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Business / Philosophy of Photography Taking pics is one thing, but understanding why we take them, what they mean, what they are best used for, how they effect our reality -- all of these and more are important issues of the Philosophy of Photography. One of the best authors on the subject is Susan Sontag in her book "On Photography."

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Old 1 Week Ago   #161
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
It seems there are a lot of people on this forum who are incapable of opening their minds to other people's ideas, and others who are incapable of having a debate without resorting to personal insults, so I'll leave you to it.

By the way, here's the 'total BS' report: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...l-1812776.html
So people who buy a lot of music should be allowed to steal a lot as well? That seems a little ludicrous. Where else would that be allowed? The local record store? I bought 30 albums so I am just going to steal 7 more as a bonus. But officer, I bought 30 of them, so how could what I did possibly be wrong?

I would also note that the article was written in 2009 - nine years ago - and since then, because the download model was untenable due in large part to piracy, internet music distribution has now moved to streaming.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #162
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It seems there are a lot of people on this forum who are incapable of opening their minds to other people's ideas, and others who are incapable of having a debate without resorting to personal insults, so I'll leave you to it. . . .
Well, there's at least one who is incapable of opening his mind to the idea of things like "laws". And indeed "common decency".

He sees rational arguments as "personal insults".

Cheers,

R.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #163
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No, I'm saying it's hypocritical to expect to be able to use someone's image for free, make money from it, not share that money with the subject THEN AT THE SAME TIME get bent out of shape if someone uses that image without your consent ...............
Once again I ask, do you realize your logic implies that anyone is free to use just about any photograph that has ever been published on the web or in any book or magazine? Are you implying that if you paid the subject, then others would be immoral to then reuse it for their own purposes? Do I have greater intellectual property rights because I make no money from my published photography?

I believe you are grasping at straws trying to justify your illogical comments and unsustainable dialogue.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #164
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Well, there's at least one who is incapable of opening his mind to the idea of things like "laws". And indeed "common decency".

He sees rational arguments as "personal insults".

Cheers,

R.
And, somehow appropriately, thinks creative ideas are worthless.... yet names himself after a brand, the ultimate slave to materialism.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #165
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Been thinking about shaing, imo, bags of sweets, magnums of wine and chocolate cakes are designed for sharing; so you don't have to be asked but can just help yourself?

Regards, David
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Old 1 Week Ago   #166
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Well, there's at least one who is incapable of opening his mind to the idea of things like "laws". And indeed "common decency".
Couldn't have said it better.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #167
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Been thinking about sharing, imo, bags of sweets, magnums of wine and chocolate cakes are designed for sharing; so you don't have to be asked but can just help yourself?

Regards, David
Dear David,

An elegant analogy!

Cheers,

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Old 1 Week Ago   #168
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... and from Helen Oster (Adorama) a few hours ago on APUG:


"My understanding is that everything ever submitted by that author has been removed......."

"As I noted earlier, I've been advised that all the articles from the author have already been removed"


Doesn't seem to be the simple mistake that others have insisted occurred.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #169
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Originally Posted by aizan View Post
we all like to kick a dog while he's down, but this is getting to be an example of toxic fandom.
I cannot see any *toxic fandom* here, well, to be honest: no *fandom* at all. Can somewhere -- anywhere -- be discovered someone -- anyone -- who would have been Mr. Resnick's *fan* (except his own customers, perhaps)?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #170
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Originally Posted by Paul T. View Post
Another important lesson for creatives:

Don't waste time when you could be creating stuff, arguing with people who advocate stealing. Just do the thing.

Deadlines call. Often work is a blessed release. Fujilove, have fun creating your code.
Thanks Paul, I always do.

For decades I've worked simultaneously as a designer and developer, and having had a foot in both camps, I can assure you that programming is every bit as creative and rewarding as the more traditional creative industries. In fact, some of the most creative people I've ever met have been programmers working for big Silicon Valley companies. Their creative and problem-solving skills were simply epic.

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And, somehow appropriately, thinks creative ideas are worthless.... yet names himself after a brand, the ultimate slave to materialism.
I had to laugh out loud at this comment!

You're actually calling me a 'slave to materialism', based not on what you know about me - because you know zero - but on my username. Wow!

I value my health, my family and friends, my lovely dog, the beautiful place where we live in the country. I value the incredible light we get through the valley in the evening which lights the tops of the trees like nothing I've seen before. I value falling to sleep to the sound of barn owls and waking up listening to the woodpecker outside. I value watching herds of deer from my bedroom window as they wander up the river bank. I value my time and my freedom to do the hobbies I enjoy, including photography. I value being able to step outside my door and go for a run for an hour and not see a car or another soul, if I so choose....just the countryside teeming with wildlife. I value being able to work from home on my terms and having an office which overlooks the garden where I can watch the birds come and go on the feeders all day. I value having a house large enough that I'm able to have my own darkroom.

We own two cars, and both are old and tatty, with almost a third of a million miles between them. I have no interest in replacing them, but if I did it would most likely be with a second or third hand car. I love listening to music, particularly our vinyl collection, the majority of which we purchased from eBay for pennies many years ago. I play them on a second-hand turntable that I bought ten years ago and cost £50 from eBay. I don't wear or even own a watch, let alone a fancy one. I can't remember the last time I bought shoes, and I think the woolen jumper I received at Christmas is the only new item of clothes I had all year. I don't watch TV and couldn't if I wanted to as there's no aerial on the roof. I use very expensive Apple computers and other hardware for work, but I upgrade very infrequently, and have been using my current equipment for three years. I used my previous computer for six years, and still run it as a testing machine.

I own a small collection of old film cameras and love them dearly. I don't know how much they're all worth, but I'd guess it would be less than the price of one high-end modern digital camera, without lens. I'm not a collector. Most, if not all, are continually loaded with film and used at every opportunity. I have no interest in digital cameras or other gadgets.

Many years ago I walked away from a stressful career and more than half my salary to concentrate on a select few clients that I choose to work with. It has given me time through the day to enjoy life, time to cook bread and make my own beer, time to walk my dog properly, time to cook etc.

As a family we spend the vast majority of our money on our mortgage and household bills so we can live in such a beautiful place.

For the record, my username was literally born out of love. When I created my account here I had an X100 camera which I really enjoyed using, apart from the fact it was digital. I'd never used a rangefinder before, and that camera lead me to pick up a Leica M3, and later an M2. I loved that little Fuji both for what it was, but more importantly for how it introduced me to a style of camera which I enjoy using, and ultimately how it lead me to moving back to film photography.

So, feel free to continue to make up lies about me. These are my final contributions to this forum, so I won't complain.

I wish you all the best in your creative endeavours.

J
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Old 1 Week Ago   #171
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Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
So: whenever I have a conversation with anyone...
I was going to reply to your earlier comment where you suggested I should leave the forum.

Anyhow, this actually is my final contribution to the forum. I'm leaving partly because of the vindictiveness and lack of understanding, which has become too tiring to deal with, and partly because there are actually much better forums out there for people who only shoot film and take most of their photographs with SLR cameras.

However the main reason is that, just like you, I'm also caring for someone with cancer and they deserve my time and attention much more than a bunch of strangers on an Internet forum.

I wish you all the best, and Frances a full, speedy and comfortable recovery.

J
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Old 1 Week Ago   #172
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Originally Posted by Bob Michaels View Post
First amendment to the US Constitution
And decades of trial law precedence.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #173
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
So, feel free to continue to make up lies about me...

J
Firstly, I was indeed upset by your high-handed and frankly offensive attitude to creative people. It's hard making a living that way - we get ripped off all the time, photographers today are often being offered the page rates that were standard a decade ago, and recently I was offered a word-rate... that was the one I set on a magazine I launched 25 years ago. Yes, 25. There are many people far more talented and creative than me who would suffer in the world you want.

Your repeated statements that you had experience as a coder and this gave you a special understanding were also of marginal relevance - this is why I addressed it . Please don't take me as demeaning your profession - only its relevance to this discussion. We all have to make a living in whatever way, your profession demands skills I don't have, and who knows how I'll be making a living in a decade.

So... I fundamentally disagree with you, as you do me. None of my posts have been removed, and I hope never to be snide .

Please understand I dislike your ideas, not you, and please don't leave the forum because we disagree. This is only the internet. I too have close friends battling the big C, and I am sorry that this has upset you. Put me on ignore, whatever, shake your fist at the screen when you see my handle, continue to believe I am an arse, but please please please come back to the forum, and continue having fun with your X100.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #174
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I've been following this thread and thought I'd comment. I'm recounting a story I told here before, because it involves young photography students and their view on intellectual property.

In my work environment, I share space with a good friend and photographer. His work is almost all studio based. Mine is mostly location based. He lectures at one of the big, famous, expensive Art schools in our city.

His students are in the studio about twice a month. I never know when they will be around. One of my first encounters with these Junior-senior year college kids was when I was doing some work on the building. They paid little attention to me. They thought I might have been the janitor. Fine with me.. seriously.

One gallery that holds my work has some on their website. These kids likely know the names and work of every photographer in town. My studio mate often gave these kids the run of the studio when visiting. Our office has original work hanging... stuff by Jim Marshall, Edward Weston and HCB and others. So, the students were allowed in the office unsupervised. My desk often has prints, old Kodachromes, etc. in plain sight. These kids made the connection to the gallery's web photos (they went through my desk) and the stuff at my desk. Then they came looking for me. My pal pointed out their "janitor". I was approached by several of them in a group. They weren't particularly friendly.

One young women did the talking. She said, we've been using your work for our school projects (small web grabs) and, we need bigger files. It took me a minute to process this. I said, you want bigger files of my photos for your projects.. you're photo students, shouldn't you be making your own photos? She said, yours are better, and we need them.. you have to give them to us. I told her that I simply shared space in the studio, and had no part in her education. It was my friend who was lecturing, not me. She said, it didn't matter, and that they needed the large files for their education and by not providing them, I was denying her part of her education.

What they were doing with lifted work was, running it through PS, making slight changes and then claiming it as their original work.

Our conversation ended with the following from this student (verbatim, I won't forget it): "You're old, you don't get it. Everything is free now. Get a clue!"

I've had all kinds of imagery lifted over the years, but the attitude of these young people toward intellectual property seems the norm in many places now. I do my best to keep my work off the web.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #175
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Sometimes the fun and excitement here can be overwhelming.

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Old 5 Days Ago   #176
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Old 5 Days Ago   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKR View Post
Our conversation ended with the following from this student (verbatim, I won't forget it): "You're old, you don't get it. Everything is free now. Get a clue!"
Too bad her parents weren't there to hear that... I bet they're paying the bills!
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Old 5 Days Ago   #178
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"He lectures at one of the big, famous, expensive Art schools in our city."

I think the cirriculum needs changing a little...

Certain concerpts about making money from other people's efforts need to be included or emphassised and a bit about the legal side of things, f'intance.

Talking of that, I thought that in the USA you could get a minimum of US$750 for copyright theft but it's some time since I had a punch up with Americans scanning my stuff and selling it on.

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Old 5 Days Ago   #179
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This preening, brazen appropriation of other people's hard work is rife: images, music, literature.

Colleges and universities are fighting an uphill the battle with students who plagiarise - steal - or employ and pay for ‘exam mills’ complete course work or theses without lifting a finger themselves.

A couple of examples; there are plenty of others:

https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2013...arism-problem/

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/06/w...ism/index.html
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Old 5 Days Ago   #180
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This has been a very fruitful and intense discussion; it also is sad to see some views that people have towards the theft of other people's images.

It does look like Adorama has parted ways with Resnick, which is upsetting for him, but wholly his own doing. If you're incapable of doing your job, you do not deserve to have that job. https://www.adorama.com/alc/article_.../mason-resnick
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Old 4 Days Ago   #181
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Originally Posted by Hogarth Ferguson View Post
...it also is sad to see some views that people have towards the theft of other people's images.
What I also find sad, Hogarth, is the wilful and flagrant disregard, both in word and deed, of the law by some. Whether they like it or not, the internet is governed by law.

As for Mason Resnick, I couldn't agree more.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #182
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What I also find sad, Hogarth, is the wilful and flagrant disregard, both in word and deed, of the law by some. Whether they like it or not, the internet is governed by law.

As for Mason Resnick, I couldn't agree more.

It was a very interesting discussion to have, of course. I've had the same one on reddit, and I thought I would find people agreeing that the download or use of an image was wrong. We are all creators. However, it seemed you had more people on the "Don't want your image stolen, don't share it" camp, or the "it is just them saying they like it by using it"

Taking an image, to use for a desktop background or for use in an advert are not that different, people need to ask permission and come to terms.

I am pretty shocked that people here take Resnick's account at face value, even in light of obvious inaccuracies.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #183
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I am pretty shocked that people here take Resnick's account at face value, even in light of obvious inaccuracies.
Apparently Adorama finally came to its senses and, after first believing and defending his "it was an accident" excuse, has now parted ways with him.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
"He lectures at one of the big, famous, expensive Art schools in our city."

I think the cirriculum needs changing a little...

Certain concerpts about making money from other people's efforts need to be included or emphassised and a bit about the legal side of things, f'intance.

Talking of that, I thought that in the USA you could get a minimum of US$750 for copyright theft but it's some time since I had a punch up with Americans scanning my stuff and selling it on.

Regards, David
David; I was told by one of these students, that it's possible to get a BFA in Photography, from this "University", without ever taking a single picture. There are enough PhotoShop classes to qualify for a photography major. He told me that image theft within the class (students) is rampant. He said, that there were a handful of kids with real talent, and the others ripped them off constantly. He said, the staff was aware that this was happening and did nothing.

It's all about those tuition checks from mom and dad .. and little else, it seems.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #185
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Too bad her parents weren't there to hear that... I bet they're paying the bills!
Yeah, it seems an attitude that many young people have these days. The other phrase I hear, one that was used over and over, by these kids is/was "..you have to!". They are so used to being accommodated that, they don't know what to do when facing a refusal. This girl just got really angry. She actually told me earlier that .. "you owe us". They are taught this stuff. I grew up never thinking that anyone, including my parents, owed me anything. It's a huge difference in generational attitude. Also, I have to note, there are some really hard working and talented students in this mix of kids. They don't seem to share the attitude. The School's department head told me that, those (hard workers with talent) students were about 6% of the current average class of more than 100.

He also said, "We are babysitting the children of the rich".
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Old 4 Days Ago   #186
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I was told by one of these students, that it's possible to get a BFA in Photography, from this "University", without ever taking a single picture.
And their goal upon graduation is what?
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Old 4 Days Ago   #187
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And their goal upon graduation?
I was on my way outa here.. you caught me.

Well, I don't know. My pal has had two of the 6% work for him as assistants. I knew one of them pretty well. A truly nice and talented kid. His parents are both very successful southern California architects. He was a hard worker. He got around town on a bicycle. The new one is pretty quiet. He also seems nice. He's a very skilled PhotoShop hand. He drives a BMW. I think his parents paid for it.. just my guess.

I don't talk to these kids. Some other photographers in town refuse to interview them. One told me he was floored by the demanding attitudes of the ones he spoke with.

There are 3 big art schools in our city. The local junior college also has a photography program. Those JC kids are taught studio lighting, a real plus for assistant work.

They all want photography jobs. Mostly, beginning as photo assistants.

Edit
In thinking about those two assistants (you got me thinking), rating them in creativity, they are both hard workers, the first kid would get a 9-10 out of 10. The second one, the BMW kid, gets a 5. I think he's a copier .. not an image thief, but a recipe user. I think he would be afraid to try something new. Challenge himself. Could be wrong.. that would be good.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #188
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They all want photography jobs. Mostly, beginning as photo assistants.

Edit
In thinking about those two assistants (you got me thinking), rating them in creativity, they are both hard workers, the first kid would get a 9-10 out of 10. The second one, the BMW kid, gets a 5. I think he's a copier .. not an image thief, but a recipe user. I think he would be afraid to try something new. Challenge himself. Could be wrong.. that would be good.
Does anyone else find it bizarre? They think that everything should be had for free, yet they want jobs in the industry? Where do they think their paycheque is going to come from? All the free stuff they give away?
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Old 4 Days Ago   #189
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Edit
In thinking about those two assistants (you got me thinking), rating them in creativity, they are both hard workers, the first kid would get a 9-10 out of 10. The second one, the BMW kid, gets a 5. I think he's a copier .. not an image thief, but a recipe user. I think he would be afraid to try something new. Challenge himself. Could be wrong.. that would be good.
In my experience teaching at a state college for 15 years even this kind of criticism is no longer acceptable in academia, and there is part of the problem.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #190
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Does anyone else find it bizarre? They think that everything should be had for free, yet they want jobs in the industry? Where do they think their paycheque is going to come from? All the free stuff they give away?

If we're shifting into a discussion around the fact that the younger generation are freeloaders, we should at least acknowledge the fact that their parents' generation spent all the money and loaded them with debt.

In the UK, kids are being loaded with £50k of debt for an education, imposed on them by people who had the same for free.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #191
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If we're shifting into a discussion around the fact that the younger generation are freeloaders, we should at least acknowledge the fact that their parents' generation spent all the money and loaded them with debt.

In the UK, kids are being loaded with £50k of debt for an education, imposed on them by people who had the same for free.
Dear Paul,

Did we "spend all the money" though? Or did we (and everyone else) vote on balance for unrealistically low taxes? Note "on balance" because quite a lot of us made the fairly simple connection between taxes and public goods.

Again, did "we" all support the frankly risible idea of keeping kids in compulsory education until the age of 18? It's great them as wants it, but many don't, and won't benefit anyway (I taught for a few years, and I've seen 'em)

Or the idea that 50% of the population should go to university? The present system strikes me as far more "elitist" than in 1969, when I went to university -- and a damn' sight more depressing, too, with the vast debt.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 4 Days Ago   #192
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In my experience teaching at a state college for 15 years even this kind of criticism is no longer acceptable in academia, and there is part of the problem.
As a potential employer, I have a bit more freedom, for now. Things could change as per local politics, i guess. Little would surprise me these days.

Being smart, creative and willing to work hard, makes you a target in some academic environments. In a Physics class, you're a perfect lab partner. In an art class, you make some classmates look bad.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #193
Bille
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Originally Posted by Faintandfuzzy View Post
As such, I can only recommend people on our Film FB page move elsewhere for there purchases
Not defending Adorama and whatever they do but I have a feeling they won´t panic when the remaining five film photographers start buying their 2 rolls a month somewhere else...
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Old 3 Days Ago   #194
jsrockit
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Our conversation ended with the following from this student (verbatim, I won't forget it): "You're old, you don't get it. Everything is free now. Get a clue!"
Oh, once university is over...they will get a clue as well. ... Not many people make it the appropriation game that are this clueless.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #195
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Oh, once university is over...they will get a clue as well. ... Not many people make it the appropriation game that are this clueless.
Most of these kids, the ones who want work, can be found at the numerous Starbucks, making or serving drinks. I don't frequent Starbucks but, I've heard reports from the working photo assistants. I found most of these kids to be pretty angry.

With my pal's old assistant, I found we could talk about a lot of subjects, the many years separating our ages wasn't apparent. On many things (mostly the painters we liked) we didn't agree, but I always enjoyed our conversations. I hope that kid does well. He's very talented and willing to stick his neck out, creatively.

I didn't have a fancy education. Most of the photographers I know didn't. But, I have two friends who worked for Penn and one who worked for Avedon. That's about the best photo schooling possible. Very few qualified for entrance. People who have worked for those friends are very lucky.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #196
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I didn't have a fancy education. Most of the photographers I know didn't. But, I have two friends who worked for Penn and one who worked for Avedon. That's about the best photo schooling possible. Very few qualified for entrance. People who have worked for those friends are very lucky.
Photography is not my field professionally, but in the field that I'm in (experimental physics) education is pretty much meaningless except for two things; it shows you can tackle a large project (PhD) and that you can stick with something for a few years. It's just a barrier to entry (you must have a PhD to apply for the job). Other than that, what you really want is what can't be assessed and isn't taught. I want post-docs to be creative, have good spatial perception, and be hard working. Everything else can be learnt on the job pretty easily.

So my question is, do aspiring photographers need a degree to be an assistant for one of the big photographers, or is it more of a "who you know" type scenario? When you talk about being "qualified for entrance" are you talking about formal qualifications, or more informal qualifications (like being hard working and willing to learn, not being a jerk, etc.)?
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Old 3 Days Ago   #197
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I don't know whether this quote is accurate or not but apparently Socrates said this:

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

Seems some things never change. For instance, I, a 29-year-old millennial, look upon Generation Z in the same baleful way my own generation is viewed by its predecessors. Get off my lawn.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #198
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Originally Posted by michaelwj View Post
Photography is not my field professionally, but in the field that I'm in (experimental physics) education is pretty much meaningless except for two things; it shows you can tackle a large project (PhD) and that you can stick with something for a few years. It's just a barrier to entry (you must have a PhD to apply for the job). Other than that, what you really want is what can't be assessed and isn't taught. I want post-docs to be creative, have good spatial perception, and be hard working. Everything else can be learnt on the job pretty easily.

So my question is, do aspiring photographers need a degree to be an assistant for one of the big photographers, or is it more of a "who you know" type scenario? When you talk about being "qualified for entrance" are you talking about formal qualifications, or more informal qualifications (like being hard working and willing to learn, not being a jerk, etc.)?
The portfolio is the credential.

Many portfolios are kept under wraps, only to be shown to prospective clients. Much work is on websites but, many of us deliver samples on a thumb drive avoiding the web.

Any student (anyone) photographer looking for a job will have a portfolio and resume.

The photos in a portfolio will tell the story of the photographer's creative ability and technical skill. The resume will outline previous work experience. Formal schooling isn't necessary. It's all in the eye. If I was going to school with the idea of being a photographer today, I would major in math (so I could get a job out of school) and minor in Art History and languages.

Photo assistants come in levels that have to do with their technical skill and experience. Many photographers (people like Penn) have several assistants. The tiered progression would be: Studio Manager, 1st assistant, and those below .. some may be full time employees or contract hires. Some of the best and most expensive assistants are contract hires. They like variety and often have specialized skills.

I can tell you about me.. I know that material best.

I had a couple of photo classes in college. I was an unsatisfied science student. I built a portfolio over several years. I didn't have much camera gear but managed. I had access to a couple of darkrooms and made prints.

I landed an assistant's job with NatGeo, working in Italy. When I returned to the States I was hired for an 18 month assignment documenting the living conditions of Native Americans. It didn't pay well but, I enhanced my portfolio of work greatly. I did several memorable portraits, and that stayed with me.

I then worked in a very large professional photo lab as the Tech. My math science skills got me that job, not my pictures. After about a year, I made a deal with the boss, to get time off to do photo work in exchange for not paying me any over time. My overtime hours were accumulated and used for week days off. I used the days off to show my portfolio to graphic designers and art directors.

I began getting jobs and saved the money and bought additional camera gear for work use. After a year of this, I found I needed to learn lighting in a serious way. I showed my book (portfolio) to Irving Penn's former studio manager and I got lucky. I wanted to learn Penn's lighting and found a place to learn it. I worked there off and on for two years, while taking occasional assignments. Some of the art directors I met while working for Penn's former employee hired me once I was off on my own.

I worked very hard, I learned about a lot of stuff I would never use (8x10), but got good at it; it was my job to be good at everything needed. I was an ace at sorting cornflakes for food shots.. stuff like that.

I look for the same stuff in someone I would consider hiring. The assistant I had most recently was a grad of Brooks Institute, before it went into the dumper. Her dad did electronics and other tech work, so she's great with tools and lighting hardware.

One former assistant is a very successful food photographer. She too was a Brooks grad.

Hope that helps, I'm tired of writing.
I spent some time in, what was then called, UC LBL Bldg.51... if you know that place? I wish I had taken photos when the Bev was down. Math is still a hobby.
pkr
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Old 3 Days Ago   #199
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Originally Posted by NaChase View Post
I don't know whether this quote is accurate or not but apparently Socrates said this:

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”
No, not accurate. We know for certain that it was a *comedy character* called Socrates who said this (*if* the *authentic* Socrates uttered this, then it would certainly have been *jokingly*); see: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Youth#Misattributed

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Originally Posted by NaChase View Post
Seems some things never change. For instance, I, a 29-year-old millennial, look upon Generation Z in the same baleful way my own generation is viewed by its predecessors. Get off my lawn.
Usually it's the direct generation before us or after us that we have issues with; with our grandparents and our grandchildren we have a lot to agree; foremost perhaps the notion that always the one generation inbetween are half-morons, I suppose
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Old 3 Days Ago   #200
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David; I was told by one of these students, that it's possible to get a BFA in Photography, from this "University", without ever taking a single picture. There are enough PhotoShop classes to qualify for a photography major. He told me that image theft within the class (students) is rampant. He said, that there were a handful of kids with real talent, and the others ripped them off constantly. He said, the staff was aware that this was happening and did nothing.

It's all about those tuition checks from mom and dad .. and little else, it seems.

Well, um, I dunno; there was a time when to get to university you had to be in the top 3 or so per cent and would come out with a thorough understanding of the knowledge you've gained. But I'm told that these days some degrees are about the level of an "A" level in the 50's and - as you say - only awarded for turning up and not burning the place down.

A few years ago someone we know with a (proper) degree in maths etc* applied for a job as a maths teacher and was told that the job had gone but would they like to teach German or some other language they didn't speak or even know about...

Now, I realise, that the generation that didn't really get a degree are teaching and the heads are (I really, really hope) the only ones with a proper degree.

It's worrying that you can get a degree with ripped off work.

Regards, David
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