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Old 02-16-2020   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Trouble is we only learn about the dud ones. There might be thousands out there unaffected. Leica could do a little more to reassure us...


Regards, David
Pretty much every single M9/M-E has failed.
I don't know of anyone who has/had an M9 that did NOT fail. That's why no-one will touch an M9 on the used mkt unless it is documented to have the latest sensor in it.
And that only protects against sensor corrosion failure.
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Old 02-16-2020   #42
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M9 is not slim. It’s a chunky thing.
As a user of both the M9 and Leica M film cameras, I can say the reports of its chunkiness are exaggerated. OK, it's a little thicker, front to back, than an M2. But this is only really noticed during fondling, not when shooting. If I go from my M2 or other film M bodies to the M9, the difference is not a problem. It simply feels like an M9 is supposed to feel. I wouldn't buy an M10 just because it's the same thickness as my M2!
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Old 02-16-2020   #43
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M9 is a unique camera with its CCD sensor. But personally I think it's better to get an M10 instead of paying $1700 to replace a sensor. I bought my M10 in 2017, and I never regret it. It helps me to capture so many enjoyable moments without failing me. Its user experience is way better than M9.

By the way, my experience with Leica digital is so far, so good. I bought a second-hand M9 in 2010 and 2014. I send them to Leica NJ in 2013 and 2017. The staff in Leica NJ accepted the camera without asking a receipt or warranty card. They replaced the latest sensor for me and also replaced the leather at the same time for free. I will keep my M9 as a backup camera with M10.
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Old 02-16-2020   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry View Post
but literally all electronics are doomed.

Now I have to worry about my 1972 HP-21 calculator with RPN failing. If that fails I'll have to drop back to my slide rule. (nobody makes a calculator anymore with RPN).
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Old 02-16-2020   #45
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I prefer RPN, too. I'm stocked up: I have an HP-11, two HP 41c, and another HP I can't remember the number of. I keep meaning to add an HP-12.
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Old 02-16-2020   #46
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Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
They replaced the latest sensor for me and also replaced the leather at the same time for free. I will keep my M9 as a backup camera with M10.
They have to replace the leather as they have to remove the old one and cannot reuse it.
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Old 02-16-2020   #47
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They have to replace the leather as they have to remove the old one and cannot reuse it.

Yeah, I know it. What I mean is I appreciate their service.
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Old 02-17-2020   #48
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Now I have to worry about my 1972 HP-21 calculator with RPN failing. If that fails I'll have to drop back to my slide rule. (nobody makes a calculator anymore with RPN).
Probably no need to worry. Plenty of 70s electronics are still working. HPs were mostly built to a quality over price and they still seem to be plentiful in working order. They do actually still make new RPN calculators too - I have a 35S that's not very old and still made.
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Old 02-17-2020   #49
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Quote:
nobody makes a calculator anymore with RPN).
There are apps available.

Do a search and you’ll find several.
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Old 02-17-2020   #50
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I really like the M9 handling. Besides the thickness, Leica M9 button and menu are so easy to use. I played with my friend's M240 and I couldn't get used to the button layout. M10 is pretty easy to use too.

Another thing i now realized why the M10 never felt good when I played with it at Leica Paris and Leica Washington DC, it didn't have black paint , my M9 has a classic black paint and over time, the patina showed up nicely, I felt good every time I used it.

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As a user of both the M9 and Leica M film cameras, I can say the reports of its chunkiness are exaggerated. OK, it's a little thicker, front to back, than an M2. But this is only really noticed during fondling, not when shooting. If I go from my M2 or other film M bodies to the M9, the difference is not a problem. It simply feels like an M9 is supposed to feel. I wouldn't buy an M10 just because it's the same thickness as my M2!
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Old 02-17-2020   #51
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If you shoot Leica for the RF focusing/viewing experience then I guess a person is stuck with what they build. But if just to use Leica glass then the OP could get a used, LN full frame Sony mirrorless with a M adapter for less than $1K.
Maybe that would be a viable option to resume use of the lenses, even if eventually they purchase another M digital.
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Old 02-17-2020   #52
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IME, don't underestimate your ability to get used to using newer things and make them your own, whether it be moving from Leica M9 to something else, Apple Mac to Windows or what have you. A good raw file should actually look flat and "blah" right out of the camera, but if your ideal is to use images exactly as they come out of the camera with no further processing, try shooting JPEG instead.
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Old 02-17-2020   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN-XU 愛 forever View Post
M9 is a unique camera with its CCD sensor. But personally I think it's better to get an M10 instead of paying $1700 to replace a sensor..... I will keep my M9 as a backup camera with M10.


Some of us not doing this well to be able keep 3000K USD camera just as backup.
If my M-E will need another service, I still have bunch of under 200$ cameras as backup. Like 12800 ISO capable Canon and 3200 ISO capable Olympus.

BTW, from recent reported troubles I have seen, M9 might be not good solution as backup. I have seen some reports about M9 not been in use, pooled after months on the shelf and ... crapping out.
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Old 02-17-2020   #54
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Not only the M9 breaks. In December the shutter of my MP broke. Leica/Wetzlar charged me 974 Euro and 15 Cent for the repair. I am cured of the Leica virus for now.
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Old 02-17-2020   #55
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I still have my HP calculators from business school. They do keep on kicking.

That said, I maintain, all electronics are ultimately doomed.

Those are from an era where things had to work more than they had to be tiny. Fitting an entire full-frame CCD processing computer into an M size body was a lot to ask at the time, and you can tell that they weren't as adept at it as they are today.
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Old 02-17-2020   #56
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all electronics are eventually doomed due to obsolete, not systematically doomed like Leica M9. I just gave a way my Canon 20D to a friend who continuously makes great photos like I did when 20D first came out (2004)

What I am about to ask Leica is to explain why how the corrosion sensor related to the total failure of the sensors like mine.

I can live with corrosion since it doesn't affect my photos at f2.8 or bellow, but the sensor failed completely rendering the camera totally useless.
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Old 02-17-2020   #57
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I had an M9 when they first came out, yes, the colors were nice but nothing I could not replicate in minor adjustments in post. I now use an M10-P which is by far the best digital M I have ever used, great files, super quiet and the right size.

I would not touch an M9 at this point, not worth the risk and with so many great used M10's on the market, it's a no brainier, much better camera at any price.
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Old 02-17-2020   #58
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Hello KM,

M10 is one of the possibility that I would consider. However, flickr photos of M10 is hard to tell if they are heavily processed or not.

The reason I asked RFF opinion because i think RFF members don't process their photos heavily . Do you have any photos of M10 that you like to show me how the skin tone looks like?

Appreciate your help.

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I had an M9 when they first came out, yes, the colors were nice but nothing I could not replicate in minor adjustments in post. I now use an M10-P which is by far the best digital M I have ever used, great files, super quiet and the right size.

I would not touch an M9 at this point, not worth the risk and with so many great used M10's on the market, it's a no brainier, much better camera at any price.
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Old 02-17-2020   #59
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I am actively using an M8 (once repaired) and an M9 (its third sensor in place). Both cameras work fine now. I am not fooling myself to believe that either M I own will last for another ten years. Therefore, I have been scouting the market for an additional digital M or SL or SL2. I am getting more and more inclined to look for an M10. The M8 shows a vertical white line when shooting at ISO 1000 or higher. The M9 "is hanging in there".
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Old 02-17-2020   #60
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At least I still have my M3 with a M6J range finder installed to use with my 35mm cron. Still take great B&W photos. .
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Old 02-17-2020   #61
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I also have an M3 and a an M6. Very cool film cameras. I also have the 35mm Summicron.
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Old 02-17-2020   #62
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Anyone wishing to see the latest position can look here:-

https://uk.leica-camera.com/World-of...-camera-models

I looked but couldn't see anything about the minilux, sigh...



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Old 02-17-2020   #63
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As much as I complain about the quality/reliability of M Digital Leicas, the one thing they do right is the one thing I care about the most. They essentially are film cameras with digital backs, and that is really all I want. And no-one else does that.

If Cosina stepped up and made a digital Zeiss Ikon ZM, then I'd be there.
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Old 02-17-2020   #64
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Nothing wrong with putting Leica lenses on other bodies, people are doing that with Sony A7xx.
But they are so miserable to use with adapted lenses. Tried it, hated it. Feels like a computer with a lens. And they don't work well with most 50 and under glass. Most 50s are ok, but Summilux Asph etc suffer.
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Old 02-17-2020   #65
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As much as I complain about the quality/reliability of M Digital Leicas, the one thing they do right is the one thing I care about the most. They essentially are film cameras with digital backs, and that is really all I want. And no-one else does that.

If Cosina stepped up and made a digital Zeiss Ikon ZM, then I'd be there.
Cosina should bring back the R-D1 with an updated sensor. The RD-1 is closer to a film camera with a digital back than any digital Leica is.

Shawn
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Old 02-17-2020   #66
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I recently bought a used M240, partly in anticipation of the day when my M8.2 will die.

I do like CCDs and strongly considered an M9 with a replacement sensor. But so far my M8.2 is working fine, and aside from the crop factor the output would have been very similar. Based on the pricing it seems many people keep their M9 even when they upgrade.
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Old 02-17-2020   #67
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Originally Posted by xichlo View Post

This is my 2nd time my Leica camera died on me. The first was a Leica Minilux with a nice Summarit lens. It is now a paperweight or I can convert it with an HK adapter.
You can get your Minilux fixed here:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-Minil...QAAOSwhxNbhjvC
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Old 02-17-2020   #68
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But they are so miserable to use with adapted lenses. Tried it, hated it. Feels like a computer with a lens. And they don't work well with most 50 and under glass. Most 50s are ok, but Summilux Asph etc suffer.
I agree with you about feeling like a computer with a lens ; although I don`t notice any problems with my 28 Summicron asph ,50 Summicron and 90 elmarit .

Thing is I have little need for manual focus lenses these days and the Sony body ,despite as you say feeling more like a TV remote ,is therefore a good compromise given that I also use it with three Zeiss Batis AF lenses.

I have thought of an M digital body many times but ,despite the superior ergonomics and feel ,it doesn`t represent value for money for me .

It`s all about flexibility .
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Old 02-17-2020   #69
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Once setup with adapted lenses there isn't much of a reason to menu dive. Aperture on the lens, shutter on a command dial, iso mapped to a button and a button to toggle between evf and lcd. Main thing I go into the menus for is to turn on electronic first curtain or not when shooting action.

Shawn
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Old 02-19-2020   #70
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This is the price for having a slim looking camera that resembles a film camera while DSLRs look very bulky. Is this the main reason for Leica dying earlier?
Many other examples of slim body digital cameras do not have these problems. The problem is initially Leica had to outsource the critical sensor assembly design and manufacturing quality assurance to others. This affected M8 and M9 sensor assembly reliability.

It is fair to state a fundamental product specification for a digital M camera is an imperceptible difference in body thickness compared to a Film M body. Meeting this requirement was a significant technical challenge. This only compounded the difficulties in relying on third-party expertise.

Fourteen years after the M8, Leica has acquired enough in-house digital electronics experience to produce digital cameras with robust sensor assemblies. The thin bodied M240 and M10 are no different than other brands in this regard.
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Old 02-19-2020   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Trouble is we only learn about the dud ones. There might be thousands out there unaffected. Leica could do a little more to reassure us...


Regards, David
All the M8s have IR contamination issues and all the original M9 sensor cover glasses will exhibit IR filter layer corrosion. While other M8 and M9 problems (cover glass cracking, black vertical line failure and storage card incompatibilities) are less common, these types of electronic issues are rare for other brands from the same time period. The most common non-Leica failures involve mechanical shutters and lens electronics contact corrosion.
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Old 02-21-2020   #72
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I have both the M 262(stripped down M 240) and M 10 and I would get the M 10. It is more responsive, better in low light and I like having the ISO dial on the top. I would do that or get the M 9 fixed. I liked my M 10 so much I bought another one.

I went all Leica a little over 4 years ago even for my pro work. Even with the recalls on my original MM and my M-E I have had less problems than I had with my Canons.

I went Canon digital in 2005 and had Canon digital for about a decade and I had far more issues with them than I have had with my Leica's. When NATO was in town in 2112 I did some work for them and I had a complete shutter failure on one of my Canons. I also had a 1Ds III show up from CPS dead on arrival.

The reason I say this is not to rip on Canon. I think they make great cameras, but to point out all mechanical and electrical things can and probably will break down at some point. Some are lucky with A and others have luck with B. Choose your poison.

One thing Canon does really well is service. CPS, for the most part, is really outstanding.

My original MM still rocking at 8 years old (heavy use and banged around some. I am not easy on equipment) with the sensor replacement as the only issue.
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Old 02-21-2020   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn View Post
Once setup with adapted lenses there isn't much of a reason to menu dive. Aperture on the lens, shutter on a command dial, iso mapped to a button and a button to toggle between evf and lcd. Main thing I go into the menus for is to turn on electronic first curtain or not when shooting action.

Shawn
I agree Shawn …. the menu diving only starts if you have AF glass on the bodies and want to make use of the full system capabilities.
Other than that ,with manual glass , its simple.
The menu argument is a red herring .
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Old 02-21-2020   #74
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Leica NJ asked me to send them the camera body for inspection. I will do that and let you know about their estimation.
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Old 02-21-2020   #75
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Leica NJ asked me to send them the camera body for inspection. I will do that and let you know about their estimation.
Good luck!
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Old 02-21-2020   #76
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Leica NJ asked me to send them the camera body for inspection. I will do that and let you know about their estimation.
hi,

glad to see you active here on photography topic again.
vnphoto.net was my favorite forum.

cheers,
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Old 02-23-2020   #77
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hi kiemchasu,

Thank you, good to see you here too, and it is nice to see that you are still shooting great photos !!!

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hi,

glad to see you active here on photography topic again.
vnphoto.net was my favorite forum.

cheers,
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #78
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Can you folks explain to me why you put up with that quality and longevity?

Sorry, I wouldn’t think of buying any Leica with electronics.

They must not care.
Here is why for me. When film was the predominant medium, the film and chemistry were the consumable/disposable/single use components of the photography chain. When cameras became predominantly digital, this shifted to the cameras themselves being that consumable component of the chain. Want more resolution? Better ISO? No longer buy a new/improved film, you need to buy a new camera.

To me, it is wrong headed to think that an electronic system where you effectively pay nothing for individual photos should or will last indefinitely. You're using it up every time you press the shutter button.

Taking film photos, for me, costs about $AU0.3 per frame, once I consider film, chemistry etc. That's without my time to develop the film, which I need to do to see what I have. I take about 10,000 frames a year, of which a majority are for my work as a scientist. So if my Leica digital lasts 3.5 years I am already ahead financially on a $AU10K camera. Over the last 5 years I have got well ahead on my Typ246 and I get further ahead the more I use it. When I get an M10M the same will apply, and I plan to use it even harder.

Leica cares enough to design and build a camera that has what no other manufacturer delivers - a small camera with a monochrome digital sensor, simple controls and menus, for which there is really excellent glass available.

People say 'why would you?' I say "why wouldn't I?'

Marty
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #79
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Remember when Leica advertised their digital M as lifetime cameras?
So much for that.

I’ve seen M240s at the $2k mark and they are rock solid. M10 is now $4500 used even though they are selling at $7200 new. The M-E is about $4k new right now. This is the version based on the 240.
They meant the lifetime of the camera . . .
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #80
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I am actively using an M8 (once repaired) and an M9 (its third sensor in place). Both cameras work fine now. I am not fooling myself to believe that either M I own will last for another ten years. Therefore, I have been scouting the market for an additional digital M or SL or SL2. I am getting more and more inclined to look for an M10. The M8 shows a vertical white line when shooting at ISO 1000 or higher. The M9 "is hanging in there".
Didn't you send the M8 in for vertical line issue in the last year or so and now the line has returned. $$$$$

I would consider Sony body like used A7II or A7RII for Leica glass and so many other fun options. The Leica bodies are an expensive gamble that I'm no longer willing to take. Been there, done that!
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