M10-P announced
Old 08-20-2018   #1
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M10-P announced

https://leicarumors.com/
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Old 08-20-2018   #2
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$7995 -
"Same sensor, processor, LCD (Gorilla Glass), ISO, connections, frame selector, buffer as the M10."

Read more: https://leicarumors.com/#ixzz5OjYyE7KP
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Old 08-20-2018   #3
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It's not officially announced yet.
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Old 08-20-2018   #4
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While I dearly love the look of the "P" versions of the M9 and now M10, with the old Leica logo on top and no red dot, my wife would kill me if I ever spent $8000 on a camera.

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Old 08-20-2018   #5
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Soooo, $700 more for no red dot and claimed 'silent shutter'.
Seeing I can't tell the difference between the much much quieter shutter on the current M10 vs original M10, I kinda doubt that.

Obviously I'm not in the market, I was for the M240 replacing my M-E, because I could actually see and use the differences between the cameras. I don't see any difference at all in image making capabilities of the current M10 vs M240, so have no interest.
For $8K Leica needs to have a better sensor than what is available in a $1700 Nikon D750 (now available used for $1000).
Let alone a 47mp $3300 Nikon D850.
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Old 08-20-2018   #6
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Huss if low light is needed then there is a noticeable diff between the 240 and the M 10. Also the m 10 is so much more responsive than the 240/262. In my opinion 24mps is plenty. I probably going to pick up another M 10 before the end of the year but it wont be an M10P

Looking forward to seeing what the M10 Mono will be like. I can get very usable files at 20,000 ISO. My 262 3200 is getting a bit dicey. If this mono is like the rest usable 60,000 ISO files in true B&W rangefinder sounds interesting to me.
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Old 08-20-2018   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
Looking forward to seeing what the M10 Mono will be like. I can get very usable files at 20,000 ISO. My 262 3200 is getting a bit dicey. If this mono is like the rest usable 60,000 ISO files in true B&W rangefinder sounds interesting to me.
Do you really shoot at ISO 20,000? From looking at your images, I would not have thought it would be necessary. And ISO 60,000? That's 7-8 stops faster than Tri-X.
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Old 08-20-2018   #8
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I do for some corporate events that I shoot and I if the room has the right quality of light I will shoot 20,000 and I have shot at 12,600 for some annual report work with the M 10.

A real benefit, even if you don't need higher ISO than 3200, is just how much more responsive the M 10 is. No lag like there can be with the 240/262.

For my street work I usually shoot at 1600 and 3200. Sometimes at 6400 but that is usually with my MM. Would be nice to have a bit more for those evening and night shots. To be able to still shoot at 1/000 at f/8 and f/11 would be great.
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Old 08-20-2018   #9
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they went with the giant adjustment screw. bummer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Old 08-20-2018   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Soooo, $700 more for no red dot and claimed 'silent shutter'.
Seeing I can't tell the difference between the much much quieter shutter on the current M10 vs original M10, I kinda doubt that.

Obviously I'm not in the market, I was for the M240 replacing my M-E, because I could actually see and use the differences between the cameras. I don't see any difference at all in image making capabilities of the current M10 vs M240, so have no interest.
For $8K Leica needs to have a better sensor than what is available in a $1700 Nikon D750 (now available used for $1000).
Let alone a 47mp $3300 Nikon D850.
Canon 5D MKII used is available for M10-P to M10 difftence in price and its sensor is as good as M240. I have no plans to leave M-E, but might add 5D MKII naturally once our daughter will decide to sell it.
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Old 08-20-2018   #11
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Originally Posted by aizan View Post
they went with the giant adjustment screw. bummer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Love your ‘emoticon’. I agree they have a problem choosing what to do with the front of the camera. That is my difficulty with the rangefinder Leicas since they dropped the now unnecessary frame line illumination window. All that bare real estate on the face of the top cover: the cameras look like a kid with a cranial deformity however they decorate it. Bold to go big with that screw, and possibly the best solution.
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Old 08-20-2018   #12
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Think I'll be sticking with the MP240 for a good while. May venture into the market the next few months for a used M246, especially if they announce a B&W version of the M10 and those users start trading in bodies.
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Old 08-20-2018   #13
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Dammit. Now I will have to sell ALL my other camera gear.

Except my M9-P. Which I love. But I'd have to sell it too, to get an M10-P.

I wonder how much an engraving job would be on a used silver M10. I know the duct tape for the dot is gonna be cheap...
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Old 08-20-2018   #14
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From a practical point of view, buying an M240 makes much more sense that buying an M10 or M10P for most Leica users. Of course, if you want an M10, then get one.
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Old 08-20-2018   #15
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Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
Huss if low light is needed then there is a noticeable diff between the 240 and the M 10. Also the m 10 is so much more responsive than the 240/262. In my opinion 24mps is plenty. I probably going to pick up another M 10 before the end of the year but it wont be an M10P

Looking forward to seeing what the M10 Mono will be like. I can get very usable files at 20,000 ISO. My 262 3200 is getting a bit dicey. If this mono is like the rest usable 60,000 ISO files in true B&W rangefinder sounds interesting to me.
I get that it may work with how you use your camera, but I like to control my lighting for my projects (I'm not a big street shooter), and in low light use a tripod. I shoot digital the way I shoot film, which is why I shoot film much more! And I don't shoot over 10K ISO (or even over 6K) because quite frankly while one can, it does not look good unless converted to mono.

For my use, I don't notice any difference in responsiveness but I just shoot one shot at a time. I even do that with my D850.
I dunno man, it just seems like for $8K it has nothing to offer to me, at all, that I can get image wise, with a used $2500 M240 let alone any Japanese camera. At regular ISOs there is no difference between the M240 and M10.

And if we are playing the high ISO game/excuse, then we are going to lose heavily to any of the other mainstream mfgs.
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Old 08-20-2018   #16
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Read the website. It's a rumor.
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No announcement, just leaked photos.
Old 08-20-2018   #17
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No announcement, just leaked photos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muser53 View Post
Did you actually read the link? 'The RUMOURED specifications/upgrades from the current M10...'
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Old 08-20-2018   #18
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From a practical point of view, buying an M240 makes much more sense that buying an M10 or M10P for most Leica users. Of course, if you want an M10, then get one.
Ha ha when has any of this been practical. I buy what best works with the way I see and work. I guess finding equipment that does that in the end is practical. I like how simple the menu is on the M 10. 3 buttons on the back and again how responsive it is. I will be getting another M 10 by end of year.
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Old 08-20-2018   #19
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I get that it may work with how you use your camera, but I like to control my lighting for my projects (I'm not a big street shooter), and in low light use a tripod. I shoot digital the way I shoot film, which is why I shoot film much more! And I don't shoot over 10K ISO (or even over 6K) because quite frankly while one can, it does not look good unless converted to mono.

For my use, I don't notice any difference in responsiveness but I just shoot one shot at a time. I even do that with my D850.
I dunno man, it just seems like for $8K it has nothing to offer to me, at all, that I can get image wise, with a used $2500 M240 let alone any Japanese camera. At regular ISOs there is no difference between the M240 and M10.

And if we are playing the high ISO game/excuse, then we are going to lose heavily to any of the other mainstream mfgs.
I like to see the light and if I can't get what I need with available or natural then and only then I will supplement or create it.

Usually it's the other guys saying that Leica doesn't have great ISO performance. The M 10 does have very good ISO performance. Wait 3 weeks and some company will have a camera with better ISO performance than them all. At some point like MPs you have to say when is it all perfectly fine. I think finally with Leica digital it is there with the M 10. At least for me.
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Old 08-21-2018   #20
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Ok now it is real.
https://www.leicastoresf.com/399212
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Old 08-21-2018   #21
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According to Jono Slack, there is more to the M10-P update than just cosmetic frippery:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...ca-m10-p-jono/

I trust Jono's reviews much more than anyone else's. Not that I have any particular need or interest in buying an M10-P at the present time ... I'm quite pleased with the performance of my M-D typ 262 and continue to enjoy using it.

All the caterwauling about stratospheric ISO sensitivity and other geegaws is lost on me: I simply don't care once my equipment does what I want and performs to my satisfaction. Both the Leica M-D and the Leica CL are doing what I want and perform to my satisfaction. I'd much rather invest time and energy into doing photography than whining about the lack of the mythical perfect camera, from Leica or any other manufacturer.

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Old 08-21-2018   #22
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From a purely philosophical standpoint I have always had a hard time paying more than $5,000 for a digital camera so I had to really think hard about dropping even $6,500 on my M10 which I can honestly say it has been worth it.

But $8K for a Leica M digital body? Are they out of their freaking minds?
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Old 08-21-2018   #23
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I am interested in comments on the new, more silent shutter, once people have experienced it.
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Old 08-21-2018   #24
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Do you really shoot at ISO 20,000? From looking at your images, I would not have thought it would be necessary. And ISO 60,000? That's 7-8 stops faster than Tri-X.
The point is not being able to use shutter times and, or apertures that produce a useful rendered image brightness at ISO 20,000.

The point is shadow region rendering will be superior at base ISO (and above). There's no difference between 8 stops of lower exposure for shadow regions in bright scenes and a very dark room where 8 stops of post-acquisition image brightening is required due to shutter time and, or DOF considerations. Under exposure levels are similar and S/N ratios are similar from about ISO 300 through 20,000.

Improvements in a sensor assembly S/N can be useful at every camera ISO setting. The M10's useful analog dynamic range is about 10 1/2 stops (engineering DR would be about 2 stops higher). Shadow regions with 7-8 stops less exposure are not rare.
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Old 08-21-2018   #25
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My pet peeve: Still no sensor cleaning. Ridiculous.
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Old 08-21-2018   #26
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Lets see...added extra cotton on the shutter...put a Home Depot lookin screw on front..and a Home Depot level too..oh yeah..!
Leica is genius at milking a concept...and shearin..the sheep..! lol..
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Old 08-21-2018   #27
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Lets see...added extra cotton on the shutter...put a Home Depot lookin screw on front..and a Home Depot level too..oh yeah..!
Leica is genius at milking a concept...and shearin..the sheep..! lol..
Nikon and Canon aren't doing the same thing? They saturate the market before they upgrade with a camera that is probably a concept that is over a year old so they can get ever nickel out of their current model. At least Leica M are cameras that are not like anything the big two are making. I won't be buying an M10P and I'm not defending the price but I do really like my M 10 (I also paid about what KM25 paid) and a camera like the MM or M-D will probably only be made by Leica.
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Old 08-21-2018   #28
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No manufacturer is ever going to satisfy the bulk of you no matter what they do, so reading all your pent-up angst over a camera's details and/or price is purely for the amusement value; there's no information value in it at all.

Sadly, there's little joy in it either.

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Old 08-21-2018   #29
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Quote:
I am interested in comments on the new, more silent shutter, once people have experienced it.

When interested in silent shutters, have a look at the Fuji X-H1. You can almost get 5 of these for the price of one Leica M10-P.
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Old 08-21-2018   #30
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When interested in silent shutters, have a look at the Fuji X-H1. You can almost get 5 of these for the price of one Leica M10-P.
I am interested from a curiosity sense, not a purchasing sense. I use an XE2/XT2.
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Old 08-21-2018   #31
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My pet peeve: Still no sensor cleaning. Ridiculous.
I wish they had by now an effective sensor cleaner built in.
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Old 08-21-2018   #32
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$8K for a Leica is not news to me.

I believe six years ago I paid $8K for my Monochrom. Some of the best money I ever spent. I still own and love this camera. Kinda primitive and basic, and very much like a film camera (no video). The charm of the original Monochrom is its crudeness.

When is a M10M coming out?

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Old 08-21-2018   #33
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$8K for a Leica is not news to me.

I believe six years ago I paid $8K for my Monochrom. Some of the best money I ever spent. I still own and love this camera. Kinda primitive and basic, and very much like a film camera (no video). The charm of the original Monochrom is its crudeness.

When is a M10M coming out?

Cal
Would you consider upgrading to an M10 Monochrom?
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Old 08-21-2018   #34
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Would you consider upgrading to an M10 Monochrom?
F,

I would have remorse if I didn't keep my Monochrom. It is an important camera for me. I know and realize the M-246 crushes it in so many ways as far as being more advanced, faster, better high ISO...

I do happen to love the CCD rendering which I think is novel, and again I think that one day many others will appreciate and embrace the basic simplicity and primitive nature.

It already is kind of a cult camera that people either love or hate. I love mine warts and all. It is still a great camera and its six years old (sensor replaced in just 12 weeks along with the "free" overhaul and recovering). My original covering was worn smooth is some areas from my fingertips and use of a grip. The anodize is silvery from heavy use especially along the edges.

My hope is that Leica continues to follow the trend and like from the M-240 developed a M-246, except this time goes from M10 to M10P to M10M. I certainly would buy one.

Understand that for color I shoot a SL, and if Leica created a Monochrom SL I certainly would have to buy one. A SLM is not so likely, but a M10M...

So in the end I would buy a new monochome Leica as an addition.

Also know that I still shoot and own my film Leicas.

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Old 08-21-2018   #35
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From a purely philosophical standpoint I have always had a hard time paying more than $5,000 for a digital camera so I had to really think hard about dropping even $6,500 on my M10 which I can honestly say it has been worth it.

But $8K for a Leica M digital body? Are they out of their freaking minds?
I think there is a large, albeit silent contingent of Leica owners (not users..) who like the price hike, because it helps reinforce financial class boundaries.
Only $8000? Well at least that is over twice the price of a proletariat Nikon D850, but let's hope for some special edition models that push the asking price over $10,000.

This is why Leica spends money of glitzy showrooms, but only has one service tech for the entire USA. You're not really meant to take pics with them, but use them as a demonstration of wealth. Taking photos? We hire people to do that for us!
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Old 08-21-2018   #36
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Huh, missed this bit:
"The camera has a body the same thickness as an M7 and has abandoned video (nobody seemed to notice) and much more controversially the level gauge of the M240."

I use that a lot in my M100 (M240 anniversary edition). I had no idea they took content like that OUT of the M10. That makes the M10 a complete deal killer for me. So now I have to pay $8000 to get what I already had in my $3500 M240?
The cynic on me would say that was a deliberate de-contenting move so that Leica can then release an updated model with that put back in as if that was now an advancement. Of course for much more money.

Yeah. No.
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Old 08-21-2018   #37
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From a purely philosophical standpoint I have always had a hard time paying more than $5,000 for a digital camera so I had to really think hard about dropping even $6,500 on my M10 which I can honestly say it has been worth it. But $8K for a Leica M digital body? Are they out of their freaking minds?
Leica raised the price of the M10 from $6500 to $7300 earlier this year, so the price of the M10-P represents only a 10% premium.
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Old 08-21-2018   #38
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I think there is a large, albeit silent contingent of Leica owners (not users..) who like the price hike, because it helps reinforce financial class boundaries.
Only $8000? Well at least that is over twice the price of a proletariat Nikon D850, but let's hope for some special edition models that push the asking price over $10,000.

This is why Leica spends money of glitzy showrooms, but only has one service tech for the entire USA. You're not really meant to take pics with them, but use them as a demonstration of wealth. Taking photos? We hire people to do that for us!
Huss,

Certainly Leica as a brand is a status symbol, but comparing a DSLR with a rangefinder is a bit of a jump for me. Pretty much not the same.

The other half who owns and uses lots of legacy glass is certainly paying the premium for other reasons.

My experience with Leica service has not been so bad as your experiences. My Monochrom sensor replacement took 12 weeks when I was told 10 weeks, but I sent in my camera in a December and as we all know Leica has a holiday shutdown. I even got a shipping label with insurance so pretty much the cost to me was zero.

Also about two years ago I asked to borrow an autofocus lens for my SL. The 50 Lux I had pre-ordered, and I need an AF lens to cover NYC Fashion Week. It cost nothing to ask, but Leica suprised and lent me a AF 24-90 SL lens for nearly three weeks. Again zero cost to me.

When I go to the Leica Store in SoHo the level of support I get is amazing.

Leica gets a bit of a bad rap for all those that waited till the last minute. The crazy long waits for a sensor replacement towards the end of the program is partially due to those who waited till the very end. Procrastinators need to take some responsibility here. I for one took advantage of this free repair and overhaul, but also know that I too did not respond upon the initial offer, and responded about a year later. If I had gotten caught up with the log-jam at the end would not this be my fault?

When I sent my Rollie 3.5F Whiteface to Harry Fleenor and the camera took 12 weeks to get overhauled I didn't mind. When I send a camera to Sherry and it takes two months it is no big deal. Untill I sent my Monochrom in for sensor replacement I had no issues other than the complaint that using continuous would lock up the camera. The obvious workaround is don't shoot with the camera in continuous mode.

The point I made about my Monochrom costing $8K is now, six years later, it is still a great camera, no buyer's remorse for me, and again it was some of the best money I ever spent.

Cal
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Old 08-21-2018   #39
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Leica gets a bit of a bad rap for all those that waited till the last minute. The crazy long waits for a sensor replacement towards the end of the program is partially due to those who waited till the very end. Procrastinators need to take some responsibility here. I for one took advantage of this free repair and overhaul, but also know that I too did not respond upon the initial offer, and responded about a year later. If I had gotten caught up with the log-jam at the end would not this be my fault?l
Leica owners did not wait until the last minute or procrastinate! It's not their fault that Leica abruptly terminated its guarantee and every owner had 120 days to submit their camera for evaluation/repair so they wouldn't be left holding the bag.
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Old 08-21-2018   #40
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Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
Leica owners did not wait until the last minute or procrastinate! It's not their fault that Leica abruptly terminated its guarantee and every owner had 120 days to submit their camera for evaluation/repair so they wouldn't be left holding the bag.
PTP,

You are correct in that Leica could of made better of their "Good Will" and contributed and exacerbated the log-jam that resulted at the end of their Sensor Replacement Program.

I even take ownership that I waited at least a year or longer before sending my Monochrom in for Sensor Replacement.

The point I was trying to make is that there was an envelope that was a lot longer than a year prior to those 120 days final notice, and many people procrastinated-myself included, but I was lucky not have been impacted by the termination of this extension of "Good Will."

Some will argue that this program should of been more open ended or perhaps should have been indefinite, but is that good business or is that being naive? Did owners protect their own best interests, or are they expecting Leica to do that?

How much time would be correct? I stand firm people procrastinated, myself included. It is human nature.

Cal
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