Norma Board by Nokton48, on Flickr

Here is the unmarked Petzval attached to a Sinar Norma Board, using a copious amount of Gorilla Tape. So now I can mount it on my 8x10" Norma, 5x7" Norma, and 4x5" Normas. It will be interesting to determine it's actual true focal length and to examine the full image circle.


DSC05763 by Nokton48, on Flickr

This is what I will use to examine the image circle of the Petzval. Seriously doubt it covers 8x10!
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2019   #23
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
Been outside with 8x10 Norma. Focused at infinity, the mystery Petzval lens has about an 8" image circle. I can clearly see the edges of the circle (extremely swirly). Dead razor sharp in the center. Measured focal length 180mm-190mm range depending on where the lens' nodal point actually is. So quite useful focal length for my potential many uses.

Bright image on the groundglass! And I do think it is prolly a convertible Petzval, because the front and rear cells can interchange.

Comments Welcome!

-Dan
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-04-2019   #24
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
I feel very good about this new purchase. I really do think this one is super cool.

I have had no luck getting a flange from Midwest Photo, I stopped in and JimmyA tells me he sold all his stash of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of flanges and unbelievable stash of LF lens parts. What a bummer. An incredible resource in now GONE. On the other hand, he told me who bought all the goodies and I do stay in contact with this person..............

But, I have contacted an old friend, who collects old brass lenses. We are meeting Sunday and he is bringing a baggie of flanges that are close to 79.5mm, which is what I need. Jimmy A measured it for me with digital calipers, it's 79.5mm. Flanges are difficult, my collector friend says they were sometimes one-off specific to a given lens. BTW he says he just made a giant brass lens purchase, that nearly doubled his collection of brass lenses. And believe he has a MAJOR collection. So a great time to hook up with him and have lunch

I'm now in retirement mode (four days now) and soon I will get going with all these projects. Got a honey do list to work through but I am getting there!

I know I am going to enjoy using this Petzval. I have no regrets. And there are many ways to mount a lens to a board, when you don't have a flange. We will see on Sunday when I meet with my friend.

Life is good
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-04-2019   #25
johannielscom
Ich bin ein Barnacker
 
johannielscom's Avatar
 
johannielscom is offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Universitas Terre Threntiae
Posts: 7,368
I had a huge portion of dumb luck finding a flange for my similar-looking lens...

https://www.johanniels.com/en/large-.../139-coopercam

Nice lens and Makiflex, Dan!
__________________
Gegroet,
Johan Niels

I write vintage gear reviews on www.johanniels.com |

flickr | instagram |
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-04-2019   #26
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338
Thanks Johann! Cool project you have there!


Light Duty Petzval Mounting Plaubel Board by Nokton48, on Flickr

I found this Plaubel board, which very tightly friction fits the main tube of the Petzval. (Had to remove the rear cell group). Screw the rear group back in, and I'm in business. This will do while I investigate options for a flange.
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-10-2019   #27
Nokton48
Registered User
 
Nokton48's Avatar
 
Nokton48 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,338

Magic Lantern 1 by Nokton48, on Flickr


Magic Lantern 2 by Nokton48, on Flickr


Light Duty Petzval Mounting Plaubel Board by Nokton48, on Flickr

Sure looks like this one! Magic Lantern lens. Notice the GAS PIPES for connection of projector. :/

My brass lens collecting friend concurs. But Hey, makes a GREAT camera lens! Lots of primitive character! Still running down a mounting flange, getting closer..........

8" or so F3.5 Petzval. Hard to find. The camera collecting group admires its condition.
__________________
“The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
― Mark Twain
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:16.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.