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Old 12-12-2019   #961
Vincent
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Hello Applet


I was thinking the same , but MC is just several differents single coatings ... I have some optical notions , but I'm certainly not a coating expert . I assume if the process , the materials used to coat are the same , the plus and the minus will be the same . We have to respect them to try replicate the original as close as possible . Imagine if they modify something , even with the best intentions , some purists will send stones at them . Of course they are listening to suggestions , but I think that beside some options ( MC , brass finish , engravings ) they don't want to go too far from the original . They could tell it themselves , but we could also just choose by ourselves . Nothing aggressive here , it's just that they have to handle a production with minimal quantity to propose an incredible price in the end !
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Old 12-12-2019   #962
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I have a modern multicoated 35/2 ZM and a single coated Summicron V1 35/2 so I chose a SC replica here. I want a true clone.
It is interesting that some people here find the CV 35/1.4 as excellent while others could not accept the distortion observed by them. Does this imply poor quality control or different views on same lens?

I agree with the positive views on the CV 50/1.5.
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Old 12-12-2019   #963
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Well, about the Nokton 35 different optinions... I think this lens has been plagued by some well known reviewers that indicate an innacceptable amount of distortion.

I measured the values on many samples of the v1 nokton 1.4 and, yes it has distortion. The other thing I noticed is that in real life picture, you only ever see this actual distortion once in a while.

Another thing I noticed is that this lens is as good at f4 as the 35 f2 king of bokeh lens, sharpness wise and bokeh wise. I don't remember where, but I think Tom Abrahamsson compared this Nokton with the pre asph summilux. The Nokton appeared to be better wide open

Now, Voigtlander actually made a v2 of this Nokton. They corrected the field of focus flatness a lot. And surprising thing too, they corrected distortion by 30% too. (from 3% to 2%)

To me, it is honnestly an excellent lens. And it actually is good that some people here can't stand these little drawbacks as it helps keeping its prices low
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Old 12-12-2019   #964
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Regarding the 7Artisans lenses, I've read a few times that they do not ship properly calibrated and that you have to do it yourself. My understanding is that this is not the case for this lens. I don't have a digital camera, so this really is not acceptable for me.
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Old 12-12-2019   #965
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Originally Posted by vincentbihler View Post
Another thing I noticed is that this lens is as good at f4 as the 35 f2 king of bokeh lens, sharpness wise and bokeh wise.
Unfortunately, no one shoots the king of bokeh at f/4 for bokeh.
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Old 12-12-2019   #966
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I tend to agree with Vincent on the 35 Nokton rep. It is wonderful, in my view technically measuring this lens is a mistake. It is the flaws wide open that make it fun and special. It provides very high quality imagery that mimics old designs for black and white film. Stop it down slightly and it behaves very well. I would not choose it for landscapes or technical work but for street shots and fun up close wide open it provides a beautifully odd view of the subject matter that I love. Old designs are “technically” inferior in almost every way to modern lens design and production. That is one of the primary reasons I love them. Old Leica glass has some of the most beautiful “flaws” of them all. If you want a technically perfect super fast 35mm piece of glass for your M at a reasonable price just buy a Zeiss ZM Distagon 35mm f1.4. That is a do it all, one and done piece of glass if you ask me. I am very excited about the 8E Cron and think it will sit nicely next to a 35mm f1.4 Nokton and 35mm f2.8 Biogon in actual use. I guess I am just a romantic sucker for the old designs.
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Old 12-12-2019   #967
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Mike Johnston said the king of bokeh was good at middle apertures at moderate distances. Lenses in the normal to mild wide angle range (35-50mm) often have harsh bokeh wide open and closeup, so you should stop down a couple times to get a softer look. This is where the roundness of the aperture becomes important, and I’m impressed that the maker of this “replica” has improved on the original in this regard!
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Josh's "Great Post" :)
Old 12-12-2019   #968
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Josh's "Great Post" :)



The 35mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the V1 35mm 8-element Cron design. The design has been slightly stretched to extend it to open up to 1.4. (great single coated and a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)

I have one but not the other, so I should be fine here.
I used the Nokton as a loaner by several RFF members, so I tried out the SC version and the MC version. Both were fine.


The 40mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the 35mm f1.4 Lux pre-asph design. Again, the design has been slightly manipulated to adjust focal length and maximum aperture. (a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)

4. I have one but not the other

So far, I am doing well: 2 out of 2 correct


The 50mm f1.1 Nokton is a direct design copy of the Noctilux 1.0.
(poorly executed in my opinion and does not do the design justice)

I have one but not the other again!
I do not own a Noctilux, obviously.


The 50mm f1.5 Nokton is a direct design copy of the original 50mm f1.2 Noctilux including the special rear element.
(Probably Voigts best of its copies and caries the reputation to prove it)

I have the Nokton 50/1.5 and I love using this lens. It is not a sbig and heavy as the Nokton 50/1.1 or &Artisans 50/1.1.


The 75mm f1.8 Heliar is a direct copy of the 7.3cm f1.9 hektor as I think another member mentioned earlier in this thread.
(this is an excellent lens!)


I skipped the Heliar as I own a Summilux 75/1.4. [Josh: you have seen this lens]


[b][i][color="cyan"]There are many imitators out there but none of them seem to be able to capture the balance of flavors (specifically colors and contrast or lack there of) that Leica provides. At least in the fast lens category.

This is similar to what ex-CEO of Leica, Oliver Kaltner texted me.


What makers like Voigtlander have got right is their old style simple designs of smaller aperture lenses (specifically the 50mm f3.5 Heliar comes to mind). All of their Color Heliar and Skopar lenses will knock any photographers socks off. I mean they are absolutely stellar by any standard and have loads of character. They are also very well built and mostly in the old Leica lens ergonomic style.
The old triplets (specifically Tessar types like the Elmar) are easily recreated with today's tech in my opinion.


I agree with you, Josh. I got the first versions Heliar 50/2 and 50/3.5. Both lenses are excellent overall. The tiny 50/3.5 gets the edge here.


The fast 7Artisans glass seem to have an interesting offering but it is not in the style of Leica and is somewhat of an amalgam of 7A unique and wild style+Zeiss+Leica look heavily weighted in the Contax Sonnar glass types.

There is a reason why I got only the very first M lens by 7Artisans. I was curious. Then I stopped being curious.


Kevin,
Thank you for holding the front and connecting us to this unique project.
Happy holidays all.

Yes, of course. Kevin is doing a marvelous job here.

Happy Holidays to all. May you get additional happiness, prosperity and good health.
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Old 12-12-2019   #969
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The 35mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the V1 35mm 8-element Cron design. The design has been slightly stretched to extend it to open up to 1.4. (great single coated and a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)
If this is indeed the case, 'stretching' the design to 1.4 has introduced quite a lot of distortion compared to the 8 element, which has virtually none. And at wider apertures it's not sharp like the original, either, which has excellent resolution from f/2, if slightly lower contrast wide-open. The Nokton doesn't really get sharp until it's stopped down quite a bit. Not sure about the version II, I have never tried or owned that one.

Looking forward to this replica, if it truly mimics Summicron performance it will be a winner.
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Old 12-12-2019   #970
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Let's challenge these lens makers a bit more. To me, the winner will be the one that can produce a compact 35mm f1.4, classic design, with great gentle signature, 0 distortion, 0.7 minimum focus distance, no focus shift, flat focusing plane, sharp wide open, for cheap ! I can imagine it was hard to do so in the 70s, but today with CAD softwares like ZeMax and CNC grinding for optics, it shouldn't be a problem. What are you doing China ?!
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Old 12-12-2019   #971
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Raid,
Thanks for the user experience and comments on my post. I think few people have had as many interesting lenses (jewels) in their hands and compared their various characteristics as you have. Your thoughts have helped me with my Leica sickness over the years.

That 75mm LUX you showed me is truly amazing! I would take it and the 50 f1.0 Noct over any modern design or just about ANY other lens for that matter....it is nice to want.

I am very excited to see some testing results from a decent photographer (hopefully Kevin) with an actual 50 f1.2 Noct replica wide open at moderate distances (8-20 ft from subject daytime and night). There is a serious lack of online content that displays the diversity of character with this lens so it is a bit of a phantom to me at this point. Honestly I could care less about seeing shots of charts, graphs, 100% mag sharpness views, etc...I want to see real world results of what the character/color is like used at its intended application(s) compared to the original.
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Old 12-12-2019   #972
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Many users of exotic lenses do not use them. They are stored safely.
I will ask Kevin to test a replica lens one day. I think that at one time I was sent over 20 50mm lenses and over 30 35mm lenses by RFF members. It was challenging to do with film cameras. The Canon 50/0.95 came to me with matching camera! I think I had a Noctilux 50/1. The Nikkor 50/1.1 was cool to try out.
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Old 12-12-2019   #973
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I wouldn’t describe the 7Artisan lens as not properly calibrated when it comes out of the factory but rather as one that allows the user to fine tune the calibration. I remember reading elsewhere that the Cosina Zeiss 50mm f1.5 Sonnar design has a focus shift when wide open. 7Artisan just allows the user to adjust it to their liking rather than sending it back to the factory. Unfortunately, it was not marketed thusly.
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Old 12-12-2019   #974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jshcrlsn View Post
Some thoughts from a youngish (not rich) guy:

I have been following along quietly so far and want to weigh in a bit here.

First:
I have read some confusing comments about lens design comparisons and mimicry here from some of the big makers in the style of Leica (Voigtlander) and would like to clear that up.

The 35mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the V1 35mm 8-element Cron design. The design has been slightly stretched to extend it to open up to 1.4. (great single coated and a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)

The 40mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the 35mm f1.4 Lux pre-asph design. Again, the design has been slightly manipulated to adjust focal length and maximum aperture. (a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)

The 50mm f1.1 Nokton is a direct design copy of the Noctilux 1.0.
(poorly executed in my opinion and does not do the design justice)

The 50mm f1.5 Nokton is a direct design copy of the original 50mm f1.2 Noctilux including the special rear element.
(Probably Voigts best of its copies and caries the reputation to prove it)

The 75mm f1.8 Heliar is a direct copy of the 7.3cm f1.9 hektor as I think another member mentioned earlier in this thread.
(this is an excellent lens!)

There are others of coarse but I wanted to speak specifically about these because a lot of discussion here seems to be centered around interest in these rare old style fast lenses at these focal lengths ranges.

I have a vested interest in what this creator is doing and based on what I have seen from Kevin's "really nice" tests I will be putting my money and support into this project. It seems that just maybe this team of builders are close to capturing the "soul" that Leica has imbued into their older fast glass. There are many imitators out there but none of them seem to be able to capture the balance of flavors (specifically colors and contrast or lack there of) that Leica provides. At least in the fast lens category.

When I look at Voiglander I see that their fast lenses of old style design are often over extended a bit, vignette a lot, and do not have the color (and sometimes OOF) characteristics of the Leica they imitate. For me this is a deal breaker for many of the the fast lenses they make. What makers like Voigtlander have got right is their old style simple designs of smaller aperture lenses (specifically the 50mm f3.5 Heliar comes to mind). All of their Color Heliar and Skopar lenses will knock any photographers socks off. I mean they are absolutely stellar by any standard and have loads of character. They are also very well built and mostly in the old Leica lens ergonomic style.
The old triplets (specifically Tessar types like the Elmar) are easily recreated with today's tech in my opinion.

The fast 7Artisans glass seem to have an interesting offering but it is not in the style of Leica and is somewhat of an amalgam of 7A unique and wild style+Zeiss+Leica look heavily weighted in the Contax Sonnar glass types.

I do not have the money to throw down on Leica fast and/or collectible glass. The point I am trying to make is that we should really take the time to provide valuable feedback to Kevin and the engineers and workers at LLL. We should consider what has already been done and done well, what is available to us at a reasonable price on the current market vs what is realistically out of reach for most and what makes the most sense to knock out first. Who knows how far these guys will be able to take this project. It seems that they value the feedback coming from this forum and so while the iron is hot lets make sure we provide them with concise and valuable information.

My vote goes straight to the big ones: Following the 8E Cron and V1 Noct I think its should be the 50mm F1.0 Noct and the 75mm f1.4 Lux. Then the Pre-Aspherical 35 Lux all in M-Mount. These are the pride of Leica so why wouldn't we go straight there before hitting all the weird ones. I am also in agreement with replicating any of the ELCAN lenses as well. That just makes sense to me...The 90mm F1 ELCAN would be the coolest thing I can dream up.

Kevin,
Thank you for holding the front and connecting us to this unique project...I am sure its a bit messy for you at the moment. I am very excited to try my 8E Cron with the hopes that is has the 'soul" that has made me lust over Leica glass above all others for the past several years. If I had to throw out one critical stress point while making these clones it would be get the color pallet and contrast (micro contrast) ratio per design just right to the original...this is something most makers cannot do. I know you are overwhelmed here and I hope that our over exuberance and tedious requests with this project do not break you down in any way.

Happy holidays all

Hi Joshua,

I really appreciate you take the time to write such a long and very supportive post. It means a lot to the Maker and me. That is one of the reasons why I choose RFF to share this project and let our forum members get the first chance to try out the 8-element replica. I am sure that the first batch is very special. You guys will know what I mean. We have many forum members like you who make the community here very friendly and positive.

If their first project is a success, I am sure there will be more exciting projects to come.

Thank you very much for your suggestions. I will also share your thought with the maker.

Best regards,
Kevin
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Old 12-12-2019   #975
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Hi Kevin, I have one more question before I fully make up my mind before the LTM version release.

Will the 35/2 Replica LTM version be given all considerations as the first batch?
Will I be given the option of personalised engraving, multi-coating, colour choice etc?
I do not intend on re-selling it of course, I'm more concerned of having something unique from the very beginning in my hands and enjoying that in my life.
Should I just buy the M version, or wait for the LTM version as it will be given the same considerations as the M? Will the LTM version cost a little more?

Hi Jose,

I just got the answer from the maker.

The LTM version 35/2 Replica will also offer three paint options, Black Paint/ Chrome/ Brass. It will also have two coating options, Single/ Multiple coating. The cost of the LTM version will always 20% higher than the standard M-mount version. In this case, the first batch of LTM will be selling at $599. It will also come with a free engraving service.

Kevin
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UPDATE: The first batch reservation will be closed in the middle of this month.
Old 12-12-2019   #976
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UPDATE: The first batch reservation will be closed in the middle of this month.

UPDATE:

The first batch reservation will be closed in the middle of this month.
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Old 12-12-2019   #977
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Hi Kevin,
When do you expect the prototype 50/1.2 to be made?
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Old 12-12-2019   #978
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Hi Kevin,
When do you expect the prototype 50/1.2 to be made?
Hi Raid, currently, they kind of put the Noctilux 50/1.2 project aside after they successfully replicate the special Leitz glass No.900.403. Because they are now mainly focused on fulfilling the 8-element replica orders, they will be producing the lenses for the local market first as many people start supporting the project two years ago. It is good as they could have enough time to optimize their manufacture process to achieve stable quality when they start to fulfill the International orders.

I will update more information here when the maker is making new progress on the Noctilux 50mm f1.2 AA replica project.

Kevin
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Old 12-12-2019   #979
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Hi Kevin. I can understand such a postponement. This project is very special and it deserves all the support here.
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Old 12-12-2019   #980
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Hi Jose,

I just got the answer from the maker.

The LTM version 35/2 Replica will also offer three paint options, Black Paint/ Chrome/ Brass. It will also have two coating options, Single/ Multiple coating. The cost of the LTM version will always 20% higher than the standard M-mount version. In this case, the first batch of LTM will be selling at $599. It will also come with a free engraving service.

Kevin
Very good, thanks for this
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Old 12-12-2019   #981
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Well, about the Nokton 35 different optinions... I think this lens has been plagued by some well known reviewers that indicate an innacceptable amount of distortion.

I measured the values on many samples of the v1 nokton 1.4 and, yes it has distortion. The other thing I noticed is that in real life picture, you only ever see this actual distortion once in a while.

...

To me, it is honnestly an excellent lens. And it actually is good that some people here can't stand these little drawbacks as it helps keeping its prices low
agreed with these comments, this is my only lens currently on m240 and haven't spotted distortion that would bother me (or any other regular photo viewer). haven't done any brick wall test shots though, and not plan to either.

as to OP's lens, hope the patents of original Leica lens have expired, so that this not again typical copyright violation from China.
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Old 12-12-2019   #982
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Patents and copyrights are quite different things, assuming the optical design of the 8 element was indeed patented, it would have long since expired
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Old 12-12-2019   #983
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Hi, Kevin, I had already filled the Google Form since December 11 and got an email saying they got my Google Form the same day. But after that nothing is happened. Is this normal?
My email is [email protected]
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Old 12-12-2019   #984
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Hi, Kevin, I had already filled the Google Form since December 11 and got an email saying they got my Google Form the same day. But after that nothing is happened. Is this normal?
My email is [email protected]

Yes, this is normal. The record shows you've successfully submitted the response. The maker will then process it and give the final quote. Then we will start to collect payment after that.
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Old 12-12-2019   #985
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Yes, this is normal. The record shows you've successfully submitted the response. The maker will then process it and give the final quote. Then we will start to collect payment after that.
Ok. Thank you for your response.
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Old 12-12-2019   #986
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UPDATE:

The first batch reservation will be closed in the middle of this month.
Do you have an exact date?
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Old 12-13-2019   #987
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Hello Kevin


I don't remember if it has already been asked , I would like to know something about the SBLOO replica : will you do it with the early stamped foot or the later ( and much nicer IMO ) machined foot ?
Thank you in advance


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Old 12-13-2019   #988
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Big thanks again for doing this Kevin
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Old 12-13-2019   #989
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Hi Kevin
Sorry for bothering you
When i filled & confirmed the Form i didn't get any confirmation mail.
Is my order confirmed or i have to do it again?
Thank You
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Old 12-13-2019   #990
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@ Kevin, one question for you, do you know if the 8elts replica will be compatible with the 12504 hood from Leitz ?

Thanks !
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Old 12-13-2019   #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jshcrlsn View Post

The 50mm f1.1 Nokton is a direct design copy of the Noctilux 1.0.
(poorly executed in my opinion and does not do the design justice)
Simply not true. The Nokton is based on the old Xenon design from Taylor, Taylor and Hobson and provides as such at full aperture an extremely sharp image without any distortion.

The Noctilux f/1 is an original Leitz design and delivers at full aperture a "painterly" image without any sharpness at all.

Leica M5, Nokton 50mm f/1.1 at f/1.1, 400-2TMY printed on AdoxMCC110.

Erik.

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Old 12-13-2019   #992
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Thank you for your input Erik.
How will the 50/1.2 do wide open?
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Old 12-13-2019   #993
Erik van Straten
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Thank you for your input Erik.
How will the 50/1.2 do wide open?

Images made with this lens are hard to find on the internet, but I have a book by Cartier-Bresson from 1969 - "Cartier-Bressons France" - with quite a lot of pictures made with the Noctilux 50mm f/1.2. These pictures are not very sharp. You recognise them instantly.


Here you see him with the lens:













Erik.
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Old 12-13-2019   #994
raid
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So it is a progression from 50/1.2 to 50/1 and then to 50/0.95 if sharpness wide open is the ultimate goal.

I have the Nokton 50/1.1.


Ken Rockwell said about the Nokton: A poor performer, introduced as a gimmick for the less critical."
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Old 12-13-2019   #995
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Thanks for the posted images, Erik.
Sharpness is not everything.
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Old 12-13-2019   #996
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Hi Kevin, I have sent you a PM regarding the pre-order. Hope you received it.
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Old 12-13-2019   #997
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I just ordered mine!
Chrome, single coated, 8E FLINT.
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Old 12-13-2019   #998
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Let's go back to the 35/2 replica. I placed my order for sure. Brass, SC, 8ELEMENTS, ...
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Old 12-13-2019   #999
KEVIN-XU 愛 forever
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Hi Kevin, I have sent you a PM regarding the pre-order. Hope you received it.

Hi, please send me an email to the following address:

[email protected]

My PM box on RFF is 100% full.

Kevin
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Old 12-13-2019   #1000
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Simply not true. The Nokton is based on the old Xenon design from Taylor, Taylor and Hobson and provides as such at full aperture an extremely sharp image without any distortion.

The Noctilux f/1 is an original Leitz design and delivers at full aperture a "painterly" image without any sharpness at all.
Thanks for the info and image Erik.
However, the lens design used for the Voigt Nokton f1.1 does in fact mimic the Noctilux f1 (which is original to Leica as you state) and not the Xenon. The 5cm f1.5 Xenon was the first version form of the Summarit 5cm f1.5 ltm and later the 50mm f1.5 M. This later went on to inspire the design for the first version 50mm Summilux early formula (very slightly different) and then the Nocti f1.0 which is also just slightly different in its second element group design. The execution of these designs varies between each lens and version giving each its own unique character.

I agree that they took the design in a different direction than Leica did. The Nocti does in fact carry that surrealistic painterly look I lust over while the Nokton does not. Maybe Voigt was trying to put it somewhere between a Nocti f1 and a Summilux in how it renders. I would like to see how that Nokton does at a portrait from about 10 feet away instead of an image at roughly infinity wide open.

Also, great post of Henri's 1.2 work thank you for that.
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