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suggestions, school me on 90's that cover 4x5
Old 09-28-2018   #1
emraphoto
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suggestions, school me on 90's that cover 4x5

Mods please feel free to move this. took a wild guess for forum

i am looking for a 90mm. i'll just list some specific needs and preferences to get the ideas flowing.

Linhof TechIII

the lens will be working quite hard. lot's of exposures for an extended period of time.

editorial/environmental portraiture without lights. i need to carry the set-up with me. holders, film, tripod and so forth on foot. as well as other stuff

low light is not really a deal breaker. if it get's too dark, i will go have a beer instead. portra 160 and 400.

would LIKE it if the lens folded up within the body. again, flexible but hey, gun for the stars yeah?

multi coated.

while i am willing to spend money, i don't need flashy names. any off brand gems, offer those up. i will have the lens completely overhauled prior to use, regardless of condition.

hmm, what else to consider? final output? drum scanned, large prints.

filters? probably

so 4x5 knowledge hive, have i missed any considerations? feel free to suggest away. and thank you in advance.
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Old 09-28-2018   #2
Benjamin Marks
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Pretty much any modern (e.g. post WWII) 90 will cover 4x5 and older 90's will do OK when stopped down. I think the Schneider 90/6.8 Angulons will fit inside a Linhoff, but I am not sure. They are single coated, not multicoated, although later ones might be. Also look at Wollensak 3 1/2 inch Raptars, although once again, you'll have to stop down pretty far to avoid vignetting.

The Super Angulons (and the Fujinons) are the great honking more modern biogon-style designs and definitely won't fit. They will be optically superior, and will give you more ability to use the camera's movements, although the Linhoff Tech III doesn't have a ton.

For what it's worth, I think once you have committed to carrying all the stuff you need for a LF setup, it is silly to get hung up on having a lens that will fit in the Linhoff's trusty clam-shell design. Just get a lens cloth and mount the thing on a flat Linhoff board. It will install in seconds, and your choices will be exponentially greater (Rodenstock Grandagons, Caltar II-N's (same as the Rodenstock), Schneider Super Angulons, Caltar II-S (Same as the Schneider) Nikkor SW).

If you really want to go small, also look at the 127 Kodak Ektar in a Supermatic shutter. They came standard on Speed Graphics, were really designed to be used without too much movement, are small, and mostly single-coated. Really nice little sleepers in my opinion. Filters will be a problem for these as the front elements on these aren't threaded.

My experience is with Schneiders and Nikkors, which I use with a Tech IV. With wides, you want to make sure that you can drop the camera's bed to get it out of the way. Can't remember off the top of my head whether that's an issue with 90's at infinity, or whether the problem starts cropping up with 75mm lenses and wider. . .
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Old 09-28-2018   #3
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90mm f6.3 Congo wide field MAY be multicoated. It is a very compact lens. Kerry Thalmann (sp?) spoke highly of his. However, the quality is known to be variable among samples. This is the most recently manufactured 90mm lens that will fold up in a Linhof.

There is the Schneider 90mm f6.8 Angulon. It will cover 4x5 with little movement available. The quality varies on these but if you purchase one made in the late 60's or a Linhof Selected it should be ok. The Angulon is single coated but since it has only 4 lens/air surfaces multi-coating is not so necessary.

If you need more light for focusing then just about any modern 90mm f/5.6 lens will do but I am pretty sure that they won't fold up in the Linhof.

PS: ditto on the above post which got posted while I was writing mine.
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Old 09-28-2018   #4
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Schneider Krueznach Angulon 90/6.8. Nice small lens that just barely covers 4x5. I use this with my Wanderlust Travelwide that uses no movements.

I believe that the Super Angulon by the same manufacturer would also work but it is a larger lens as I understand it.

Have no idea whether they would fold up inside your camera since I do not use a Linhof Tech III but Linhof did use this exact lens for their cameras as mine came as a Linhof Angulon.

Output is very good and should be fine for most uses. I have not looked close enough, since I'm not too worried about it, but there doesn't seem to be excessive distortion. Most of my use is in landscapes not architectural photography.

Of course printing and/or scanning will depend on the film used as much or more than the lens.
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Old 09-28-2018   #5
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This is like asking what 50mm lens will work on 35mm cameras. There are literally hundreds of 90mm lenses that will work on on your Large Format Camera. Suggest you look on the internet. here is a good listing and comparison -

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...s/LF4x5in.html
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Old 09-28-2018   #6
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The 90 6.8 Angulon is loaded full of coma wider than f/8. It is fantastic at f/11 but that doesn't help you in the dark. Towards the edges it is a flock of swallow tails if you have point light sources wider than f/8.

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Old 09-28-2018   #7
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Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon, and Fuji all made numerous high-quality modern 90mm lenses that cover 4x5 with plenty to spare, at various speeds. None will close inside the Linhof as far as I know. Older lenses with lesser performance and very limited coverage will close inside, such as the older Schneider Angulon.

If you want a modern, reliable lens, just get a newish one from the Big 4 in a Copal 0 shutter. They come in either f/8 speed or sometimes faster and larger, at f/4.5, f/5.6, or f/6.8. They will all be comparable in performance at typical apertures. Probably the most typical landscape lens recommended is the Nikkor 90mm f/8, which I have probably shot 1000 sheets with. Great lens - it just works.

The LF forum is a better source for more specific information.
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Old 09-28-2018   #8
Larry H-L
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The image rendering of the Schneider Super-Angulon 90mm f8 makes it one of my favorite wide lenses for 4x5, though it will not fold up inside your camera. I would personally go for rendering over convenience, if you are going to all of the trouble of shooting environmental portraits on a view camera.
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Schneider 90mm Angulon f/6.8 and the Super Technika III
Old 09-28-2018   #9
Sarcophilus Harrisii
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Schneider 90mm Angulon f/6.8 and the Super Technika III

I have an original Super Technika III kit which I was lucky enough to buy complete about a couple of years ago. It’s the last version that had the Graflok back from new. The lenses (with their original cams, important with a III) are the 150mm Xenar f/4.5, the 270m Tele Xenar f/5.5 and the 90mm Angulon f/6.8. Lots of photos of it, including a couple of the Angulon, here.

The Angulon is tiny and will easily fit inside the Linhof with the lens bed retracted. Even with its lens hood still attached.

It’s not designed to be used wide open. That’s only for focusing. I don’t think I have used mine wider than f/16, from memory. I’ve probably only taken a couple of dozen shots at most with it, but it seems to be a reasonable performer.

It's said not to provide any scope for movements on 4x5", but I find that is not actually the case. Vertically, for example, you can raise or lower the lens a good 30+ percent of the 4x5" image frame with decent sharpness, providing it's stopped well down. Roger Hicks actually includes some example images showing the extent of rise or fall possible with the 90mm f/6.8 Angulon on 4x5", on page 69 of his and Frances's book Medium And Large Format Photography (Moving Beyond 35MM For Better Pictures).

Here's a 4x5" image I did with the Linhof last year on HP5 Plus with the 90mm Angulon set to its minimum aperture of f/32. I had to use a decent amount of front rise, in order to sneak under a light hanging from the ceiling and still get part of the cathedral roof in frame. The light would otherwise have merged into the window, if I had positioned the camera far enough back to include the top of it without any movements. The location, by the way, is Saint David's Anglican Cathedral in Hobart.



A few years back Chris Perez did a comparison between a Schneider 90mm Angulon f/6.8 from circa 1950 and their Super Symmar 110mm XL (circa 2000 vintage). He was pleasantly surprised by the sharpness of his Angulon in back to back shots with the 110mm. You'll find the article here.

It's not a lens to purchase if you must be able to shoot wide open, or if maximum coverage of 4x5" is a priority. But they are still able to be procured very cheaply. If you wanted to try one for yourself it's not a big investment. Orphan 90mm Super Technika III cams aren't expensive, either and you can match one to a particular lens if you would like the option of rangefinder focusing and have the basic skills needed. Only basic equipment and patience and attention to detail are needed to dial a cam in to the lens/body of your choice.
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Old 09-28-2018   #10
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Thanks Brett.

At a maximum aperture of f6.8 I guess I never considered the little Angulon 90 a low-light wonder. I know it is an older lens but I really didn't think it was a bad lens at all. My copy has always performed to my satisfaction.

Glad to hear that others enjoy theirs as well.

I think I inherited another of these little wonders so I guess I'll have to match it up to the Intrepid to see what I can get it to do with a camera that has some movements available.

BTW that is a really nice photo.
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Old 09-28-2018   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
Thanks Brett.

At a maximum aperture of f6.8 I guess I never considered the little Angulon 90 a low-light wonder. I know it is an older lens but I really didn't think it was a bad lens at all. My copy has always performed to my satisfaction.

Glad to hear that others enjoy theirs as well.

I think I inherited another of these little wonders so I guess I'll have to match it up to the Intrepid to see what I can get it to do with a camera that has some movements available.

BTW that is a really nice photo.
Thanks Dan, appreciated. I agree that the Angulon isn't much of a starter for hand held low light imaging is it? Despite it being rangefinder coupled, I don't think I have ever actually used it hand held. That I can recall, anyway. I believe I may have read that it performs best at or near its minimum aperture, so in use, I've always tended to stop it down as much as possible. With the reciprocity characteristics of the Ilford films I usually shoot through the Linhof, indoor exposures can easily reach thirty seconds plus. But it's a lens that does have a little scope for movements on 4x5", so if you're able to close it down it's worth trying at some stage.
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Old 09-29-2018   #12
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Another vote for the plain old cooking f/6.8 Angulon. I've used 'em for years. No movement at infinity though of course as you rack out this changes.

The full aperture is for focusing only: the lens is most useful at f/16 and f/22, with f/32 for (slightly) more movement.

Why multicoated? Desirable, maybe, but hardly essential. A good lens hood will do more, in most circumstances.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 09-29-2018   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Another vote for the plain old cooking f/6.8 Angulon. I've used 'em for years. No movement at infinity though of course as you rack out this changes.

The full aperture is for focusing only: the lens is most useful at f/16 and f/22, with f/32 for (slightly) more movement.

Why multicoated? Desirable, maybe, but hardly essential. A good lens hood will do more, in most circumstances.

Cheers,

R.
flare was the only real issue regarding multicoating. i realize it must seem trivial to most but i cannot stress enough how space is an issue in all the considerations. with that said, a hood isn't exactly huge. this is exactly why i ask the question in this forum. knowledgeable people i have known for a long time.

the angulon is an excellent suggestion. thank you.

Sarcophilus, thank you for the image example. i have always been a fan of HP5 in all formats.

Benjamin, in almost all circumstances it would seem silly to exclude a lens that doesn't fold up inside the body. no argument there. without a long winded explanation i will say that the terrain i will be covering is tough. hundreds of miles on foot as well. everything must be carried by me. including essentials of hygiene and sleep . so not a deal breaker but to protect the lens and maximize space it sure would be nice if it fit inside the body.
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Old 09-29-2018   #14
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Another vote for the Angulon.


It covers 4x5 very well, though doesn't have near as much "extra" coverage as the Super-Angulon so movements are more limited. It does produce noticeably more even illumination, center to edge, than the Super-Angulon.


Angulons were made for a very very very long time. The original releases were uncoated, though most of what's out there are the post-WWII versions which have very good single layer coatings. Just look for one in a modern shutter, possibly even one with the Linhof name on it. Linhof sold it on a custom very slightly recessed lens board specifically for the Technika series.
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Old 09-29-2018   #15
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I believe the old Wollensak 3 1/2" f/6.8 is a Schneider Angulon.
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Old 09-29-2018   #16
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Optar 90mm f6.8

https://graflex.org/helpboard/viewto...38560f12c64aa2
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Old 09-29-2018   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwig View Post
Another vote for the Angulon.

It covers 4x5 very well, though doesn't have near as much "extra" coverage as the Super-Angulon so movements are more limited. It does produce noticeably more even illumination, center to edge, than the Super-Angulon.
This is not how optics work (of generally non-retrofocus design). If you perceived the Angulon to produce more even images, it was likely because there was less contrast, more flare, or some other issue causing this. The SA, with a larger image circle, should have marginally more even coverage overall, pursuant to standard fall-off of cos^4.

The problem with the Angulon is two-fold. First, they are highly variable, as has been widely discussed. I personally have had several examples, and while the Linhof-badged one was 'best,' they all clearly had noticeable issues at the periphery at any aperture other than f/32, at which the corners sharpened up a little. They were all in the middle of the production period. Newer ones will be more expensive usually and may be slightly better.

Second, they are in older Compur shutters that likely need service. Modern lenses in Copal 0 shutters are much more likely to work "out of the box."

I don't know how some are getting movements out of their Angulon, but my copies cut hard to black with just a little bit of tilt or rise.

A nice MC Super Angulon is not that much more than the old Angulon, and a better lens in every respect. It's just bigger, and has a slightly narrower max aperture. Both need care in their focusing anyway (if you are focusing in dim light, get an f/4.5 or f/5.6 lens and live with the huge size). The Angulon is a nice travel lens if you can live with its shortcomings.
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Old 10-14-2018   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran View Post
This is not how optics work (of generally non-retrofocus design). If you perceived the Angulon to produce more even images, it was likely because there was less contrast, more flare, or some other issue causing this. The SA, with a larger image circle, should have marginally more even coverage overall, pursuant to standard fall-off of cos^4.

The problem with the Angulon is two-fold. First, they are highly variable, as has been widely discussed. I personally have had several examples, and while the Linhof-badged one was 'best,' they all clearly had noticeable issues at the periphery at any aperture other than f/32, at which the corners sharpened up a little. They were all in the middle of the production period. Newer ones will be more expensive usually and may be slightly better.

Second, they are in older Compur shutters that likely need service. Modern lenses in Copal 0 shutters are much more likely to work "out of the box."

I don't know how some are getting movements out of their Angulon, but my copies cut hard to black with just a little bit of tilt or rise.

A nice MC Super Angulon is not that much more than the old Angulon, and a better lens in every respect. It's just bigger, and has a slightly narrower max aperture. Both need care in their focusing anyway (if you are focusing in dim light, get an f/4.5 or f/5.6 lens and live with the huge size). The Angulon is a nice travel lens if you can live with its shortcomings.
And with that, it’s a modern MC super angulon for the win!

Thanx folks, i really appreciate it.
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Old 10-14-2018   #19
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Hey! You're going to love that lens. Congrats on the purchase! Now, let's see some images. . .
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Old 12-12-2018   #20
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Hey! You're going to love that lens. Congrats on the purchase! Now, let's see some images. . .
Thanx Benjamin! I hope you are well

Funny story, went to purchase the Schneider and in the tricksy salesmans bag was a shiny, modern (and expensive) Rodenstock-N 90mm f6.8. I forgot all about the Schneider. Tricksy salesman. It's big and heavy and totally not what i set out to get but i briefly lost my normally frugal mind.

I'll post some work as soon as i get it scanned.
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