M2 BP for 19k?
Old 04-20-2017   #1
bayernfan
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M2 BP for 19k?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M2-Bla...-/122451505446

thoughts on this one? must be a rather rare thing to ask that kind money.
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Old 04-20-2017   #2
madNbad
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Same camera at the same price has been on the KEH catalog site for the last year. Noticed over the last few weeks it was no longer listed and thought someone had actually bought it.
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Old 04-20-2017   #3
CameraQuest
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that does not look like original paint to me.

see http://cameraquest.com home page

a black M2 is shown being used as a lens cap
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Old 04-20-2017   #4
bayernfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
that does not look like original paint to me.

see http://cameraquest.com home page

a black M2 is shown being used as a lens cap
both fall within the appropriate serial range:

948601** 949100** Leica M2 Schwz Lackiert 1958 500**

i'm no BP expert, but the paint wear / patina doesn't seem drastically different between the linked and the one on your home page.
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Old 04-20-2017   #5
enasniearth
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An original button rewind m2 just closed at $4600 on ebay
It was engraved on the back under the wind lever with the
Photographers name a professional who also taught
I think only 300 black m2 were button rewind no self timer type from that first batch
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Old 04-20-2017   #6
maddoc
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The original "L" seal is gone so we don`t know if parts were swapped or repairs done since the camera left the factory. Might not be 100% original anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayernfan View Post
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M2-Bla...-/122451505446

thoughts on this one? must be a rather rare thing to ask that kind money.
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Old 04-20-2017   #7
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KEH is good but sometimes mistakenly prices things.

I was able to score my RF135 lens from them for a measly $300. For such a rare lens I would've guessed it should've been priced much higher, but I think they mis-identified it as a normal Bronica lens and not the one for the RF645.
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Old 04-21-2017   #8
Erik van Straten
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In my opinion, both cameras, the one on KEH and the one on Cameraquest, are real, exept that the speed dial and some other parts (illuminating window) on the Cameraquest camera are replaced. The original speed dials of this series have bigger numerals.

$4600 for an original BP button rewind M2 is a steal. Recently Schouten, in the Netherlands, sold one for EUR 25.000.

Enasniearth is right, the last 200 or so of this batch of 500 have lever rewind as the button was not very popular at the time. It needs to be pressed down all the time when rewinding the film.

Erik.
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Old 04-21-2017   #9
sevo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddoc View Post
The original "L" seal is gone so we don`t know if parts were swapped or repairs done since the camera left the factory. Might not be 100% original anymore.
Assuming it to be genuine at the core, it has at least seen extensive repairs. The mount looks like new, which is unlikely given the amount of paint wear on the body - not entirely impossible, as the camera might have been used with a fixed lens throughout, but chances are that the mount is a replacement. And the top cap must have been at least partially repainted as well - it is plain impossible that a camera with that much wear to the wind lever should have no paint wear on the body next to the lever. That makes it hardly collectable, at least not for top price collectors. Unless there is a new fad for using a well-worn black M2 that escaped me, it will not move that soon...
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Old 04-21-2017   #10
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevo View Post
And the top cap must have been at least partially repainted as well
Yes, I see that repainted part too, but usually these repaints can be wiped off easily.

A strange thing is the chrome inside the tripod nut ... an adapter?

Erik.
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Old 04-21-2017   #11
Fraser
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I saw this after it was sold and even though its not a button rewind it was a good deal!
http://www.apertureuk.com/Leica/M2-b...lackpaint.html
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Old 04-21-2017   #12
Fraser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Yes, I see that repainted part too, but usually these repaints can be wiped off easily.

A strange thing is the chrome inside the tripod nut ...

Erik.
I thought the middle of the shutter speed dial should be black?
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Old 04-21-2017   #13
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser View Post
I thought the middle of the shutter speed dial should be black?
Yes, I thought so too, but it seems that this is only the case with earlier cameras of the series, until about 948820. (the start is 948600)

Erik.
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Old 04-21-2017   #14
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser View Post
I saw this after it was sold and even though its not a button rewind it was a good deal!
http://www.apertureuk.com/Leica/M2-b...lackpaint.html
Yes, an extremely good deal!

Erik.
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Old 04-21-2017   #15
Fraser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Yes, an extremely good deal!

Erik.
They had this at the same time even better deal.
http://www.apertureuk.com/Leica/M4-b...lackpaint.html


I do wonder how much they gave the person who traded them in!
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Old 04-21-2017   #16
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser View Post
They had this at the same time even better deal.
http://www.apertureuk.com/Leica/M4-b...lackpaint.html


I do wonder how much they gave the person who traded them in!
Good Lord.

Erik.
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Old 04-21-2017   #17
John Lawrence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser View Post
They had this at the same time even better deal.
http://www.apertureuk.com/Leica/M4-b...lackpaint.html


I do wonder how much they gave the person who traded them in!
... may have been a commission sale.

But the problem dealers have, is that many are wary of selling black paint M's for top dollar unless they can provide cast-iron provenance with it, for fear of litigation or having their reputation trashed.

Add in the fact that many collectors want the item to be completely original and untouched, and it becomes a bit of a nightmare for them - so they sell them 'as-is' at a reasonable price, and state that they believe it to be genuine, but it's an old camera that's been used, so who knows what's happened to it over the years.

John
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Old 04-21-2017   #18
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lawrence View Post
... may have been a commission sale.

But the problem dealers have, is that many are wary of selling black paint M's for top dollar unless they can provide cast-iron provenance with it, for fear of litigation or having their reputation trashed.

Add in the fact that many collectors want the item to be completely original and untouched, and it becomes a bit of a nightmare for them - so they sell them 'as-is' at a reasonable price, and state that they believe it to be genuine, but it's an old camera that's been used, so who knows what's happened to it over the years.
But we are talking about very old cameras. These are always used and repaired. The more they are used, the more wanted they are. It is only the rarity that counts. Dealers should know that (most do, believe me), otherwise they cut in their own fingers.

Erik.
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Old 04-21-2017   #19
John Lawrence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
But we are talking about very old cameras. These are always used and repaired. The more they are used, the more wanted they are. It is only the rarity that counts. Dealers should know that (most do, believe me), otherwise they cut in their own fingers.

Erik.
Not in my experience.

I've touted my ex PJ Black Paint M2 around just about all of them - and they all say what I've posted above!

As an aside, most have suggested that anyone wanting to sell a Black Paint M in today's market is best advised to sell at auction where it's caveat emptor.

However, I'd be more than happy if you, or one of the dealers you know, were able to sell it for 19K!

John

Last edited by John Lawrence : 04-21-2017 at 09:30. Reason: Hi-lighted the wrong bit of text
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Old 04-22-2017   #20
steveyork
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Many of the BP or Leica items with documentation on ebay are in my mind questionable. I'll just leave it at that. Buyer beware.
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