Leica Standard or Leica I
Old 11-12-2018   #1
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Leica Standard or Leica I

I have a black Leica camera that may be a Standard or a Leica I. It has serial number 160933. It is a small camera. What exactly are the differences between Leica I, II, III and the Standard?
Shutter speeds go from "Z" 25-1 30 40 60 100 200 500.
Which camera do I have here?
I found this online: 160701 161150 Leica I 1935 camera

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Old 11-12-2018   #2
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Awesome camera!

Standard has screwed in VF?
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Old 11-12-2018   #3
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Someone may have removed the fixed 5cm viewfinder in my camera and replaced it with an accessory shoe. The camera looks much better than in the quick snapshots shown here. It could be a modified Standard. Stephen's list of SN's lists my camera as a Leica I but Stephen states that some Leica I listings on his list could be Standard Leica cameras.
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Old 11-12-2018   #4
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I am certainly no expert but it seems they are all Leica 1(s). The original Leica 1 was a Model C. The Leica 1 that was commonly called the Standard came out as the Model E in the same year that the Leica II, also known as a Model D, was introduced. I believe that the name "Standard" designates that the lens flange distance was standardized (which was identified with the little '0' on the cameras flange.)



Based on your Serial Number, and the general chronology, yours should be a Model E Leica 1, also known as a Standard. However, you do not appear to have the little viewfinder on top no can I see the little number '0' on your camera's lens flange.


Very interesting.
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Old 11-12-2018   #5
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Looks like a 1

Likely modified with the extra shoe.

The mount could have been replaced hence the lack of “o”

Very interesting and cool camera!

Maybe extra intriguing to someone shooting wide angle. VF and bubble level! Sounds like something your into Raid.

Nice find!
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Old 11-12-2018   #6
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Thanks for the input.
I have been using this camera with a Rokkor 2.1cm and the Canon 19mm. The middle accessory shoe is used with the VF. There is no need for a RF here. The DoF is huge with such wide angle lenses. The shutter is smooth like butter. How can a camera be working so smoothly if it was made in the 1930's?!
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Old 11-12-2018   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
I am certainly no expert but it seems they are all Leica 1(s). The original Leica 1 was a Model C. The Leica 1 that was commonly called the Standard came out as the Model E in the same year that the Leica II, also known as a Model D, was introduced. I believe that the name "Standard" designates that the lens flange distance was standardized (which was identified with the little '0' on the cameras flange.)



Based on your Serial Number, and the general chronology, yours should be a Model E Leica 1, also known as a Standard. However, you do not appear to have the little viewfinder on top no can I see the little number '0' on your camera's lens flange.


Very interesting.
My camera seems to have received a chrome replacement lens flange, so that is why we cannot see the "0".
The 5cm viewfinder was replaced with an extra accessory shoe (for some reason).
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Old 11-12-2018   #8
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My serial number listing shows it is both a I and a standard, listed as "I standard." The model I would have the "hockey stick" infinity stop on the front panel. Yours doesn't, suggesting it is a transitional piece between the I and the standard. I agree with Pioneer the Standard has the standardized mount with the "O" engraved at the top. The absence of the "O" on yours might just mean they hadn't yet thought of engraving the "O" during the transitional period. Does it focus correctly at infinity with one or more of your thread-mount lenses?

Edit: Rogliatti lists it as a"I Standard." Hove Pocket guide 7th edition, simply as a I.
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Old 11-13-2018   #9
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Dear Raid,

there's a lot of confusion simply because US Americans and the rest of the world have developed different terminologies regarding the Thread Mount Leicas!

I guess this article here may shed some light on it:
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Leica_Standard

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Old 11-13-2018   #10
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Raid, it is a 1 Standard from 1935, not a 1. I did not know that "1 Standard" Leicas exists, but here is the proof. Rob-F is right.

I knew that there was a Leica "1" and a Leica "Standard", but not that there was a Leica "1 Standard". 450 pcs made.

Congratulations!

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Old 11-13-2018   #11
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Thank you all! This is very interesting.
It focuses correctly with several lenses, including a 5cm 3.5 Elmar with guess focus.
Having a "I Standard" is a cool thing to uncover here. I was not sure if it was a Standard or a I.
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Old 11-13-2018   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumarongi View Post
Dear Raid,

there's a lot of confusion simply because US Americans and the rest of the world have developed different terminologies regarding the Thread Mount Leicas!

I guess this article here may shed some light on it:
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Leica_Standard

Thank you for the link on the Leica Standard. I will go over the material there.
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Old 11-13-2018   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
Raid, it is a 1 Standard from 1935, not a 1. I did not know that "1 Standard" Leicas exists, but here is the proof. Rob-F is right.

I knew that there was a Leica "1" and a Leica "Standard", but not that there was a Leica "1 Standard". 450 pcs made.

Congratulations!

Erik.

Thank you, Erik. So there exist only 450 I Standard cameras? This is "rare" or "uncommon", I guess. It seems to me now that this model was a transition model in 1935. It is amazing that such old cameras can function so smoothly.
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Old 11-13-2018   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob-F View Post
My serial number listing shows it is both a I and a standard, listed as "I standard." The model I would have the "hockey stick" infinity stop on the front panel. Yours doesn't, suggesting it is a transitional piece between the I and the standard. I agree with Pioneer the Standard has the standardized mount with the "O" engraved at the top. The absence of the "O" on yours might just mean they hadn't yet thought of engraving the "O" during the transitional period. Does it focus correctly at infinity with one or more of your thread-mount lenses?

Edit: Rogliatti lists it as a"I Standard." Hove Pocket guide 7th edition, simply as a I.
Thank you Rob.
Yes, the Hockey Stick is not there! There is no "O" either.
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Old 11-13-2018   #15
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It’s almost like they deliberately made variations on the theme to keep us amused 83 years into the future, Raid. Very forward-thinking company, Leica.
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Old 11-13-2018   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
It seems to me now that this model was a transition model in 1935.

I hope I will sleep tonight because I will be tormented by the question "WHY". Why did they make such a thing? Were all 450 cameras with two accessory shoes? Is it made from left-over parts because of the change to chrome models? Is it intended for use with a PLOOT (mirror house) or on a microscope.


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Old 11-13-2018   #17
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I can't quite see but is the vulcanite correct for the year?

My quick way of telling what is what is what is the size of the rewind knob (but don't rely on it). Big = 1 Small = Standard.

I too have never noticed that there was a '1 Standard'.
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Old 11-13-2018   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
I hope I will sleep tonight because I will be tormented by the question "WHY". Why did they make such a thing? Were all 450 cameras with two accessory shoes? Is it made from left-over parts because of the change to chrome models? Is it intended for use with a PLOOT (mirror house)?


Erik.
Don't worry about it all, Erik. I asked myself the same questions this morning! Who knows what "they" were thinking, and who are "they" anyways? There was no WWII then, so metals should have been available.
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Old 11-13-2018   #19
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Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
I can't quite see but is the vulcanite correct for the year?

My quick way of telling what is what is what is the size of the rewind knob (but don't rely on it). Big = 1 Small = Standard.

I too have never noticed that there was a '1 Standard'.
I have had this camera since (maybe) 15 years now. The past owner was/is a RFF member. Maybe he can dsicuss it here.
He told me that this camera is "rare" but I don't recall why he emant it as being a rare camera. It could have been the fact of the camera being black, but it seems that many Standard cameras were in black.

As for the rewind knob, does my camera sport a big knob or a small knob?
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Old 11-13-2018   #20
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Raid, you have a small rewind knob, you can pull it up for easier rewind. The original Leica 1 had a much thicker rewind knob that could not be pulled up.


From now on I will take a close look at all the Leica Standard to see if they have a number that fits in this batch.



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Old 11-13-2018   #21
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Yes, you are right, Erik. The rewind knob can be pulled up. Such old cameras are a lot of fun to investigate.
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Old 11-13-2018   #22
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To me the early ones were simply the Leica...



The advert is from a 1929 magazine.

I have seen ones with the twin accessory clips (as they were called) but domestic duties stop me searching for it. Sorry about that...
Regards, David

PS And the usual film for them was Perutz; not many people know that...
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Old 11-13-2018   #23
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Thank you, David. If you one day have the time to look for the information on Standard camera with twin accessory clips, please do.
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Old 11-13-2018   #24
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Old 11-13-2018   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
Thank you, David. If you one day have the time to look for the information on Standard camera with twin accessory clips, please do.

Hi,

The model Ic came with two accessory clips, also called an OEGIO. It was made from 1949 to 1952 but had the blank cover instead of the slow speed dial. So we are none the wiser. (Two were also a feature on the If and Ig.)

OTOH, the Ur Leica also had two clips and that suggests it was something the factory and dealers knew about it and could offer it when needed. Or you could be amazingly lucky.

I don't know your opinion, or anybody else's, but I have often thought that there were dozens if not hundreds of non-standard Leicas made and non-standard bits and pieces for them. Over the years you see all sorts of weird things turn up...

I'm sorry I can't help more.

Regards, David
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Old 11-13-2018   #26
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I think I can see two little bumps in front of the second shoe —— I guess these are the remnants of the original finder's fastening?
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Old 11-13-2018   #27
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Hi,

The model Ic came with two accessory clips, also called an OEGIO. It was made from 1949 to 1952 but had the blank cover instead of the slow speed dial. So we are none the wiser. (Two were also a feature on the If and Ig.)

OTOH, the Ur Leica also had two clips and that suggests it was something the factory and dealers knew about it and could offer it when needed. Or you could be amazingly lucky.

I don't know your opinion, or anybody else's, but I have often thought that there were dozens if not hundreds of non-standard Leicas made and non-standard bits and pieces for them. Over the years you see all sorts of weird things turn up...

I'm sorry I can't help more.

Regards, David
Hi David,
In what sense did you mean that I may have been lucky here? Is my camera "maybe" a "rare model"?

You are most likely correct about having many non-standard Leica cameras around.
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Old 11-13-2018   #28
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Originally Posted by Sumarongi View Post
I think I can see two little bumps in front of the second shoe —— I guess these are the remnants of the original finder's fastening?
I see them too. So maybe someone removed the 5cm VF and placed there a second accessory shoe. Why? When? By whom?
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Old 11-13-2018   #29
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I've always looked at old Leica's in the same manner as old Porsche's. They're rebuildable since they are hand made to a certain extent. The big difference is that with a Porsche you can get a CoA and know how it came from the factory. A Leica, well, they could be modified over the years too but unfortunately I don't think you can get a CoA to know exactly how it came from the factory.That's a pretty cool little camera you have there, Raid. Thanks for posting better pictures of it.
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Old 11-13-2018   #30
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Thanks. I have not used the camera for a while, but I am eager to load it with some film and go for it again. The history may remain a secret, which is fine.
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Old 11-13-2018   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I see them too. So maybe someone removed the 5cm VF and placed there a second accessory shoe. Why? When? By whom?
I guess this was done to use the camera with a wide angle lens, 35mm or 28mm. One of the clips was used for the viewfinder and the other for the rangefinder. The rangefinder was mounted vertically. With the 50mm finder still in place and the rangefinder in the accessoryshoe the camera could only be used with a 50mm lens.

Also a VIDOM (universal finder) could be used in one clip and the rangefinder in the other.

With two clips the camera is much more universal than with one clip and a fixed 50mm finder. It is WW1 technology but will work fine.

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Old 11-13-2018   #32
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Another area worth exploring might be presentation cameras but presented to people retiring from the factory. I've seen FED versions and, but nothing to do with this thread, presentation handguns with a full set of tools as a retirement present.

OTOH (1), if there are two bumps then it sounds like a post sale modification.

OTOH (2), an unknown, or forgotten, Leica prototype did turn up as in Hans-Günter Kisselbach's ebook:-

https://lhsa.org/2018/04/book-review...ach/#myaccount

I just wish a solid, printed version was available.

Regards, David
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Old 11-13-2018   #33
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Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
I guess this was done to use the camera with a wide angle lens, 35mm or 28mm. One of the clips was used for the viewfinder and the other for the rangefinder. The rangefinder was mounted vertically. With the 50mm finder still in place and the rangefinder in the accessoryshoe the camera could only be used with a 50mm lens.

Also a VIDOM (universal finder) could be used in one clip and the rangefinder in the other.

With two clips the camera is much more universal than with one clip and a fixed 50mm finder. It is WW1 technology but will work fine.

Erik.
I find having 2 accessory finders to be very useful for use with wide angle lenses. Using a RF is also possible. Someone told me at some time that this modification may have made my Standard less original.
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Old 11-13-2018   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post


OTOH (2), an unknown, or forgotten, Leica prototype did turn up as in Hans-Günter Kisselbach's ebook:-

https://lhsa.org/2018/04/book-review...ach/#myaccount

I just wish a solid, printed version was available.

Regards, David

There is, I have it, it is called "Barnacks Erste Leica" and is written by Hans-Günter Kisselbach in 2008. It is in German. Makes a wonderful read. Many wonderful pictures. Maybe it is still available in Germany. Just try.

ISBN 978-3-89506-282-7

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Old 11-13-2018   #35
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https://www.goodreads.com/author/sho...ter_Kisselbach

Barnacks Erste Leica.: Das Zweite Leben Einer Vergessenen Historischen Kamera
by Hans-Günter Kisselbach
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Old 11-13-2018   #36
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A nice very capable camera
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Old 11-13-2018   #37
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I have a IIIf and a Tower35. They are also very nice cameras to use.
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Old 11-13-2018   #38
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Hi David,
In what sense did you mean that I may have been lucky here? Is my camera "maybe" a "rare model"?

You are most likely correct about having many non-standard Leica cameras around.
I wish I knew; the more I learn about Leicas the less I know.

BTW, the shutter button on your one makes it very early but, as has been mentioned, where's the hockey stick infinity lock? I hate to say it but I feel it ought to be stripped down in the search for other clues...

Regards, David
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Old 11-13-2018   #39
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No way, David! This camera will stay "clothed" and stay unstripped! It is not a valuable colelctible item.
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Old 11-13-2018   #40
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Quote:
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BTW, the shutter button on your one makes it very early but, as has been mentioned, where's the hockey stick infinity lock? I hate to say it but I feel it ought to be stripped down in the search for other clues...
Dear David,
if the serial # 160933 is correct (and not some Russian or American Leica-faker's joke), then it's made in 1935 — no hockey stick; see: http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Leica_Standard
In how far do you find the shutter release button strange (or particularly old) looking, David?
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