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Film Ferrania: Most delayed Kickstarter Product EVER??? (2014-2019???)
Old 02-28-2019   #1
burninfilm
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Film Ferrania: Most delayed Kickstarter Product EVER??? (2014-2019???)

Have there been any other photography related Kickstarter campaigns with more delays??? I'm not talking about completely failed Kickstarters... I mean ones where the company is supposedly still trying to fulfill their promises to their backers... even years later.

Their Kickstarter campaign ended successfully in late 2014, and at the end of February 2019, there is still no color reversal film coming out of their little factory in Italy. They DID put out a small batch of P30 "alpha" B&W in 2017, which sold out quickly and has been unavailable for a substantial amount of time.

Their last update was December 28th of 2019, which makes this 2 months of silence and wondering what continuous production of P30 "by early 2019" actually means. So out of curiosity, does anyone know of another Kickstarter with a longer history? Think Film Ferrania will actually produce some color reversal film someday?
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Old 02-28-2019   #2
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I would have to guess that it has been equally frustrating for them.



I wrote this one off when I received the offer a while back to exchange my reversal film reward for the black and white film. I have plenty of black and white film options so I didn't take them up on that offer but I kind of sensed at that point that color reversal film was a dead issue.



Too bad since it would have been nice. At least we have Ektachrome.
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Old 02-28-2019   #3
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I was in on the original Kickstarter campaign so many years back. Now, after having tried P30, I’m more interested in that, than any E6 product they may bring out.

After years of broken promises, I still support the company and understand their current news blackout. By constantly setting deadlines they never meet, all they do is make for bad feelings. To me, they should only “go public” again once they have a final product to ship.

I’m patient and can wait. I’m sure others will feel differently.

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Old 02-28-2019   #4
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I too was an original backer and after seeing the almost insurmountable hurdles they've come up against , I'm most impressed they're still at it ! I for one definitely want the E-6 product in 120 format . If they needed more crowd funding I'd sign up in a heartbeat . Peter
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Old 02-28-2019   #5
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Was/am a backer. Good things come to those who wait. They have been fairly transparent and communicative, unlike some. A delayed product is better than none, so I continue to wait patiently.
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Old 02-28-2019   #6
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Most delayed and probably most ambitious. I believe they’ve been working hard on, and making progress on,what appeared to be an insurmountable project. I was an original backer, but have since stopped shooting film anyway (but a few rolls of Faraniacolor might change that). I still wish them all the best, especially with Fujifilm exiting the film business.
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Old 02-28-2019   #7
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I have a friend based in Florence, shooting the Middle East, using Ferrania p30.
It seems available in Italy, in cities of Florence,Milan and one or two others..,
He loves the film's retro look., sharpness and tonal scale.
Only shortcoming is availability and it is S L O W in ISO speed.
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Old 02-28-2019   #8
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Hmmm... yes, it was very ambitious. Still, it's very obvious now that they either vastly under-estimated (and I mean a MASSIVE amount of under-estimating) what it would take to get things up and running, or simply over-represented their abilities by a huge amount. Their original pitch was for 4 different formats of color reversal film by April 2015, and nearly 4 years later, they haven't even made a market-ready batch of quality 35mm (the only format they are focused on right now) black & white negative film.

There are lots of things that can be picked apart about what they've been doing the last 5 years, but... up to December of 2018 they still seemed like they were trying!

Since then, it's not like this is the 1st time they've gone silent for extended lengths of time... they've done this before... only to come back with more reasons why things got delayed. Maybe this time it will be different???
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Old 02-28-2019   #9
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I would consider communication in December 2018 to be current.


No communication in two months is not my idea of an extended length of time. There is still room for an announcement of production in "early 2019."


I wasn't a part of the Kickstarter campaign, but I'm still hopeful that they will eventually come out with E6 products. The good news, in my mind, is that they haven't given up.


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Old 02-28-2019   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burninfilm View Post
So out of curiosity, does anyone know of another Kickstarter with a longer history?

2013 - The Robotech RPG Tactics game was successfully funded (for 1.4 million dollars!) .....pretty much turned into a **** show from that point.
For months, years even, Palladium books kept saying "Everything's fine, you'll get all your stuff"
Until March 2018, Harmony Gold got fed up and pulled Palladium Books' license.
Palladium says "All the money is gone, Sorry, can't offer refunds"
These *******s still owe me and some 5500 people a LOT of money but the BBB and the AG doen't seem to want to do much about it.

Ferrania owes me 2 rolls of their slide film. In the last update they said they will be offering a way to exchange the KS rewards for some P30 film, which I'll probably take them up on.
I'm glad to have helped them get started.
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Old 02-28-2019   #11
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****, I can't say *******s?
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Old 03-01-2019   #12
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Ferrania is no big deal! Star Citizen, the largest piece of Kickstarter vaporware (over $200 million raised since its launch in 2012) ever, is still in development.
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Old 03-01-2019   #13
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****, I can't say *******s?
**** ******* *****

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Old 03-01-2019   #14
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Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
I have a friend based in Florence, shooting the Middle East, using Ferrania p30.
It seems available in Italy, in cities of Florence,Milan and one or two others..,
He loves the film's retro look., sharpness and tonal scale.
Only shortcoming is availability and it is S L O W in ISO speed.
The complete lack of anything approaching a normal density curve from P30 is a real problem if you are wet printing. If you scan you can push it around more.

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Old 03-01-2019   #15
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Ferrania is no big deal! Star Citizen, the largest piece of Kickstarter vaporware (over $200 million raised since its launch in 2012) ever, is still in development.
Chris Roberts was behind so many fantastic Space Sims back in the day; Wing Commander, Privateer, Freelancer.



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**** ******* *****

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Old 03-01-2019   #16
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they failed already.
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Old 03-01-2019   #17
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The complete lack of anything approaching a normal density curve from P30 is a real problem if you are wet printing. If you scan you can push it around more.

Marty
Could not agree more. Like many of these new films, the Silberra Ortho, the Washi, P30 is not a film for traditional printing.

I backed Ferrania, but couldnít use the B&W despite trying very hard. And all these years later Iím not shooting much film anymore at all.
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Old 03-01-2019   #18
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I've given up on Ferrania. I can't believe how many years it has been since I backed this company. During all the years that have passed I have given up on shooting E6 film so I dont care if I get my film or not. I lost my lab and have no interest in finding a new one or sending it out. Ferrania has a near endless supply of excuses and I stopped listening to them years ago.
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Old 03-01-2019   #19
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Originally Posted by burninfilm View Post
Have there been any other photography related Kickstarter campaigns with more delays??? I'm not talking about completely failed Kickstarters... I mean ones where the company is supposedly still trying to fulfill their promises to their backers... even years later.

Their Kickstarter campaign ended successfully in late 2014, and at the end of February 2019, there is still no color reversal film coming out of their little factory in Italy. They DID put out a small batch of P30 "alpha" B&W in 2017, which sold out quickly and has been unavailable for a substantial amount of time.

Their last update was December 28th of 2019, which makes this 2 months of silence and wondering what continuous production of P30 "by early 2019" actually means. So out of curiosity, does anyone know of another Kickstarter with a longer history? Think Film Ferrania will actually produce some color reversal film someday?

Yeah it turns out soup to nuts industrialization of film production in a derelict factory takes much longer than Kickstarters for 3D printed hockey pucks.
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Old 03-01-2019   #20
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People were very dedicated in this f campaign. But for any one who is familiar with project management and manufacturing it was obvious what it is nothing but SNAFU.
Compare it to Adox, for example. Those are professionals. F campaign is bunch of total amateurs. Thier capability celling is something like single use camera repackaging.
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Old 03-01-2019   #21
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I was a backer although I didn't think they would deliver. No one else will ever even think about trying what they actually tried to do.

Seriously, take the money Ferrania got with Kickstarter to Fuji/Kodak and ask them to do bring back Astia/Plus-X and they'd laugh you off even though they still have a running film production. For that kind of money I bet they won't even bother to make up a single excuse (ok, Kodak might consider it if the amount of money was much higher)...
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Old 03-01-2019   #22
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It's an interesting fact that the "old" Ferrania produced colour slide film until 2010, sold under the Agfaphoto label in Europe. That was only 10 years ago - but what happened since then? If you keep that in mind, it's hard to understand why it should be some kind of rocket science to establish production again. In my understanding, they have lost their original vision completely, while trying to preserve the original factory building and machine park. If they had concentrated more on their final product and searched help from business experts, and maybe given up the idea to preserve the old structures, the project could have been a success.

I still hope the best for them, but let's be honest: They will be another "boutique" producer of black and white films among some others, if they can make the step out of experimental status. But definitely not the saviour of analogue colour film.
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Old 03-01-2019   #23
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Hmmm... yes, it was very ambitious. Still, it's very obvious now that they either vastly under-estimated (and I mean a MASSIVE amount of under-estimating) what it would take to get things up and running, or simply over-represented their abilities by a huge amount. Their original pitch was for 4 different formats of color reversal film by April 2015, and nearly 4 years later, they haven't even made a market-ready batch of quality 35mm (the only format they are focused on right now) black & white negative film.

There are lots of things that can be picked apart about what they've been doing the last 5 years, but... up to December of 2018 they still seemed like they were trying!

Since then, it's not like this is the 1st time they've gone silent for extended lengths of time... they've done this before... only to come back with more reasons why things got delayed. Maybe this time it will be different???
If your interest in actually understanding the timeline of the Ferrania project is sincere, you would do well to read the two longest threads on the subject over at photrio.com, alias APUG, as it seems you haven’t. There are detailed descriptions from factory representation of exactly what has transpired to delay production. The simple truth is that they did not over represent anything. “Underestimating what it would take to get things up and running” is a fair assessment, but only in hindsight, as no one could have predicted a couple of huge issues they had in regard to the existing infrastructure. The information is out there for anyone who cares to look, but most of it isn’t on the kickstarter page.

This isn’t a massively funded corporate behemoth like Fuji. It is, from all available evidence, essentially a passion project by handful of “believers” who have patiently persevered in the face of setbacks, massive and niggling, in an effort give the film world something they believe in. It would be nice if the armchair industrialists would cut them some slack, but that would be countercultural.

The future is unknown, but I personally wouldn’t be surprised if they eventually produce some color transparency film, but guessing it won’t be anytime soon. Personally, sitting over here in the cheap seats, I’m grateful for their efforts, and P30 (I scan), and wish them well.
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Old 03-01-2019   #24
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Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
The complete lack of anything approaching a normal density curve from P30 is a real problem if you are wet printing. If you scan you can push it around more.

Marty

Stated another, equally valid way, "The complete lack of anything approaching a normal density curve from P30 is a real opportunity if you are wet printing."

I'm hoping for the best outcome with Ferrania and wish them well. I especially want to play with 120 format P30 - I have a Brownie from the turn of the century and it would be good creative fun to pair that low contrast lens with high contrast P30 and see what happens in the darkroom.
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Old 03-01-2019   #25
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This is to all the backers that no longer shoot film .... hows about you simply mail it to me when it finally comes thru , Peter
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Old 03-01-2019   #26
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I am quite impressed by the tenaciousness of the people behind Ferrania. I wasn't a kickstarter supporter, but when they finally get their film out I'll get some.
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Old 03-02-2019   #27
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Stated another, equally valid way, "The complete lack of anything approaching a normal density curve from P30 is a real opportunity if you are wet printing."

I'm hoping for the best outcome with Ferrania and wish them well. I especially want to play with 120 format P30 - I have a Brownie from the turn of the century and it would be good creative fun to pair that low contrast lens with high contrast P30 and see what happens in the darkroom.
Contrasty prints will happen. I shot P30 with ancient uncoated lenses and developed both film and paper in low contrast developers. Grade 00 prints still looked like grade 4, even shooting in extremely flat light. Though better than some of the Washi offerings, P30 is not really suited to anything but high contrast wet prints unless one wants to shoot it at iso 6 and pull the heck out of it.
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Old 03-02-2019   #28
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This is to all the backers that no longer shoot film .... hows about you simply mail it to me when it finally comes thru , Peter
Either I'll make an exception just to use this film, or I'll have died of old age and my kids will have sold it.
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Old 03-02-2019   #29
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If genuine capitalists have decided not to back a product, who am I to disagree with them.
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Old 03-02-2019   #30
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Ferrania are in way over their head and have been for years now. I've long since given up hope that they will ever produce color film again.
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Old 03-02-2019   #31
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I am quite impressed by the tenaciousness of the people behind Ferrania. I wasn't a kickstarter supporter, but when they finally get their film out I'll get some.
Same.
It sucks for the backers, but would perhaps be better for ferrania to drop the colour plans, now that Kodak makes Ektachrome again the chances that oit will be profitable are diminished.
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Old 03-04-2019   #32
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Contrasty prints will happen. I shot P30 with ancient uncoated lenses and developed both film and paper in low contrast developers. Grade 00 prints still looked like grade 4, even shooting in extremely flat light. Though better than some of the Washi offerings, P30 is not really suited to anything but high contrast wet prints unless one wants to shoot it at iso 6 and pull the heck out of it.
Your results and mine couldn't be farther apart. I only exposed three rolls and found usable negatives at iso50. Who shoots at iso 6??

Here are three iPhone snaps of working prints that I never did anything with. They were made with modern Zeiss contrasty glass. They all would require dodging and burning, etc but I never took the prints farther than this stage. One of them is the dreaded P30 exposed at iso 50 with normal development (I just followed Ferrania's instructions for Ilfosol 3). I printed with a #2 filter on RC warm tone from Ilford, following their instructions for using their Multigrade developer.

In my experience most folks can't tell what film was used for various prints unless it's very obvious like with a super grainy Delta3200 or whatever.





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Old 03-04-2019   #33
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As I read this thread I spot a roll of reversal panchromatic Ferrania on my shelf. £1.5s.8d. expired April '1969.

50 years ago...

Last time I read their website it seemed as if that they had fallen headlong into a 'Health and Safety' black hole. Bet that wouldn't have been a problem fifty years ago.

Bring back Cow Gum, spray mount and Calor gas fires in a freezing studio under the Heathrow flightpath full of cigarette smoke.

Surprisingly I am still alive.
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Old 03-04-2019   #34
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I backed their original campaign. I got a cool postcard in the mail that was in italian, and it got water damaged, but the color fade almost ended up looking cooler. I'm not mad in the least, but could be understanding if someone pledged more than like 10 bucks (on what was a pretty risky project from the start). I still get a chuckle when I get the updates from them, haha.
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Old 03-05-2019   #35
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Your results and mine couldn't be farther apart. I only exposed three rolls and found usable negatives at iso50. Who shoots at iso 6??

Here are three iPhone snaps of working prints that I never did anything with. They were made with modern Zeiss contrasty glass. They all would require dodging and burning, etc but I never took the prints farther than this stage. One of them is the dreaded P30 exposed at iso 50 with normal development (I just followed Ferrania's instructions for Ilfosol 3). I printed with a #2 filter on RC warm tone from Ilford, following their instructions for using their Multigrade developer.

In my experience most folks can't tell what film was used for various prints unless it's very obvious like with a super grainy Delta3200 or whatever.





All these look to me like the wet print equivalent of a starting point for a scan - too flat both in the shadows and highlights.

The problem with P40 is flexibility. If you want to make photos that look however the materials make them turn out, fine. You can make images that look like those you posted with film with a normal curve by modifying the exposure and development, and printing them this way. But you can't make photos taken with P40 have normal shadow and highlight values and contrast without an extraordinary amount of work, so you can't match existing work or tailor it to match the contrast curves of different families of paper.

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Old 03-05-2019   #36
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I backed their original campaign. I got a cool postcard in the mail that was in italian, and it got water damaged, but the color fade almost ended up looking cooler. I'm not mad in the least, but could be understanding if someone pledged more than like 10 bucks (on what was a pretty risky project from the start). I still get a chuckle when I get the updates from them, haha.
As they said in the most recent updates, they're working on allowing backers to exchange their pledge rewards for something else. If that nets me a few more rolls of P30, they get no grief from me
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Old 03-06-2019   #37
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All these look to me like the wet print equivalent of a starting point for a scan - too flat both in the shadows and highlights.
That's effectively what they are as I said in my post, a starting point that was taken no further, which I often do to get something bigger than a contact print to review but without too much labor or paper. There are no blacks, whites, dodging or burning.

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The problem with P40 is flexibility. If you want to make photos that look however the materials make them turn out, fine. You can make images that look like those you posted with film with a normal curve by modifying the exposure and development, and printing them this way. But you can't make photos taken with P40 have normal shadow and highlight values and contrast without an extraordinary amount of work, so you can't match existing work or tailor it to match the contrast curves of different families of paper.
I shared those images because I keep reading comments that are not what I'm seeing, i.e. printing at 00 and seeing grade 4 results, needing to shoot at iso6, getting nothing but blown highlights and blank shadows, etc. A newcomer to this forum could be forgiven for expecting this film to produce nothing but blacks and whites. That's not the case on the film or on the paper.

Your points about matching past work and various papers is taken, and of course if this is a primary issue then this isn't the film that a concerned photographer should use, in the same way that you wouldn't use a Holga to match your past Leica work I suppose. If you need a flexible, normal film there are plenty in the marketplace already, but I don't think Ferrania is selling that unless I've missed claims from them. I think they're selling a particular look similar to their films from the 1960s. I'd need more than three rolls to explore that idea properly. If they make more I'll buy some and have fun with it.
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Old 03-07-2019   #38
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It's interesting to hear about the other crazy long Kickstarters. The Star Citizen one sounds insane!!!


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If your interest in actually understanding the timeline of the Ferrania project is sincere, you would do well to read the two longest threads on the subject over at photrio.com, alias APUG, as it seems you haven’t. There are detailed descriptions from factory representation of exactly what has transpired to delay production. The simple truth is that they did not over represent anything. “Underestimating what it would take to get things up and running” is a fair assessment, but only in hindsight, as no one could have predicted a couple of huge issues they had in regard to the existing infrastructure. The information is out there for anyone who cares to look, but most of it isn’t on the kickstarter page.
I have already read those threads. Guess I just got something different out of them. I've been reading them since they first started. I'm well aware of all of the issues they cite as reasons for the delays. If you really read through them, you start to see some inconsistencies. There is absolutely a 0% chance they would have ever delivered on their 1st schedule even if they had been able to make that 1st batch of color reversal film. Maybe they simply weren't aware of exactly how much work the LRF needed.

It's somewhat odd that they keep trying to get backers to take a 1:1 swap of color reversal film awards for P30. The value of a roll of B&W film and color reversal E6 film is very different. Kodak's pricing for Ektachrome 100 is about $14 a roll, while TMAX 100 is about $6 a roll. I assume Ferrania will have a similar pricing range if they ever get their color reversal film on the market. From that viewpoint, a 2:1 swap would be more appropriate. I'm really curious to see what their idea of a "credit" for backers will be in their online store.

I also don't like the statement from Film Ferrania that the money from the Kickstarter was ONLY for the machinery. That isn't true. It was also to produce that first batch of color reversal film:

Quote:
"The reward levels are priced to allow us to create this batch, ship it to you, and have enough left over to purchase the remaining machinery that is most crucial to our long-term success."
Ferrania themselves seem to indicate that the funds were meant to fund that first film batch. Not that it matters much, but just something to keep in mind when people say what the Kickstarter money was intended for. I mean seriously... if the money was meant for machinery, they could have just tried a GoFundMe campaign...

I'd love to see them succeed, especially if someday they can bring back some dead film formats like 126 and 127. But when they say "the factory is ours" and that basically all of their problems have been solved and that they'll be in continuous production by Fall 2018........

It just makes me wonder, due to their past history, what is the problem now? How long can you keep your Kickstarter promise going?
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Old 03-07-2019   #39
fdarnell
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"Go easy, Leonard!"

Think about the "impossible Project". After ten years, I can now go to Target, get a Polaroid branded camera, on sale for a black body no less, some color and black and white film in SX-70 format. All on the shelf, no special order. Yes, it's pricy, but it EXISTS!

These projects take time.

And yes, I'm getting that camera for one simple reason: I can.
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Old 03-07-2019   #40
jsrockit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdarnell View Post
Think about the "impossible Project". After ten years, I can now go to Target, get a Polaroid branded camera, on sale for a black body no less, some color and black and white film in SX-70 format.
Really? ...
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