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Interesting Comments on Apparent New "Leica M 240" photos
Old 01-22-2013   #1
dcsang
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Interesting Comments on Apparent New "Leica M 240" photos

http://leicarumors.com/2013/01/22/fi...e-online.aspx/

Note some of the comments on the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater and on the Leica blog: http://blog.leica-camera.com/photogr...th-jean-gaumy/

These images have been attributed to the Leica M but it appears they were taken back in September 2012 (based on what is stated in the images exif and what the weather would be like in Kyrgyzstan at that time of the year)

I wonder if there's something to this or if Leica's just really really really good at covering their digital tracks. . . .

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 01-22-2013   #2
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I find it hilarious that so many M9 owners are hoping for the M240 to fail, so they feel better about their existing camera and so they wont lose value. As for the notion that M9 prices will go up, have they forgotten about the availability of the ME?

If I showed snaps like these for the 5D III everyone would say the same thing, but until we have real cameras being reviewed and compared, we will not know what the true performance is. Lets not forget, lots of manufacturers' CMOS cameras have been producing stunning images for a long time. Going back to CCD is a dead end and Leica knows it. I cannot fathom how so many Leicaphiles are in denial. CMOS will allow the M240 to be used in a wider variety of light levels by more photographers. Any tiny loss in base ISO 'sharpness' is irrelevant compared to overall utility when it comes to the great images that can be associated with a camera.

I love Leica, but do not understand the unwillingness of some to accept that a) anything can be subjectively better than a Leica or b) that newer Leicaas can be better than old ones, esp in the digital realm. How many people b1tched about the M9 and proclaimed their M8s superior tools? Is this all connected to people still hoping digital Leicas will be an investment?
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Old 01-23-2013   #3
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turtle: sounds like a rant. take a deep breath. hope you feel better.
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Old 01-23-2013   #4
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I'm not sure that m9 owners want the M. to fail. What I do know is that the mechanical rangefinders accuracy is at it's limit in the M9. Leica are only too aware hence no 135 6 bit on M9 ( till M announced ) I for one don't want a Leica with lots of attachments to circumvent the problem of moving to higher pixel counts. I would like to bet my socks the next M340 or whatever will have the electronic screen built in replacing the mechanical R.F. & a focus confirmation dot ....erm .. Just like Lumix etc.
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Old 01-23-2013   #5
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I don't really see the problem even if the photos were shot in September. I agree it might not be ideal, but just because the shots are from then doesn't mean they aren't a true representation of the quality.

Firmware gets updated of course, but who says the image quality wasn't tweaked to as good as it gets already then. There are a lot of other work that goes into firmwares other than pure image quality, so the camera might have produced expected quality, but it might have been very unstable from a usability perspective etc.

What I have a problem understand with these images is that I find them very uninspiring, for some reason I would just expect something more seeing that they can be considered promotional images. Perhaps they are after the most "out of camera" look they can get, but I think it would be more interesting to see what they'd look like after more (any?) post processing.

I just imagine not too many people nowadays goes straight out of camera directly to publishing? So for me it is more interesting to see how much the file can be worked with, rather than what it looks like straight out of the camera.

Obviously, these are all guesses more or less.

EDIT: maybe these are OOC jpegs by the way? In that case I guess my comment on post processing isn't really applicable.
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Old 01-23-2013   #6
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I'm beginning to understand the meaning of "distracting" when it comes to images. Those images are so bad (well, banal), they completely distract from the OP topics.

I do find the Euro-Unitedstatian fixation on third-world imagery per se to try to elicit "oooohs" and "aaahs" very gênant.

I think that if they (Leica marketing) spent some time researching photographers online who use (and like) Leica rangefinders, they'd get far better results. But like in most x-cracies, access is king.
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Old 01-23-2013   #7
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Isn't this meant merely as proof that they have cameras in the hands of (several) testers? In other words, "we are getting close to bringing the product to a store near you".
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Old 01-23-2013   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalintrigue View Post
Apparently Leica is good at generating an internet kerfuffle...is there some devious Leica marketing guy fiddling with exif data, grinning at all these comments coming up on his computer screen?
That's what I thought too...

And Gabriel ... I tend to agree with your comments..

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 01-23-2013   #9
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From a comment left by Leica on 1 of the FB comments:

"Leica Camera Hi everyone! Thank you for your comments. We’ve seen a lot of questions regarding the EXIF data. Jean Gaumy went to Kyrgyzstan with a Leica M9 in his package, because the Leica M prototype wasn’t ready at that exact moment. However, he just started this series with a M9. In fact, approx. 90% of all photos were taken with a new Leica M. Purporting that all images are from a Leica M was really not our intention. Sorry!!

The Kyrgyzstan series will be continued and there are more installments to come, so please stay tuned for more genuine Leica M photos. Again, thank you for reaching out!"

So the shots in this installment are from the M9, after all. So much for CCD "magic" v. CMOS "flatness." Sometimes banal shots are banal for reasons unrelated to the gear used. Imagine that.
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Old 01-23-2013   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by furcafe View Post
So the shots in this installment are from M9, after all. So much for CCD "magic" v. CMOS "flatness." Sometimes banal shots are banal for reasons unrelated to the gear used. Imagine that.
*LOL*

Fancy that - so all those who were "*** pooing" the apparent M were, in fact, *** pooing their M9's - I gotta shake my head at both Leica and those who were belittling the apparently new sensor via the whole CCD vs CMOS thing.

Leica should know better since they stated, in that same facebook post:
Quote:
The blog will follow Jean Gaumy as he revisits Kyrgyzstan on a photographic journey with the new Leica M.
- seems to me pretty clear WHY people would think the images that are shown would be from the new M.

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 01-23-2013   #11
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They should've really posted that it came from an D-Lux 6.
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Old 01-23-2013   #12
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Yeah, they probably should have clarified the original post rather than simply responding to comments, but that's the nature of modern media. Presumably, as Mr. Gaumy's series continues, there will be more M 240 shots in the mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsang View Post
*LOL*

Fancy that - so all those who were "*** pooing" the apparent M were, in fact, *** pooing their M9's - I gotta shake my head at both Leica and those who were belittling the apparently new sensor via the whole CCD vs CMOS thing.

Leica should know better since they stated, in that same facebook post: - seems to me pretty clear WHY people would think the images that are shown would be from the new M.

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 01-23-2013   #13
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This just reminds me of when autofanatics see a Prototype test mule of a car coming soon and they judge the car based on a test mule.
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Old 01-23-2013   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsang View Post
*LOL*
Fancy that - so all those who were "*** pooing" the apparent M were, in fact, *** pooing their M9's - I gotta shake my head at both Leica and those who were belittling the apparently new sensor via the whole CCD vs CMOS thing.
that is in fact priceless
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Old 01-23-2013   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsang View Post
*LOL*

Fancy that - so all those who were "*** pooing" the apparent M were, in fact, *** pooing their M9's - I gotta shake my head at both Leica and those who were belittling the apparently new sensor via the whole CCD vs CMOS thing.

Leica should know better since they stated, in that same facebook post: - seems to me pretty clear WHY people would think the images that are shown would be from the new M.

Cheers,
Dave
no. if you read Furcafe's post above....Leica say that 90% of the photos are from the new M.
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Old 01-23-2013   #16
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No, while 90% of the photos in *the series* are from the new M, those in the first installment are not (with the possible exception of the shots in the "contact sheet" w/gray background at the bottom of the Leica blog post).

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
no. if you read Furcafe's post above....Leica say that 90% of the photos are from the new M.
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Old 01-23-2013   #17
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Jean Gaumy is obviously a talented photographer, if you go to the Magnum site and look at his past work.

But looking at this new batch of pictures and the Normandy shots that he made I can't say that I'm impressed.

It appears that Mr. Gaumy is not the technically most proficient shooter out there. The images are nearly all overexposed, as if he had solely relied on the internal meter. All of the shadows are heavily lifted and the highlights are nearly blown, which is typical of a metering system trying to turn whatever it is aimed at in to a middle gray value. None of the images appear to have been post processed. They look like they were dumped from the card in to a RAW converter and that was it. The only conclusion I can draw from these is that despite the poor exposure setting, the sensor has been able to hold on to detail in the skies, which indicates to me that it can captures quite a large exposure range and that is a good thing.

As for the composition; pretty mediocre. Looking at his past work it's obvious that he can do a lot better.
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Old 01-23-2013   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by furcafe View Post
No, while 90% of the photos in *the series* are from the new M, those in the first installment are not (with the possible exception of the shots in the "contact sheet" w/gray background at the bottom of the Leica blog post).
well... here's the exif distribution:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ml#post2294339
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Old 01-23-2013   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel M.A. View Post
I do find the Euro-Unitedstatian fixation on third-world imagery per se to try to elicit "oooohs" and "aaahs" very gênant.
I agree. I was more distracted and annoyed by Mr Gaumy's commentary, his still living in the 60s.
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Old 01-23-2013   #20
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I know we shouldn't be reading too much into these first few examples to apear, but they're a long way from what I'd like to have seen.
I want an alternative to Canon files, and my M6 with film gives me this. These could have been taken with any Canon of the last few years.
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Old 01-23-2013   #21
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...and my M6 with film gives me this...
Seeing the way that Leica digital is heading, I sold my M8, bought a (magnificent!) Mamiya 6 kit, and use it with my Leica M6, a CL, a 500cm and a couple of nice old Pen half-frames. Enjoy your M6 - put some Portra in there and bask in the sheer wonderfulness, dimensionality, beautiful skin-tones and highlight rendition it gives you. Every now and again you can look at those images on the Leica blog to remind you how lucky you are to have such an awesome camera in your hands.
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Old 01-23-2013   #22
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Quote:
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Seeing the way that Leica digital is heading, I sold my M8, bought a (magnificent!) Mamiya 6 kit, and use it with my Leica M6, a CL, a 500cm and a couple of nice old Pen half-frames. Enjoy your M6 - put some Portra in there and bask in the sheer wonderfulness, dimensionality, beautiful skin-tones and highlight rendition it gives you. Every now and again you can look at those images on the Leica blog to remind you how lucky you are to have such an awesome camera in your hands.
I don't disagree with any of that, but for work needs the high iso capability is difficult to refuse, while my Fuji x100 tells me that digital colour doesn't have to be so.....well, digital. While Fuji seem to be trying to find a separate niche for themselves, Leica look to be squeezing a Canon into a Range Finder.
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Old 01-23-2013   #23
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While Fuji seem to be trying to find a separate niche for themselves, Leica look to be squeezing a Canon into a Range Finder.
+1 what bobby said
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Old 01-23-2013   #24
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There is certainly no pressing need for me to upgrade my M9. It continues to do exactly what I ask it to do, just like my M6. If I need a CMOS sensor for my work I'll pull out my Canon. I am afraid that Leica is starting to loose its differentiation, something that seems to be very easy to do in this digital world. I can already use Leica glass on other cameras via adaptors, now I can take Canon-like images on my Leica.
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Old 01-23-2013   #25
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I posted an opinion on another forum this morning to the title of "Expectations for the new M" which I think are germaine here as well:

Quote:
My expectations are very simple:

- It will be a fine Leica, an advance on the M9 in terms of responsiveness and features, lens compatibility and versatility. The ability to do Live View and capture video will expand the M's usefulness by quite a lot.

- It will be different from an M9 in terms of how it sees.

Every digital camera I've owned has a slightly different way of seeing. That's why I've owned so many different ones. The M9's eye is quite lovely, I'm very happy with it. The new M will most likely have a different eye ... new sensor, more pixels, different microlens setup, etc ... but until I have the camera in my hands I cannot and will not judge whether I like it more, less, or the same as the M9.

- It potentially can help simplify my camera gear by some measure. Its ability to do macro and long lens work means that I would have less need to keep my other TTL electronic and SLR bodies around, as those two things are most of what I do with them.

However, I've seen that a good deal of my attempt to simplify my gear hasn't really done much to do that, so I don't expect a miracle. Because all of my cameras are different, I find it a pleasure to use different ones in different circumstances. I don't need to sell any of them other than to satisfy an internal urge to less ownership of things. So, the likelihood is that buying a new M will just add another camera to the already overstuffed cabinet. Such it is. :-\

I look forward to the new M, without any haste or anxiousness. I'll be using the M9 for some years to come, I expect that if I decide to buy a new M it will be in 2014 or later. Leica will have plenty of time to work out any new product issues before I plunk my money down. :-)
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Old 01-23-2013   #26
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A digital Canon RF would be quite popular, just not popular enough for Canon to bother making one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyrab View Post
I don't disagree with any of that, but for work needs the high iso capability is difficult to refuse, while my Fuji x100 tells me that digital colour doesn't have to be so.....well, digital. While Fuji seem to be trying to find a separate niche for themselves, Leica look to be squeezing a Canon into a Range Finder.
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Old 01-23-2013   #27
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Exactly, not 90% from the M 240.

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Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
well... here's the exif distribution:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ml#post2294339
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Old 01-24-2013   #28
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I think for their next digital M, Leica should learn from RD-1 that a manual shutter cocking "advance lever" would bring a flood of nostalgia and money out of the pockets of their potential customers.
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Old 01-24-2013   #29
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Quote:
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I am afraid that Leica is starting to loose its differentiation, something that seems to be very easy to do in this digital world.
I'm not sure Leica needs a CCD sensor in order to have its differentiation. After all, Leica had sufficient differentiation throughout the film era without the need for special film. Leica used the same Tri-X, Kodachrome and other films that every other camera used. And yet it found its market. The differentiation was in the body type and the lenses, including the overall size, quality and feel of the system.
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Old 01-25-2013   #30
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Quote:
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I'm not sure Leica needs a CCD sensor in order to have its differentiation. After all, Leica had sufficient differentiation throughout the film era without the need for special film. Leica used the same Tri-X, Kodachrome and other films that every other camera used. And yet it found its market. The differentiation was in the body type and the lenses, including the overall size, quality and feel of the system.
I agree. If it removes the rangefinder from its M cameras, then we can talk about differentiation.
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Old 01-25-2013   #31
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Leica are a company trading in a World that is driven by profit. Leica nearly went to the wall 5 or so years ago because only the die hard Leica users like me, bought and used cameras that to everyone else in the World were old fashioned and not desireable, compared to the Japanese techie things. I personally don't like the way Leica have turned into the Luis Vitton fashion icon of the camera World, however they have recently posted record profits and they can now name their price for their " desirable " product. ( see 50mm asph ). So as the saying goes you pays ya money and takes ya choice. Come on Fuji full frame M body please
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Old 01-25-2013   #32
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I choose the tool based on utility and form factor rather than split bem based on CMOS and CCD, but I guess we are all different.

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Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
There is certainly no pressing need for me to upgrade my M9. It continues to do exactly what I ask it to do, just like my M6. If I need a CMOS sensor for my work I'll pull out my Canon. I am afraid that Leica is starting to loose its differentiation, something that seems to be very easy to do in this digital world. I can already use Leica glass on other cameras via adaptors, now I can take Canon-like images on my Leica.
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Old 01-25-2013   #33
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I agree. If it removes the rangefinder from its M cameras, then we can talk about differentiation.
Looking at the way people are preparing for the new M (there's a REALLY long thread over on LUF, as you know) the most interesting thing is the way so many M-users (current and first-time) are stocking-up on lenses that will require the use of live-view: either through the Olympus EVF or at arm's length on the LCD.

Having looked at the camera output so far, I think it's fair to say that the real excitement being generated by the M-240 has got nothing to do with "image quality" and everything to do with the supposed potential of the camera 'freed' from the 'limitations' of the rangefinder.

As far as I can see, what the 240 has to offer, is a luxurious full-frame mirrorless vehicle for a wider range of lenses.
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Old 01-26-2013   #34
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I am interested to see if Leica will use the CMOS in a future version of the M-E. I would rather have a stripped down version of the new M.
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Old 01-26-2013   #35
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A lot of people have talked themselves into thinking that CCD is magic in a misguided attempt to justify their M8's and 9's. But CMOS is clearly the way to go. Even research microscopists, who relied on CCDs for 20+ years, are converting en masse to high-end CMOS sensors except in specialized applications.

I do still have an Olympus E-500 and that 8 Mpix Kodak sensor does give splendid output at low ISO. But at high ISO it just falls to pieces while my CMOS cameras (especially the Fujis) just keep going.

Have faith, folks. I have a good share of gripes with Leica but they do know what they're doing here. Expect the M240 to be very good. Just don't expect it to be magic. And remember that at ISO 1600 or below a Mamiya 7 loaded with Portra will still beat it on most any IQ axis for a fraction of the price.
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Old 01-26-2013   #36
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I am interested to see if Leica will use the CMOS in a future version of the M-E. I would rather have a stripped down version of the new M.
I would be amazed if they did not.
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Old 02-17-2013   #37
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I love Leica, but do not understand the unwillingness of some to accept that a) anything can be subjectively better than a Leica or b) that newer Leicaas can be better than old ones, esp in the digital realm. How many people b1tched about the M9 and proclaimed their M8s superior tools? Is this all connected to people still hoping digital Leicas will be an investment?
a)I dont accept that since Im the judge for myself . Objectively its not hard to find products that are better in some kind of way than Leica.

b) Not only do I accept that, but I expect and demand that newer are better than the old ones. Looking at specs this seems to be the case.

A normal consumer digital camera model as an investment? I dont think so.

What I don't get is
c) that some are questioning the artistic qualities of some early images from a given model-to-come . Honestly, are there still someone who believes that the inherent artistic values of an image are somehow related to a slighly newer model?
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Old 02-17-2013   #38
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...What I don't get is
c) that some are questioning the artistic qualities of some early images from a given model-to-come . Honestly, are there still someone who believes that the inherent artistic values of an image are somehow related to a slighly newer model?
Exactly... IMO this is not an artistic endeavor at this point; these guys are testing firmware and looking for challenging situations to stress it. It's simply a technical exercise. We may see art after the cameras ship to customers.
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Old 02-18-2013   #39
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I think for their next digital M, Leica should learn from RD-1 that a manual shutter cocking "advance lever" would bring a flood of nostalgia and money out of the pockets of their potential customers.
All three of them?
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Old 02-18-2013   #40
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I'm not sure that m9 owners want the M. to fail. What I do know is that the mechanical rangefinders accuracy is at it's limit in the M9. Leica are only too aware hence no 135 6 bit on M9 ( till M announced ) I for one don't want a Leica with lots of attachments to circumvent the problem of moving to higher pixel counts. I would like to bet my socks the next M340 or whatever will have the electronic screen built in replacing the mechanical R.F. & a focus confirmation dot ....erm .. Just like Lumix etc.
Which would make people buy the cheaper Lumix.... The word unlikely comes to mind. I'll PM you an address you can send your socks to. For one thing a camera without rangefinder can never be an M(esssucher) camera by definition.
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