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Old 01-07-2020   #1201
Emile de Leon
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Thx for that Ed..clears things up a bit!
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Old 01-07-2020   #1202
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I wonder whether we should be talking T-stops, rather than f/ stops here.
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Old 01-07-2020   #1203
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Ed, can you make some pics with the lenses on a camera that is fixed on a tripod, so that both pictures are made from exactly the same point of view?

Now the snow pictures are a bit hard to compare.

Nevertheless: there is not much difference between the two lenses in your pictures. The prototype has slightly brighter colors.

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Old 01-07-2020   #1204
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Answer:


I am sorry to keep you guys guessing. But isn't it fun? Here is the answer to the color slide film comparison test.

The first set of pictures was taken by the original Leica 35mm f2 8-element + M7 combo, the second set of pictures was taken by the Replica 8-element 35mm f2 final retail version + MP combo.

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Old 01-07-2020   #1205
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And I am sorry to keep confusing you guys. Actually, the actual luminous flux of the replica 8-element 35 2 is slightly larger than the original one. This is what the maker deliberately made in manufacturing. The edge of each of the elements in the replica lens is slightly wider than the original one, which will prevent people from doing something that the maker doesn't want to happen.

The test people use the Leica MP + replica 8-element to take the first set of pictures, and he used the same exposure setting from MP on M7 + original 8-element combo. The shutter speed accuracy, lighting changes, the fact that the actual luminous flux of the replica 8-element 35 2 is slightly larger than the original one, etc. may all affect the final result in each of the photos.

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Old 01-07-2020   #1206
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I prefer the second image so am happy with this result!
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Old 01-07-2020   #1207
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the more photos posted; the more our eyes get trained. now it's easier for people to distinguished the replica.
it's correct that the shadow details of the replica is not on par with the original but i am still content with it, especially considering its cost.
can't wait to use mine once i got the lens in hands.
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Old 01-07-2020   #1208
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There were actually several sets of color photos where the original 8-element made darker shadows than the replica, despite the likelihood of some degree of haze....

Not sure what's going on!
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Old 01-07-2020   #1209
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DING DING DING! I win again!!!

Anyway, this is all great - the lens renders superbly. Can't wait to give it a go Kevin.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
which will prevent people from doing something that the maker doesn't want to happen.
Out of curiosity, can you share what this would be?
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Old 01-08-2020   #1211
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Out of curiosity, can you share what this would be?
Iím guessing that people may have tried to transfer the replica elements into an original housing (which would originally have elements with coating damage/fogging) to flip at a much higher price.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1212
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I am no optical scientist, but it seems likely that what I was calling T-stop differences between the lenses (actual light transmission versus the mathematical derivation of the "f/ stop") is what Kevin is referring to also, regardless of the cause. The replica lens simply transmits more light at what ever diaphragm opening, perhaps 1/2 stop more on average.

I might shoot a couple of additional pairs of images, tripod-mounted, between my prototype and the original, but attempting to balance the light reading on the sensor itself rather than just the f/stop. If I can do this, then the images should look really almost identical, I think.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcpr View Post
Iím guessing that people may have tried to transfer the replica elements into an original housing (which would originally have elements with coating damage/fogging) to flip at a much higher price.
Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1214
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Iím guessing that people may have tried to transfer the replica elements into an original housing (which would originally have elements with coating damage/fogging) to flip at a much higher price.
Your guess is right. The maker and I don't want to see that happen.

Kevin
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Old 01-08-2020   #1215
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Originally Posted by Ed Schwartzreic View Post
I am no optical scientist, but it seems likely that what I was calling T-stop differences between the lenses (actual light transmission versus the mathematical derivation of the "f/ stop") is what Kevin is referring to also, regardless of the cause. The replica lens simply transmits more light at what ever diaphragm opening, perhaps 1/2 stop more on average.

I might shoot a couple of additional pairs of images, tripod-mounted, between my prototype and the original, but attempting to balance the light reading on the sensor itself rather than just the f/stop. If I can do this, then the images should look really almost identical, I think.
Hi Ed, I am looking forward to see more of your tests.

Kevin
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Old 01-08-2020   #1216
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All three final retail versions are finished.

Black paint, chrome, brass.


All three Replica 35mm f2 final retail versions by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr
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Old 01-08-2020   #1217
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Well, I decided first to try another camera body with the 2 lenses, here a Sony A7r. There is an outdoor shot at f/4, and an indoor at f/5.6. There are still slight differences in exposure and color temperature, but I don't see much point in going further. I would be happy with the image from either lens, and, in any case, I would likely tweak color balance or whatever anyway if I were to use such images.

replica3 by woodswoman57, on Flickr

original3 by woodswoman57, on Flickr

replica4 by woodswoman57, on Flickr

original4 by woodswoman57, on Flickr
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Old 01-08-2020   #1218
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Wow, look great. Really I have been checking the thread at least hourly now to see when you will give us the good news about shipping date��
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Old 01-08-2020   #1219
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In these last two shots I find the original sharper, but with lower contrast. The replica is slightly less sharp (see the foot of the lamp), but has more contrast; the same I see in the landscape. The differences are very, very small, but I see them.


Erik.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1220
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As Eric has said; I mentioned somewhere above that my Cron shows amazing details when viewed with a large monitor. Summicrons in general are high resolution lenses.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1221
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Very excited about this lens and the process of learning about it. THANK YOU Kevin for all the updates. I'm looking forward to forking over my money

I'm also glad to hear about the thoughtful approach to the lens design, including the concerns about frankenlenses created from original lenses doctored with new glass elements.

What I also appreciated so far was Ed's reassurance that in-hand the lens feels solid and refined. To me that's key to a pleasant experience with the lens, it's not just about the optical performance.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
All three final retail versions are finished.

Black paint, chrome, brass.


All three Replica 35mm f2 final retail versions by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr
It is soooo nice! Please let us pay you now, enough waiting
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Old 01-08-2020   #1223
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OK...now for the fine print...
What is the warranty on this lens? What does it cover and the time..
Esp if decentered upon arrival..
Who does it go back to for a fix..?
Quote:

In these last two shots I find the original sharper, but with lower contrast.
Looks to me like maybe...the camera shook on the 2nd pic...as its pretty unsharp throughout..

More tests needed..esp close up and other ranges..and also magnification on the exact focus points in center/middle and corner of photo..
So we know as much as possible as to what this lens is capable of..

On a side note..
I wonder if the original 8 elements..are going to drop in price..
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Old 01-08-2020   #1224
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Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
All three final retail versions are finished.

Black paint, chrome, brass.


All three Replica 35mm f2 final retail versions by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr
oo err missus!

Looking spectacular. I can't wait!
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Old 01-08-2020   #1225
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"My brass lens" looks awesome!
As for the Summicron to drop in market value, I really doubt it. There is a demand for genuine Leica lenses. They are not getting more frequent; they are getting replicas.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1226
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It looks to me like the replica consistently has significantly warmer color tones, more vignette, and more contrast than the original. Sharpness comparison is up in the air at this point based on the mix of results posted in this thread so far.

Ed or Kevin,
Thank you for taking the time to shoot and post results from this project. It has been very helpful and exciting for us so far.

If you guys feel so inclined I would like to suggest a test as follows:

- M10 or M240 with auto white balance and ISO 400 or less with same lens profile selection or none at all
- timer or cable release for the snap to account for shake
- tripod mount
- bright ideal natural outdoor lighting not too early or late in the day (not too blue or orange) with a mix of shadow and lit areas but only well lit areas in all of the corners.
- at least two different depth of field photos (close range of a static object the size of a cat or a persons head/torso in the center and with a good distance between background and subject in focus and then also an infinity focus shot)
- One set of pics wide open and then another set at mid aperture like 5.6 or f8.

What has been posted so far is great...I just wanted to throw this out in case you guys are feeling extra fun here :] thank you again...very excited and they look beautifully made.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1227
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Hmm, original4 by Ed Schwartzreic is definitely sharper all around than replica4. Take a look at the detail in the lamp base and also in the lines of the measuring stick.

Sharpness at the edge of the frame is dramatically better for the original on the face of the wall-mounted clock.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1228
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I really could not see an easy way of looking at light transmission variables between the two lenses, so I decided to take pictures of a blank off-white wall, at f/8 so that vignetting would be minimal, and then look at brightness values from the EXIF. The wall was not brightly lit, so the BV are both negative.

In my particular shots, the replica (prototype) scored a BV of -1.241, and the original a BV of -1.651. This is in the direction that we all saw in the various test shots. Unless someone here has a better idea, or interprets this data differently, this would show that the light transmission is greater for the replica.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
All three final retail versions are finished.

Black paint, chrome, brass.


All three Replica 35mm f2 final retail versions by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr
Whow! All three look nice but the brass is stunning. Looks like I'm getting back into M's at just the right time. I think Tom A. up there in heaven is grinning down at us.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1230
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Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
All three final retail versions are finished.

Black paint, chrome, brass.


All three Replica 35mm f2 final retail versions by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr
Beautiful All 3 the chrome looks particularly authentic
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Old 01-08-2020   #1231
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I may send out my Summicron for a checking and cleaning if needed. I am dying to start using the replica lens, once I get it!
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Old 01-08-2020   #1232
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All three final retail versions are finished.

Black paint, chrome, brass.


All three Replica 35mm f2 final retail versions by Kevin-Xu, on Flickr
So glad I picked brass, the others look humdrum in comparison! Plus I already have boring black and chrome Leica lenses.

Itís going to look fantastic on the Lenny Kravitz Drifter Leica!
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Old 01-08-2020   #1233
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Semi-plagiarism warning!

So glad I picked the brass version. The other versions look "inferior" in comparison! I already have many black and chrome Leica lenses.

It’s going to look fantastic on the M3!
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Old 01-08-2020   #1234
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"I already have boring black and chrome Leica lenses." Huss

.....i'll pay the shipping...

adopt Leica
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Old 01-08-2020   #1235
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"I already have boring black and chrome Leica lenses." Huss

.....i'll pay the shipping...

adopt Leica
I already traded them for some magic beans.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1236
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"I already traded them for some magic beans." ....single origin, fair trade organic i hope?
....
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Old 01-08-2020   #1237
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Originally Posted by Ed Schwartzreic View Post
The replica lens simply transmits more light at what ever diaphragm opening, perhaps 1/2 stop more on average... I think.
I also think that too, Ed, and I said it too. It's improved, whether it be a thing of chance, or left over increments that The Maker saw with today's knowledge of modern optics - and he said, why not - I've got more room to push it further. And, why not? More light is just a good thing anyway.
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Old 01-08-2020   #1238
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Is the true aperture 2.8 for the old Summicron and is i 2.0 for the replica?
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Old 01-08-2020   #1239
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Semi-plagiarism warning!

So glad I picked the brass version. The other versions look "inferior" in comparison! I already have many black and chrome Leica lenses.

Itís going to look fantastic on the M3!
GASP!!! The brass one looks AWESOME!!!
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Old 01-08-2020   #1240
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Hmm, original4 by Ed Schwartzreic is definitely sharper all around than replica4. Take a look at the detail in the lamp base and also in the lines of the measuring stick.

Sharpness at the edge of the frame is dramatically better for the original on the face of the wall-mounted clock.

Indeed, I think there was camera movement, pretty clear if you look at the lettering on the multi-colored chocolates (?) at the bottom right. Maybe bad focus too. If the lens performed like that it would be sad, but I'm pretty certain that's not it.
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