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120 / 220 film RF's 120 / 220 format rangefinders including Fuji, Koni-Omega, Mamiya Press, Linhof 6x7/6x9 cameras, Mamiya 6/7 among others, but excluding the 120 folders and the Voigtlander 667 cameras that have their own forums.

View Poll Results: Your wishes :: Bessa IV - 6x9 or 6x12 - and what lens?
6x9 - 110 mm 36 14.63%
6x9 - 80 mm 70 28.46%
6x9 - 50 mm 54 21.95%
6x9 - different (please share) 2 0.81%
6x12 - 120 mm 9 3.66%
6x12 - 85 mm 29 11.79%
6x12 - 65 mm 42 17.07%
6x12 - different (please share) 4 1.63%
Voters: 246. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-19-2012   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matus View Post
It's been a long time since I have started this wishful thinking thread. And I still think that 6x12 folding camera would be great to have.

All better 6x12 that are out there (Linhof, Horseman) are big, heavy, bulky and cost 2500+ with one lens and have no rangefinder.
There are the DAYI cameras for 6x12 for around 600 minus a lens, no range finder, but does have ground glass if scale focusing is not good enough. I expect they could put one together for you with lens for about 1000. They also have a shift ability which may come in handy depending on what you're shooting.
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Old 01-27-2013   #42
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Did I already vote on this?

Oh my, a Bessa IV 6x9 with a 50mm lens? I would basically sell my kidney for one of those. You never know with Voigtlander, eh?

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Old 02-17-2013   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louisb View Post
... Oh my, a Bessa IV 6x9 with a 50mm lens? I would basically sell my kidney for one of those. You never know with Voigtlander, eh?

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Old 02-17-2013   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Cruz View Post
It seems a 6x9 with 65mm lens might satisfy most of us.
At the other end of the cost scale, I have experimented with this, which with a 65mm (non-Super-)Angulon was on the limit before the length-wise mounted fold-down 'door' of the 6x9 would have caused vignetting (and by the way you wouldn't be able to close the door on a Super Angulon class lens anyway) .

Last edited by citizen99 : 02-17-2013 at 03:39. Reason: Generalisation
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Old 02-17-2013   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FT2 View Post
... Most old 120 folders except the Makinas are worthless for enlargement: they were meant for contact printing. Hence the destruction of resolution by front cell focusing and lack of film flatness. Finding a 6x9 plate camera with a roll adapter is a solution out, but most lack rangefinders.
If by 'most' you mean what were family snapshot market cameras. Some other old ones can still be pretty good, I've had nice 6"x9" prints from the old Bessa Rangefinder, and the scanned files still look good blown up even more on the PC monitor screen .
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Old 02-17-2013   #46
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So, I am starting to wonder ... where is the Bessa IV?

But seriously - It would be so great to have an RF coupled 6x12 with SOME decent lens and AE ...
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Old 02-17-2013   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen99 View Post
If by 'most' you mean what were family snapshot market cameras. Some other old ones can still be pretty good, I've had nice 6"x9" prints from the old Bessa Rangefinder, and the scanned files still look good blown up even more on the PC monitor screen .
Completely agree, I came across this thread here:

http://forum.mflenses.com/bessa-ii-c...00-t41488.html

Using a "cheap" scanner, I think the Bessa II shows buckets of resolution.
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Old 02-17-2013   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen99 View Post
If by 'most' you mean what were family snapshot market cameras. Some other old ones can still be pretty good, I've had nice 6"x9" prints from the old Bessa Rangefinder, and the scanned files still look good blown up even more on the PC monitor screen .
Attila's pictures of Budapest are awesome. For a different sort of scene, this page starts in the middle of a set from my Bessa Rangefinder, which is the 'ancestor' of the Bessa II. This one has the Heliar, it also came with the Skopar and Helomar which are also excellent lenses .
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Old 02-17-2013   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
As Frank noted, in 6x12 there's the Linhof; and also the Horseman, Dayi, Gaoersi and Fotoman offerings, at various quality, capability and price levels. And as nice as it is, the GSW690 will not give me the perspective that a 65mm lens on a 6x12 will give.

So in the meantime it's back to making do with a wide lens on the dSLR, and cropping to 2:1. And dreaming of doing this with film.

But a 50mm of a Fuji 6X9 or a 47mm on a Horseman 6X12 are available, and both give wider and taller views.

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Old 02-17-2013   #50
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This thread is interesting since it pretty much is filled with people wishing for something that is similar to what Lomography created with their Belair X 6-12 recently. I just suspect that the quality folks here are looking for is aimed a bit higher then the Belair can produce.

But, it pretty much does what this thread discuses... a folding 6x9 and 6x12 camera with 58mm and 90mm lenses with optional (overpriced) glass lenses for better image quality, built in metering and aperture priority shooting.

Since I have one of the Belairs already, this "Bessa IV" would have to be really spectacular for me to take interest at an affordable price point.

But I'd certainly be interested... especially if it would be capable of rendering quality via the lens out to 12" wide without the blur/focus falloff the Belair's plastic lenses has.

I'd say for my vote, I'd say I'd like to see it do both, but 6x12 would be my preference. And I'd like to see a lens that "works" well for realistic wide shots. It feels to me like the 90mm on the Belair is the closest to that for that camera but I do like the idea of a wider one that doesn't look stretched or distorted, so maybe the 65mm for this thread's camera would be nice.

I'd also like it to have more control over aperture and shutter speeds then the Belair has. f/8 and f/11 just are not enough, and 1/500th is not fast enough in bright sunlight even with 50 or 100 film here in oklahoma during bright days.

Mmmmm wide shots... ::drool::
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Old 02-17-2013   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen99 View Post
At the other end of the cost scale, I have experimented with this, which with a 65mm (non-Super-)Angulon was on the limit before the length-wise mounted fold-down 'door' of the 6x9 would have caused vignetting (and by the way you wouldn't be able to close the door on a Super Angulon class lens anyway) .
I mentioned this because it brings out some of the design constraints on a 'Bessa format heritage' wide angle folder. For an ultra-wide 6x9 or a 6x12, a single folding door would not be practicable; it might be worth looking at a double 'barn door' layout like the Voigtlander Vitessa. But there would still be this issue to consider - how compact can one make a 'modern-grade' wide angle lens ?

So as pointed out just above,
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienmeatsack View Post
This thread is interesting since it pretty much is filled with people wishing for something that is similar to what Lomography created with their Belair X 6-12 recently. I just suspect that the quality folks here are looking for is aimed a bit higher then the Belair can produce.
...
we would be likely to be looking at a 'professional grade' strut camera But then, setting aside for a moment the question of brand name ownership, it would make more sense to call it a Makina .
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Old 04-14-2013   #52
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Any chance of a 4x5, with range finder and a wideish lens (127mm), with range finder and meter. Could always slap on a 6x12, 6x9 back. People are buying old polaroid conversions which are quite large. Would not be a big seller though, or would people be tempted?
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Old 04-14-2013   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kram View Post
Any chance of a 4x5, with range finder and a wideish lens (127mm), with range finder and meter. Could always slap on a 6x12, 6x9 back. People are buying old polaroid conversions which are quite large. Would not be a big seller though, or would people be tempted?
U can already do that w/ a rf 4x5 like linhof, crown or speed graphic, etc. using a 6z12 multi format roll film back. But just like the Polaroid versions a big weight penalty compared to the Bessa. Then there is also the Brooke's veriwide or the linhof version.

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Old 04-16-2013   #54
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Not quite. No meter, no viewfinder, fairly heavy, lots of movements, changable lens. Thinking more like a big version of the bessa 3. We can dream.
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Old 04-16-2013   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kram View Post
Not quite. No meter, no viewfinder, fairly heavy, lots of movements, changable lens. Thinking more like a big version of the bessa 3. We can dream.
Linhof and graphic had viewfinder and interchangeable lenses, plus viewfinder masks for the lenses they supported. The Linhof had dedicated rf cams ground specifically for the lenses as well as opposed to the graphic which need to be re-adjusted for lens used.

Meter or shutter automation in that type of camera was never in the cards given the market segment it was designed for.

A beefed up Bessa in that form factor would be very heavy as well. So a dedicated big format (4x5) w/ roll film back option, fixed focal length, shutter automation camera is what u are dreaming of. Not as heavy as what already exist biggest diff is shutter automation or a built in meter then..

I could be wrong, but maybe a small market for it. I think watching how the travel wide 4x5 does maybe an indication of potential of such a camera.

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Old 04-19-2013   #56
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[quote][So a dedicated big format (4x5) w/ roll film back option, fixed focal length, shutter automation camera is what u are dreaming of. Not as heavy as what already exist biggest diff is shutter automation or a built in meter then..

I could be wrong, but maybe a small market for it. I think watching how the travel wide 4x5 does maybe an indication of potential of such a camera.
/QUOTE] That's it! It would still weigh 1.5 -2kg, but would be more compact. Imagine the Bessa 3 up sized with a 4x5 back. Could have a bit of shift, but to keep it good quality and compact adding slight tilt/swing etc. would defeat the object of a light(ish) fold-able 4x5. I normally only take 3-4 dark slides out with me at anyone time, not sure about othe people.
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Old 04-19-2013   #57
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6 x 9 wide i.e. 50mm
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Old 06-13-2013   #58
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If thd lens were a little faster, I think they would have a more sort after product. A f2.8 80-110mm lens would make it more attractive than the oder cameras. A 50mm f4 would be fastcor this format. As cosina make fast lens for 35mm, it should be do able. My reasoning, secondhand Makina 67 (f2.8) sell for more than the Bessa iii with its f3.5 lens. A 6x9 should be able to be accommodated in the same body as the Bessa iii, which would be a cost saving for cosina.
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Old 10-02-2013   #59
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I've been wondering... Do we have any reason to believe that Fuji might actually design and manufacture a follow-up to the GF670 - a GF690 or a Bessa IV? Or are we just hoping and dreaming? Has anyone actually heard anything? Are there rumors or comments from the company?
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Old 10-02-2013   #60
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I have not heard anything directly or indirectly and frankly speaking consider such a possibility to be very low. If the GF670 is priced around 2000, a GF690 or even GF612 would probably be around 3000 and at that point there would probably be too few buyers. Just a guess of mine.

Still - I would LOVE a 6x12 flooding camera with RF and AE with say 80/4 lens. In particular after I got XPAN.
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Old 02-22-2014   #61
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A 6x9 should be quite simple to do with most ot the exisiting parts. There is room in the exisiting body for a 6x9 negative. A classical length would be 90mm or 65mm wide angle. What would sell it is a fast(ish) aperature. F2.8 for the 90mm or f4 for the 65mm.
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Old 10-11-2014   #62
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I'd go for a 6x12 with something around 75mm.

6x9 is too well covered by the Fuji's and others. And a Fuji G617 is really a handfull, both as a camera and as area to fill with something interesting. A 6x12 would have less competition while at the same time not be too large a camera.

And I agree with others: don't make it folding. It's a complication that doesn't add anything. Whatever you do with it, this is going to be a large(ish) camera. If you go for something like 6x12 better wring the last possible drop of performance out of it. You are going to loose some at scantime anyway.
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Old 10-29-2014   #63
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I would like a 669! A camera that shoots 6x6 and 6x9.
The 667 is a great camera (6x6 and 6x7) but a 669 would be even better...
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Old 01-19-2015   #64
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Now the 667 is discontinued, time for a 6x9. Use as many parts from existing cameras to keep production costs down but have a nice fast lens f2.8/ f2.4 so peopl who wants speed, shallow focus will up grade ( and ship other secondhand 6x6/6x7 f2.8 options). Also close focus under 1m. I have found the 90cm cfd of the 667 more useful than I originally thought.
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I want a normal lens
Old 04-29-2015   #65
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I want a normal lens

Great idea to think about a new folding camera or a 6x9 camera in general. The Fuji 612/617 already exists so it has to be 6x9 for me. I'm a brand new shooter with a 6x9 Moskva 4 f4,5/110mm and fascinated by the format.

The majority of people want a wide lens, I seem to be lonely here wanting a NORMAL lens and in 6x9 that would be a 127mm. Even 110mm is too wide for me, the current 80mm "winner" in the poll is rediculously wide! Perhaps most people shoot landscapes but for beautiful play with boquet and non-distorted perpective you need a longer lens. And a normal lens on fixed lens cameras is something that does not exist, that would be something new!

So like with the existing 6x7 Fuji 667/Bessa III we need two versions: One longer than or at least 110mm, for example a 127mm like the existing 4,7/127mm Rodenstock on the Polaroid and a 75mm for the landscape people.

6x8 would also be a beautiful compromise format, a relative to 9x12 and not as square as 6x7, which is a format that does not know if it wants to be square or wide. 6x8 sadly exists again only as wide angle Fujis with 90mm or heavy RB67s, not to mention the 4,2kg Fuji GX680.

So this is my opinion voting for a normal lens approach :-)
I won't pay 2000/$ for a wide angle 6x9 but stay with the Moskva.
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Old 05-10-2015   #66
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Some time has passed ... and I would still go for a 6x12 ... with whatever focal length Fuji would be able to offer. It would be an excellent addition to a Rolleiflex (I have and enjoy). It would also make a great landscape camera for our upcoming trip to Norway ...
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Old 05-12-2015   #67
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If you're going to have a 6x12, you're going to have a lens that can cover 4x5 with it's image circle. You might as well use that.

Why have a camera only shoot 6x12 when you can shoot 4x5?

I'd like to see a digital back for 4x5. It would offer a whole new world of creativity for people who shoot video.
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Old 06-21-2015   #68
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I don't know what to do with 6x12 other than scanning it. Unless you make a really big print out of it, I think it's an awkward ratio.

I like 6x9, sadly I don't have a 6x9 mask for my enlarger.

As for the lens, I don't know if it's even technically possible, but a relatively fast zoom (a'la Fuji 645 ZI) would be nice. Certainly with the lens technology we have now, image quality is not going to be a problem especially not for 6x9 film size.
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Old 06-21-2015   #69
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6x12 is probably the largest readily enlargeable roll format - as it will fit in 4x5 enlargers.

I often think of 612 as a diptych of 6x6 frames.
Some don't consider 6x12 to be panoramic - just look at the APUG forum categories.
However I like it and bounced back into the format after a long gap by picking up a used Linhof 612.

The 6x12 /6x9 advantage over 4x5 is step up time - the Linhof 612 with 135mm lens is just a large point and shoot . Not so good for street photography though - the my camera is larger than yours scenario, attracts too much attention.

It seems unlikely now that there would ever be a Voigtlander/Bessa 6x9 or 6x12 camera - but I would like to see someone like Chamonix make an affordable lightweight wooden 6x9/6x12 Technika/Press field camera that is compact and can be scale focused ; with OVF making it useable handheld.
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