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Old 05-15-2017   #41
Emile de Leon
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The thing I would worry about if I were an M9 owner is..why exactly now...in other words..why charge for all this right now..as of Aug 2017..when the truth of the matter is..Leica sold M9s with crappy sensors for years...and now want to charge for replacements..when the entire matter was 100% their fault to begin with..
So..
Are they finally running out of sensors..is the day coming soon..when the M9 is going the way of the M8..and suddenly..no sensors available anymore...as in..we aint fixin them anymore...so just..buy an M10..and put your M9 away ..for good..
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Old 05-15-2017   #42
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If you have a sensor replaced in 2015 or earlier just make sure it wasn't replaced with the 'old' sensor.

If it was replaced with the 'old' sensor, have you camera checked for corrosion before august. Not sure how Leica will treat replaced 'old' sensors gone bad. Probably there will be a good arrangement since the problem is almost certainly going to come back with these sensors.
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Old 05-15-2017   #43
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Both my Monochrom and M9-P (corrosion developed after 140 pictures!) are having new sensor replaced but I have to rant here: what a lame **** Leica is!
And I will repeat here what I have written in other thread as well - based on my experience I think that EVERY SINGLE M9 type of camera will develop corrosion sooner or later.
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Old 05-16-2017   #44
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There is no evidence of the corrosion problem being universal. In fact, the number of reports in the forums has dropped to nearly zero. So let's not start a myth. My M9 from 12 September 2009 does not show any trace, for instance.
Having said that, I think Leica lost a lot of credibility by this change of policy - I for one am quite negative about it.
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Old 05-16-2017   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayt View Post
I have a low mileage CCD MM with no issues so far but understand it is inevitable. So I can choose to "upgrade" to a CMOS MM now or later when the problem is confirmed?
Unfortunately, you can't do this a prophylactic basis. They will replace the sensor or offer you the upgrade to the CMOS MM once the symptoms are in.
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Old 05-16-2017   #46
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There is no evidence of the corrosion problem being universal.
Hmmmm...I was under the impression that humidity will eventually corrode the M9/MM CCD sensor. I live in the NYC area, which is hot and humid in the summer. My M9's sensor was corroded after 4 years (admittedly with a few wet cleanings too). My MM still has no symptoms, though I wish it would so that I can get it over with.
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Old 05-16-2017   #47
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Hmmmm...I was under the impression that humidity will eventually corrode the M9/MM CCD sensor. I live in the NYC area, which is hot and humid in the summer. My M9's sensor was corroded after 4 years (admittedly with a few wet cleanings too). My MM still has no symptoms, though I wish it would so that I can get it over with.
I had the same experience but with a Monochrom; two summers in New York, and the rot appeared. Since you live in northern NJ, you should take a quick ride to the Leica repair center there and have them look at it because it may be imperceptible to you or in a location on the sensor not readily noticed. It takes 15 minutes for them to confirm and since the policy has changed, it couldn't hurt. It's residual value with the old sensor will be nil since no one will be willing to risk it.
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Old 05-16-2017   #48
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Out of 9 M9/M9-P/M-E/Monochrom bodies that I owned in last 6 years 7 had sensor replaced. For those 2 remaining I dont know only because I am not in touch with current owners.
Plus I know 6 people around me experiencing corrosion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
There is no evidence of the corrosion problem being universal. In fact, the number of reports in the forums has dropped to nearly zero. So let's not start a myth. My M9 from 12 September 2009 does not show any trace, for instance.
Having said that, I think Leica lost a lot of credibility by this change of policy - I for one am quite negative about it.
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Old 05-16-2017   #49
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Originally Posted by james.liam View Post
I had the same experience but with a Monochrom; two summers in New York, and the rot appeared. Since you live in northern NJ, you should take a quick ride to the Leica repair center there and have them look at it because it may be imperceptible to you or in a location on the sensor not readily noticed. It takes 15 minutes for them to confirm and since the policy has changed, it couldn't hurt. It's residual value with the old sensor will be nil since no one will be willing to risk it.
I will defintely drive over to Allendale to have them check it out prior to my MM's 5th year anniversary. Thanks James.
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Old 05-16-2017   #50
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I think a reasonable hypothesis for the onset of IR filter layer corrosion is:
  • During manufacturing the sensor cover glass coating was misapplied. This resulted in invisible, physical channels for water intrusion (usually in the form of water vapor) that slowly delaminates the IR filter layer. All sensor assemblies in this catagory will eventually become defective. By now, practically all of these will qualify for replacement.

    OR
  • The protective cover glass works as intended. Water vapor can not reach the IR filter glass. The IR filter will retain it's integrety indefinitely. However, if the sensor cover glass coating is compromised due to physical contact (usually during cleaning) water vapor can reach the IR filter and delamination will occur. The rate of corrosion could be very slow when the post-manufacturing cover-glass damage is slight (e.g. an extremely shallow scratch during cleaning).

    Given the reports that some original sensors remain corrosion free, it seems reasonable to assume thermal contraction and expansion alone does not compromise the cover-glass protective coating.

So:

If your M9's original sensor is corrosion free, be extremely careful when it's time to clean it.

After August, do not buy a M9 with an original sensor unless you have about $1K set aside and don't mind waiting for a repair. That said, low levels of delamination are only visible at the narrowest lens apertures. Photographers who rarely use high f stops might be able to avoid replacement for many years.
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Old 05-16-2017   #51
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A little more lead time of the date the change in policy comes into effect might have been helpful. Perhaps to the end of the year?

For those who own an M9 without the sensor replacement it might be prudent to check now. From the Q&A at the Leica announcement it seems that they honor the goodwill program from the date the problem is reported to Leica.
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Old 05-16-2017   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
This does not sound good. Basically, Leica is moving users to the M10.
Hi,

Yes, but... I shall move my M9's lenses to the M2 and the M2 lenses to ebay...

Regards, David
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Old 05-16-2017   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
This does not sound good. Basically, Leica is moving users to the M10.
And perhaps to a Sony A8/9.....

Leica has been building up a LOT of Good Will over the past few years. Do it at cost of parts and 1/4 labor costs as a program.

They will be amazed at how fast Good Will can vaporize in this world of instant gratification.

B2 (;->
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Old 05-16-2017   #54
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It's also the hassle of having to wait 4-5 months in addition to the cost...I don't know about sensors being immune, I thought it's a matter of "when" and not "if"
Jean-Marc,

The wait is actually 6 months, but there is also a list that allows one to keep their camera for 4 months to use. I did this and was told the turnaround would be 8-10 weeks, but it ended up being 12 weeks. Know there are 4.3 weeks in a month.

Of course this was of no cost to me, not even shipping, nada.

So the real wait is just under 3 months in my experience, and only if one gets on this list. I know Mervyn sent his MM in and waited a full six months, but know you don't have to.

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Old 05-16-2017   #55
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Quote:
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And perhaps to a Sony A8/9.....

Leica has been building up a LOT of Good Will over the past few years. Do it at cost of parts and 1/4 labor costs as a program.

They will be amazed at how fast Good Will can vaporize in this world of instant gratification.

B2 (;->
Yeah, I could understand dropping the free repair for second-hand owners. But for original owners?

That's just not right because it's a defective product. One that they kept selling with a commitment to make it good, if necessary.

John
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Old 05-16-2017   #56
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It is not dropped for second hand owners. That would be illegal for a german company and is not stated in Leica's announcement.
It is dropped for cameras with an original purchase date five years ago or more.
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Old 05-16-2017   #57
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This will have to create a few M9 bricks unfortunately ... but not too many hopefully.

As someone pointed out the party couldn't last forever.
Keith,

In my case I am a pleased MM owner who really enjoys my camera. Having my sensor replaced for free (not even charged for shipping), and basically having my 5 year old camera CLA'ed and updated for free was a bonus.

So what I waited 12 weeks. Oh-well.

To bridge me over I ended up buying a Leica SL.

I have no bricks to throw.

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Old 05-16-2017   #58
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Hmmmm...I was under the impression that humidity will eventually corrode the M9/MM CCD sensor.
That is because you read the Internet
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Old 05-16-2017   #59
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Bottom line is..to Leica owners...1K...isn't that big of a deal...not that much to spend on this kind of a fix..it allows Leica to make a profit..and continue in the M business..so you are really just supporting Leica that's all...lol...
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Old 05-16-2017   #60
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It is not dropped for second hand owners. That would be illegal for a german company and is not stated in Leica's announcement.
It is dropped for cameras with an original purchase date five years ago or more.
Yes, upon more careful reading I see that's the case. An important clarification. Thanks.

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Old 05-16-2017   #61
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Yes, upon more careful reading I see that's the case. An important clarification. Thanks.

John
So you can still be an original owner that bought a defective product from Leica and get screwed by them.
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Old 05-16-2017   #62
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On the wait for the sensor replacement service:
On April 16, I joined the "I guess my sensor is toast" thread thinking my sensor failed. On April 17 I overnighted my M9 to Leica NJ as my wife and I are going to Spain in June.
I was shocked when a UPS truck driver knocked on my door on May 8 and there, in a well packed box, was my m9. Looking at the work sheet:

1. Necessary service charge 3 Hrs
2. Leather covering replaced
3. Circuit M9 REV 4 + 5 (sensor replacement)
4. Sealing ring, 1 X 1,5

I was not charged for the service or return shipping. But the positive change here is that the service was done in three weeks. I am speculating that Leica NJ has sensors in stock now and hopefully the turnaround will be much shorter than previously.
I should add that I called Leica NJ and told them of my issues AND my trip to Spain. Then I overnighted the camera to them and that seemed to help.
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Old 05-16-2017   #63
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So you can still be an original owner that bought a defective product from Leica and get screwed by them.
Huss,

That might be the case. Jean-Marc has a MM that might not have any corrosion, and for him the clock is ticking.

I hope it all works out well for him. Also I hope that Leica CCD digital owners got the message that a clock is ticking, and that sometimes good things don't last, meaning a free sensor replacement program.

August is not that far away.

I'm on the other side of coin with a new sensor and CLA for free.

Cal
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Old 05-16-2017   #64
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Leica changes ideas and loses credibility.
A real contract not respected.
This is what he declared in 2014: http://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-...he-CCD-Sensors
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Old 05-16-2017   #65
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Leica changes ideas and loses credibility.
A real contract not respected.
This is what he declared in 2014: http://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-...he-CCD-Sensors
Here what is says in part:

"Leica offers a free replacement service for the CCD sensors of cameras affected by this problem as a goodwill arrangement. This goodwill arrangement applies regardless of the age of the camera and also covers sensors that have already been replaced in the past. Customers who have already been charged for the replacement of a sensor affected by this problem will receive a refund."
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Old 05-16-2017   #66
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Leica changes ideas and loses credibility.
A real contract not respected.
This is what he declared in 2014: http://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-...he-CCD-Sensors
That is indeed the crux of the matter.
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Old 05-16-2017   #67
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The upgrade offers now have more attractive terms but are limited to Typ 240 generation cameras.
So there is even more bad news...
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Old 05-16-2017   #68
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Yeah, but then again LCDs for the M8 are no longer available and people still buy them for around the same price as a few years ago.
Tiny risk with that one.

The sensor corrosion is much closer to inevitable. Leica also promised to cover this issue, and many people bought cameras on this promise knowing about the problem. Now the rules change with a three-month window, which means basically all current owners of cameras with old sensors are screwed one way or another.
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Old 05-16-2017   #69
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Here what is says in part:

"Leica offers a free replacement service for the CCD sensors of cameras affected by this problem as a goodwill arrangement. This goodwill arrangement applies regardless of the age of the camera and also covers sensors that have already been replaced in the past. Customers who have already been charged for the replacement of a sensor affected by this problem will receive a refund."

Leica is setting themselves up for a breach of contract lawsuit. Not a wise move. It's not goodwill when they knowingly continued to sell these cameras with defective sensors, like when I bought my M-E.
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Old 05-16-2017   #70
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Huss...
I'm on the other side of coin with a new sensor and CLA for free.

Cal
It apparently pays to be a vintage hipster!

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Old 05-16-2017   #71
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That is indeed the crux of the matter.
Do we know the date of the 'original promise' to replace the sensor? Was it a contract -- legally binding in perpetuity -- or policy change to address the sensor problem for a period of time that had an end date, at which we have now arrived?
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Old 05-16-2017   #72
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Yes -2014, and there was no end date or reservation specified.
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Old 05-16-2017   #73
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It apparently pays to be a vintage hipster!

Huss,

It pays to be a "lucky" vintage hipster. LOL.

Anyways I hope it works out for my friends Jean-Marc and Allen.

There is still time so don't waste it.

Cal
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Old 05-16-2017   #74
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Yes -2014, and there was no end date or reservation specified.
I guess the point here is a written contract time limited and when does it expire. It would of been wise for Leica to have specified a time limit.

I'm not a lawyer, but it was "goodwill" and I think if there is a/any lawsuit that this one word will be argued extensively.

The point made earlier of knowingly selling a product with a known fault is also a pretty good arguement.

This mess continues...

Cal
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Old 05-16-2017   #75
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The replacement policy was characterized as a goodwill arrangement. Terminating the goodwill arrangement is whatever the opposite of goodwill is called. Bad faith?
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Old 05-16-2017   #76
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That's what I was thinking about, the goodwill part, surely they were only replacing a known defect which was no fault of the owner.
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Old 05-16-2017   #77
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I bought my M9 new in 2010 - so more than 5 years. Sensor was replaced for free just prior to the corrosion issue - March 2014. So I'm not sure if I have the non corrodible sensor or not. Nor do I know if I currently have corrosion.

I'm thinking not to take it in and ride it for as long as it seems ok. By then when I trade it in they might change the trade in from the M240 class to the M10 class.

Can someone post a link to the current, best way to quickly tell if I have corrosion. i.e. is there a technique like shooting at a blank wall and looking for odd blotches or something?

Yeah, I'm not all too pleased to hear this. Funny thing is I've been shooting the M9 more in tandem with my M246 these days and started to feel good about the M9 all over again. At ISO 160 in nice light, I don't think I'd even need the M10! Now I'm peeved about this new policy.
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Old 05-16-2017   #78
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I bought my M9 new in 2010 - so more than 5 years. Sensor was replaced for free just prior to the corrosion issue - March 2014. So I'm not sure if I have the non corrodible sensor or not. Nor do I know if I currently have corrosion.

I'm thinking not to take it in and ride it for as long as it seems ok. By then when I trade it in they might change the trade in from the M240 class to the M10 class.

Can someone post a link to the current, best way to quickly tell if I have corrosion. i.e. is there a technique like shooting at a blank wall and looking for odd blotches or something?

Yeah, I'm not all too pleased to hear this. Funny thing is I've been shooting the M9 more in tandem with my M246 these days and started to feel good about the M9 all over again. At ISO 160 in nice light, I don't think I'd even need the M10! Now I'm peeved about this new policy.
Hi, I don't know if this is a good source or not, but apparently the corrosion can be seen as white spots...

https://petapixel.com/2014/12/10/lei...-replacements/

Probably others here can give further help and links....
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Old 05-16-2017   #79
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Use a blue sky @ f16 as a test shot. Dust will look like - dust. Corrosion spots will have halos around them or look like a row of bubbles. Leica will check your camera for free and clean it at the same time.
Another way to check the sensor is using a microscope.
Consensus - but no certainty- appears to be that the replacement date of a sensor will be the start of a five-year period as well.
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Old 05-16-2017   #80
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I guess the point here is a written contract time limited and when does it expire. It would of been wise for Leica to have specified a time limit.

I'm not a lawyer, but it was "goodwill" and I think if there is a/any lawsuit that this one word will be argued extensively.

The point made earlier of knowingly selling a product with a known fault is also a pretty good arguement.

This mess continues...

Cal
Germany being a country with lawyer on each street corner, the German section of the Leica User Forum is already arguing the merits of legal action. However, the thing that convinced Leica to do the right thing in 2014, apart from the Internet storm, was the real threat of a class action in the USA.
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