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Old 02-11-2020   #1561
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I love some of the images that I have taken with my M9 and the 35/1.4 pre-asph. The colors come out looking pastel. I usually try using aperture 2.0 before 1.4 becomes a requirement. Once, Peter Karbe gave some of us a 75 minute lecture on Leica optics. He stressed that Leica lenses wer designed to always be used wide open.
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Old 02-11-2020   #1562
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I have the 35mm 1.4 pre & the 35mm 1.4 asph and the 35mm Summaron 3.5..
They all have their charms..
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Old 02-11-2020   #1563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I love some of the images that I have taken with my M9 and the 35/1.4 pre-asph. The colors come out looking pastel. I usually try using aperture 2.0 before 1.4 becomes a requirement. Once, Peter Karbe gave some of us a 75 minute lecture on Leica optics. He stressed that Leica lenses wer designed to always be used wide open.
I've got to imagine that Peter Karbe was referring to the lenses that he designed, not lenses from 40-50-60 years ago.
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Old 02-11-2020   #1564
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Not really, as he was giving us a tour through the history of Leica lenses and their designs. It was not just about his lenses, I recall. His talk was "Tradition and Innovation".
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Old 02-11-2020   #1565
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Quote:
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I have a pre-asph Summilux 35/1.4, and I find its performance challenging when used wide open, but I view it also as its charm. It is a special lens. I do not own an asph version of it, but from the posted images that I have seen, it is not what I prefer to use.
Agree on it being challenging, specially on b/w film. I fared better when using color/slide film. Charming lens nonetheless.

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Old 02-11-2020   #1566
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I heard / saw Peter Karbe's presentation also - not sure it was the same one that Raid attended - but it was how the various generations of lenses had improved sequentially on the excellence of the preceding generation. Karbe did make the point strongly that Leica lenses are meant to be used wide open, that one only needs to stop down for DOF or presumably exposure issues. He implied that this had been Leica's philosophy going back also.

I did not think to ask him "but what about the first generation 35/1.4?" Personally, I would consider that a special case. But of course it can be used wide open, especially if what one wants (which people expressly did when it was introduced) is reportage. Like I said in my review of the new 8-element, it is my impression that bokeh, the Nocti's behavior wide open, or here coma at f/1.4 were not what the lens designers back then cared about. They were making lenses for available light work as best they could.

And I recall fairly far back (?1970's) that Leitz was making a distinction about how their lenses could be used wide open, whereas the fast f-stops on other brands were more of a vanity / marketing issue.

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Old 02-11-2020   #1567
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After seeing his presentation, I started to use lenses wide open more often than I had been doing in past years. I got the 35/1.4 at the same time as the 75/1.4, and both lenses were my first Summilux lenses. I was happy.
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Old 02-11-2020   #1568
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Me too, Raid. I had been using the 50/2 Apo Aspheric and the (older) 180/3.4 Apo Telyt for making images of our local symphony orchestra, and started using them wide open. Or only 1 stop down for DOF. I was blown away by the results, as were some of my viewers.

So now this 8-element replica is almost upon us. I hope (and think it likely) that we can use this wide open as well with satisfaction. The image in the restaurant which is in my Viewfinder article was shot wide open, and I was most happy with that.

Ed
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Old 02-11-2020   #1569
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Leica has always been about the..wide open shot..
Nikon...not so..
I found that out back in the day..
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Old 02-11-2020   #1570
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I would mostly use 8~11 with Nikon or Canon SLR lenses in the years when I was using SLRs.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1571
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on behalf of my friend - Paze Ng:
As mentioned above, I choose a roll of Rollei RPX400 and process it in HC110 B. for 6.15 minutes at 20c, with yellow filter
Let’s discuss the style of Summicron 35/2 replica.
The first impression is the clear and clean image under small aperture, as it maintains proper contrast of brightness (the hood is not used).
Small apertures, ranging from F8 to F11, is capable to capture both fore- and back-ground details clearly, in addition to the principal subject.
Some old lens that fail to handle contrast of lighting correctly and challenge photographers’ understanding of light.
There is no need to worry about this by using Summicron 35/2 replica which makes photo-taking an relaxing experience,
while it is also believed that Summicron 35/2 replica produces good quality pictures easily.
We can find the overall style of the replica’s productions is clear and bright.
With such a sharp contrast, performance of this lens is between modern and old, while its overall performance is closer to modern ones. Comparing with 7 Elements, the contrast is even higher.
Of course, you will also find soft atmospheric lighting moments, which I would leave to masters who prefer larger apertures.
From photographic films, I find incredible 3D quality of the lens, while its precise resolution, from centre to edge, is just right.
Therefore, the micro contrast function makes Summicron 35/2 replica more comfortable to be used than those modern lens. Transitions is more subtle than I can image.
Luckily, I got a leaded version that helps me to save those low-key details from high contrast, or it may turn all dark.
I will sum up my experience and share with you guys in the coming section.

1.


2.


3.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1572
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Indeed, looks very sharp from corner to corner and the optics look to be handling high contrasts scenes quite well!
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Old 02-12-2020   #1573
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Now is the time to be hearing good news about the process of lens orders and delivery. The replica lens is obviously an excellent lens overall.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1574
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What's going on here? At full resolution, there's a very mushy looking zone in the trees on the right, and then near the corner, it gets sharp again! I don't see this on the left side, which is probably because it'scloser, but I also don't see it in the other pictures. Any chance this was actually shot at a wider aperture? The EXIF aperture estimate thinks so, it shows 2.4. This seems to conform to the MTF graph posted somewhere here, but I didn't expect it to be this visible, especially at f/5.6 or 8. Must be an effect of a strange, complex field curvature?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Schwartzreic View Post
Here in northern Vermont, we just had a couple of days of storm, and today the sun came out. There is little up here usually to take pictures of this time of year, but I took out the 8-element prototype and shot a series of images of snow on the trees. M10, ISO 200, either f/5.6 or f/8. Only in bit of exposure brightening in PS, one image is cropped slightly.

See what you think.

Ed

L1003780 by woodswoman57, on Flickr

L1003776 by woodswoman57, on Flickr
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Old 02-12-2020   #1575
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Also seems to be a quick transition from sharp to mushy in the upper right corner, if you download the full image file from flickr
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Old 02-12-2020   #1576
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What does this all imply about the lens? Was it the scan or the lens or the camera?
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Old 02-12-2020   #1577
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I still have the file on my SD card, and having only a short time right now to respond, I looked at it on th M10’s view screen, and zoomed in. This appears much sharper in those tree branches than what I see in the flickr image. Of course this may just be the camera optimizing a jpeg.

Later I will again off-load the file and have another look at it in LR or PS.

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Old 02-12-2020   #1578
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It is most likely something that happened in the file uploading to Flickr or similar issue. I once had a similar problem, but DAG identified it as a lens element inside the Canon 50/1.2 LTM having moved! Parts (front, back, left, right) of the image would be sharp and then some parts would be blurry. Don moved the lens element back into its correct place, and the lens was sharp again across the image plane.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Schwartzreic View Post
Karbe did make the point strongly that Leica lenses are meant to be used wide open, that one only needs to stop down for DOF or presumably exposure issues. He implied that this had been Leica's philosophy going back also.
I feel like I'm missing something here. I'll wait for someone to correct me. But, I figured that in the past people just weren't shooting wide open. I suppose they could have used slower films, but in general, I assumed that shooting outside meant that you weren't shooting wide open most of the time. Especially give the max shutter speed of 1/1000.

Are we really to think that these lenses were designed to be shot wide open when most of the time the'd be around f/8?

Thanks!

Brad
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Old 02-12-2020   #1580
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Also is some weirdness in the upper left corner of this one. Again, a quick transition from sharp to fuzzy. This one appears to have been cropped? as the dimensions are different from the other photo linked above.

L1003778 by woodswoman57, on Flickr
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Old 02-12-2020   #1581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkzter View Post
I feel like I'm missing something here. I'll wait for someone to correct me. But, I figured that in the past people just weren't shooting wide open. I suppose they could have used slower films, but in general, I assumed that shooting outside meant that you weren't shooting wide open most of the time. Especially give the max shutter speed of 1/1000.

Are we really to think that these lenses were designed to be shot wide open when most of the time the'd be around f/8?

Thanks!

Brad
It could be that Leica was focusing on indoor photography for journalists where shooting wide open was a requirement. Try using f8.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkzter View Post
I feel like I'm missing something here. I'll wait for someone to correct me. But, I figured that in the past people just weren't shooting wide open. I suppose they could have used slower films, but in general, I assumed that shooting outside meant that you weren't shooting wide open most of the time. Especially give the max shutter speed of 1/1000.

Are we really to think that these lenses were designed to be shot wide open when most of the time the'd be around f/8?

Thanks!

Brad
One point to consider is that film where slower before , so getting a picture of a shadow area with a fast speed (since we are talking about news and fast action photography) required to use a wide apperture.

Regards

Marcelo
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Old 02-12-2020   #1583
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Quote:
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It could be that Leica was focusing on indoor photography for journalists where shooting wide open was a requirement. Try using f8.
Agree. We are talking about indoors news conference and the like. No flash either.

Marcelo
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Old 02-12-2020   #1584
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In old times, film sensitivity was very low. I once had a LF lens 362mm with max aperture 1.66. The lens was huge. The camera was used during WWII. Film sensitivity may have been ISO 10 then.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Schwartzreic View Post
I still have the file on my SD card, and having only a short time right now to respond, I looked at it on th M10’s view screen, and zoomed in. This appears much sharper in those tree branches than what I see in the flickr image. Of course this may just be the camera optimizing a jpeg.

Later I will again off-load the file and have another look at it in LR or PS.

Ed
Could it be wind in the trees?
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Old 02-12-2020   #1586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
Leica has always been about the..wide open shot..
Nikon...not so..
I found that out back in the day..
Problem is that can be tough outside w a max shutter speed of 1/1000 sec. Even with an ND filter.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1587
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A partial answer to several questions. Yes, the max film speed which reporters usually used was 400 for Tri-X, which sometimes was pushed to 800 or 1600. One needed f/2 or f/1.4 often inside or in situations where one also needed a speed of 1/125 or higher. Some times it was f/2 @ 1/25 sec and be there, other times it was f/2 at 1/250 where there was action.

An then you might be caught in a very bright environment and really need a slower film, so one either pulled out another camera body, or rewound the film and reloaded. Just as one tried to prepare for the assignment wth the proper focal length lenses and film speeds, one had to be prepared to the unforseen. It is so much easier with digital.

———————————

Yes, that one image was cropped, as I had originally said. I also checked the lens for any smudge or other artifact, and also looked at my sensor. Both were clean.

Yes there could have been wind. The EXIF only said 1/3000 sec and ISO 200, but that speed ought to have been enough to stop motion in the field.

Later today or tomorrow I will look at the files again.

Ed
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Old 02-12-2020   #1588
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Quote:
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Could it be wind in the trees?

It's not wind. Wind would be more visible on branches closer to the camera and less on those further away, more on thin branches and less on thicker ones.

And it wouldn't be only in the zone where the MTF graphs in post 1553 predict lower resolution! More clearly visible: The zone where resolution is high again before it drops off in the extreme corner is exactly where the bump is in the MTF graph, around 17mm out. This is the lens, and apparently the original does it too. It must be complex field curvature.

I was just surprised to see this so clearly in this picture which Ed wrote, mistakenly, had been taken at 5.6 or 8. It's in fact taken at a wide aperture, so it's ok, landscapes at wide apertures can't be expected to be sharp anyway because of limited dof. Curious to see what it looks like in closer, more typical wide-open situations though. It would be cool if someone who has the original or replica could post a shot down on something with a regular pattern, like a tiled floor, extending away from the camera. I think we'd see a more or less mustache shaped "plane" of sharpness.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1589
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I looked at that image with the fuzzy to sharp transition, and a couple of others which I had not uploaded, as raw files. The issue definitely was there in all three of my files that I examined. I don't know what to say about the cause, but I guess I will make the excuse that my lens was a prototype, and not the finished product. I had two prototypes to test, so I do not know whether this was an issue with the other one (which is now elsewhere).

Perhaps someone on the thread in China who has a production lens could try to see if anything like this happens with their example. A mystery.

Ed
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Old 02-12-2020   #1590
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I hope that there is no lens design error in the way the lens elements have been placed.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Schwartzreic View Post
I looked at that image with the fuzzy to sharp transition, and a couple of others which I had not uploaded, as raw files. The issue definitely was there in all three of my files that I examined. I don't know what to say about the cause, but I guess I will make the excuse that my lens was a prototype, and not the finished product. I had two prototypes to test, so I do not know whether this was an issue with the other one (which is now elsewhere).

Perhaps someone on the thread in China who has a production lens could try to see if anything like this happens with their example. A mystery.

Ed

Ed, is it even toward all four corners?
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Old 02-12-2020   #1592
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Problem is that can be tough outside w a max shutter speed of 1/1000 sec. Even with an ND filter.
Not really. Panatomic was available then (asa32). That would be about f/2.8 at 1000th so about 500 ay f/1.4 on shadow. It was pretty different reality back then.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1593
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... but I didn't expect it to be this visible, especially at f/5.6 or 8. Must be an effect of a strange, complex field curvature?
This is typical of a 35mm lens. I take this and use it to my advantage.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1594
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Ed, is it even toward all four corners?
It's a typical rendition of all 35mm lenses. Also, some photos have been cropped, so the angle of view has changed. Nothing to worry about guys.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1595
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It's a typical rendition of all 35mm lenses. Also, some photos have been cropped, so the angle of view has changed. Nothing to worry about guys.
Huh, what exactly is a typical rendition of all 35mm lenses? Sharpness here doesn't simply fall off toward the corners. It comes back very near the extreme corner, before it falls off again. As I wrote before, of course it's nothing to be alarmed about, but unusual it is.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1596
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Huh, what exactly is a typical rendition of all 35mm lenses? Sharpness here doesn't simply fall off toward the corners. It comes back very near the extreme corner, before it falls off again. As I wrote before, of course it's nothing to be alarmed about, but unusual it is.
Yes, this sharpness eveness from centre to the extreme corner before falling off steeply is a good description of a typical 35mm lens angle of view. I'm not referring to all lenses, just the 35mm angle of view - typical curvature of field of a 35mm angle of view. Also, the image was cropped. It also helps to see the Curvature of Field performance realting to sharpness evident in the MTF charts provided in the last couple of pages of this thread.

About the "mushiness" on the right side before the extreme corners - this looks like camera spin from hand held shooting. The right side of the hand as the shutter is pressed lobs the image to the right from camera shake.

Sorry, I'm writting this before I head off to work - but there's nothing to worry about these details, although they can be unusual at first glance.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1597
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Teddy, please read again what you replied to. The image in question does not display what you describe. And camera spin wouldn't leave an area near the corner unaffected.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1598
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I wonder whatever happened to the 35mm external viewfinder?
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Old 02-12-2020   #1599
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Kevin said that the finder could be ordered later on, I think.
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Old 02-12-2020   #1600
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Xasthur, if i'm making the right assumption here, the Chinese New Year holiday was extended as a measure against the corona virus & has had an effect on the economy: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/08/coro...-holidays.html
I'm guessing the early photos of the viewfinder are prototypes and not production models.
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