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120 / 220 film RF's 120 / 220 format rangefinders including Fuji, Koni-Omega, Mamiya Press, Linhof 6x7/6x9 cameras, Mamiya 6/7 among others, but excluding the 120 folders and the Voigtlander 667 cameras that have their own forums.

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Simple Medium Format Camera
Old 12-28-2014   #1
aagiv
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Simple Medium Format Camera

I think this is the closest to "correct" forum for me to ask this question. I'm basically looking for the features of the medium format folders, but non-folding. Simple, mechanical, range finder would be great, but scale focus is fine too. What I'm basically picturing is a scaled-up version of a Kodak Retinette, Rollei 35, or similar. Was such a camera ever made? Or did the folders fill that niche exclusively?
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Old 12-28-2014   #2
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The Fuji GW series fits perfectly.
There are several versions from 6x7 to 6x9.
90mm and 65mm fixed lens models.
Fully manual mechanical cameras with coupled Rangefinder focus.
Very very nice results from these big guys.
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Old 12-28-2014   #3
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A Fujica GW690 is pretty simple. Shutter speed, aperture, focussing - other than adding film, that's pretty much all you need to worry about.
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Old 12-28-2014   #4
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I guess I should add that I was hoping for something low cost like the older 35mm cameras. If the Fuji GW series are representative of the medium format options in this category, then they've held their value better (though I suppose the original cost was probably higher too, and of course certain 35mm cameras still hold high value too).
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Old 12-28-2014   #5
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I've seen a gw670ii go for $250. You could probably find one for less but it may be pretty tattered.
The GW690iii has been sold for around $400 several times in the rff classified.

What sort of price are you hoping for?

TLR's can go quite inexpensive. Yashicamats under $75 are pretty common.
The Yashinon lens is as good as any other Tessar. The problem area with Yashicas is the transport.
If you find a healthy one they are great cameras!
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Old 12-28-2014   #6
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Something like this?

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Old 12-28-2014   #7
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Yep, I have a Yashica Mat and a Zeiss Folder. I also enjoy my Kodak Retinette in 35mm. That's what got me looking for something similar in 120. I was hoping to find something in the $100 or less range. If that isn't realistic, then that would explain why I haven't been able to find anything yet.
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Old 12-28-2014   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfox View Post
Something like this?

Yes, that comes close to what I had in mind. A folder without the issues caused by folding. That almost looks like a folder with a solid lens barrel bolted on. What is it?
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Old 12-28-2014   #9
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I hate to say so, but these expanding barrel 6x6es were a cheap substitute for bottom end folders (or a more "real camera like" substitute for box type cameras), and tend to have worse light leak issues than any folder - they usually have no mechanical light trap but rely on felt strips that by now have been flattened to something barely useful.
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Old 12-28-2014   #10
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GW690III user here.
I settled for this camera after seeing that it is practically the only modern 6x6+ 120RF in my budget (<400$).
The mkI and mkII go for lower prices. I've seen user GW690 mk I for around 250$); If you get one from Japan, mind customs however.
The 670 version is rarer, and as it is the same body as the 6x9 and I'd stick to the latter.

It isn't a compact camera however! Ergonomics wise it is like an enlarged 35mm RF.
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Old 12-28-2014   #11
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The Fuji's are great. There is also the Mamiya Press series that sometimes come around for not much money. They are even larger than the Fuji's but also good fun. But 100 or less is at the very low side for this sort of cameras.
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Old 12-28-2014   #12
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Agfa Isoly III



Agfa Isoly III by alf sigaro, on Flickr
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Old 12-28-2014   #13
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googled it up and found the d'assas norlin. could be neat.

fuji gs645s, fuji ga645
holga, diana, lubitel
brownie, altissa, perfekta
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Old 12-28-2014   #14
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The Apotar is a well-designed triplet and should give you decent photos. When Zeiss Ikon stopped making medium format folding cameras, it stopped making medium format cameras altogether.

I have a Braun Paxina with a collapsible lens. It is very similar to the camera that Shadowfox has. It has a three-element f/2.9 lens in a four-speed Pronto shutter (no slow speeds).

There weren't many simple non-folding medium format cameras with excellent lenses - it is contradictory from a marketing standpoint.
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Old 12-28-2014   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevo View Post
I hate to say so, but these expanding barrel 6x6es were a cheap substitute for bottom end folders (or a more "real camera like" substitute for box type cameras), and tend to have worse light leak issues than any folder - they usually have no mechanical light trap but rely on felt strips that by now have been flattened to something barely useful.
On the other hand they are often so little used that the felt hasn't flattened... An idea occurs to me, though. Why not buy a retractable-lens camera like the one illustrated and fix the tube in the "out" position? Then light-seal the tube from the inside of the camera. Bulky and crude, it's true, but cheap, too.

Note to OP: watch out for 620 cameras that won't take 120 unless modified -- but Kodak's Medalist can be modified, and when properly lubricated, often works. Not cheap, though.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 12-28-2014   #16
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I have an Isoly III just like the one pictured. Although it uses 120 film the format is 4X4 not 6X6 (actual size of mine is 41X41mm) 6X6 is 56X56mm. This means it gets 16 exposures on a roll of 120.

I was about suggest a Zeiss Nettar but you you say you already have a folder. I have a nice compact Nettar but it has the lowest grade lens/shutter supplied at that time, a 75mm f6.3 triplet with a 3 speed +B Vario shutter. Ok stopped down to f11 I suppose. I would like to have the model with the 75mm f4.5 lens and better shutter but have not found one. The lens standard on my Nettar seems solid when in place, there is no wiggle. All in all a compact, neat little camera for less than the price of a new Holga 120N.
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Old 12-28-2014   #17
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A Holga?
I've seen them available new in the UK for £25.
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Old 12-28-2014   #18
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You could try an Agfa Clack. If you Think of at as a 6x9 Holga.... it's actually not pretty good
photo-11 by Adnan W, on Flickr
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Old 12-28-2014   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
You could try an Agfa Clack. If you Think of at as a 6x9 Holga.... it's actually not pretty good
Still better than a Holga.
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Old 12-28-2014   #20
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Still better than a Holga.

True that. I actually quite like them. I have two that get used for a few rolls per year.
Fun to use and give a sort of unique look that works for some things.
Better for B+W than the Hoga. I prefer the Holga for color.
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Old 12-28-2014   #21
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Ilford sporti?
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Old 12-28-2014   #22
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Thanks, guys. Lots of good input here. I'll keep watching to see if anyone has anything else to add, but it looks like I'll be sticking with what I have or saving up for a Fuji GW. Wish there was a 6x6 version though.
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Old 12-28-2014   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
On the other hand they are often so little used that the felt hasn't flattened... An idea occurs to me, though. Why not buy a retractable-lens camera like the one illustrated and fix the tube in the "out" position? Then light-seal the tube from the inside of the camera. Bulky and crude, it's true, but cheap, too.

Note to OP: watch out for 620 cameras that won't take 120 unless modified -- but Kodak's Medalist can be modified, and when properly lubricated, often works. Not cheap, though.

Cheers,

R.
I have a few of these Gugo/ Goldeck cameras. The point about keeping the tube in the extended position all the time is valid. On top of that, there is an easy, mess-free way to prevent light leaks: use a black elastic hairband and wrap it twice around the barrell. (I got this idea from using Neil van Niekerk's "Black Foamy Thing" flag).

I was not expecting much, but the image quality really surprised me.

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Old 12-28-2014   #24
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I'm a huge fan of the Fujica 670/680/690 series of cameras, and they are indeed simple mechanical rangefinder medium format machines.

However, since they require interchangeable rangefinder eye pieces for all lenses other than the 100 and 150mm lenses, I'd consider the Rittreck/Warner/Norita/Graflex Norita 6X6 cameras as simpler, truly scaled up 35mm designs.

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Old 12-28-2014   #25
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You didn't say why you have an apparent aversion to folders. Even the least expensive Zeiss Ikon folders are really well made and rock solid, decades later. I have a prewar Nettar that is a great picture taker -- no wobble whatsoever. The three element Zeiss lenses in these cameras (Novars usually) will surprise you with how good they are.

Even more simple -- maybe too simple! -- have you thought of a box camera? Check out the postwar ZI Box Tengor. Slow Frontar cemented doublet lens, but with limited zone focusing. But again, you will be surprised at how good the 6x9 pictures are.
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Old 12-28-2014   #26
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I've gotten excellent results with my Bencini Koroll 120 on T-Max 100 with a yellow filter.


00790005_1 by br1078phot, on Flickr

It's a collapsible dual-format model (6x6 and 6x4.5) that comes in a few versions http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Bencini_Koroll Limited on shutter speed and aperture, with scale focusing, and a killer cast aluminum alloy body. No problem with light leaks from mine.

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Old 12-28-2014   #27
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I have a Koroll 24s, which shoots 24 frames on a roll of 120. Still haven't finished the roll though. Rather limited with only two apertures and scale focusing. Some of the later models had several shutter speeds greatly increasing the flexibility of the camera.

I will also add that cheaper TLRs are often great performers! Companies decided to cut costs by dropping features rather than sacrificing quality. If you can live without a built in meter or automatic frame counting there are plenty of TLRs that will deliver good results for very little money. Super Ricohflex, Reflekta II, Yashica A or C, and others.
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Old 12-29-2014   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
You didn't say why you have an apparent aversion to folders. Even the least expensive Zeiss Ikon folders are really well made and rock solid, decades later. I have a prewar Nettar that is a great picture taker -- no wobble whatsoever. The three element Zeiss lenses in these cameras (Novars usually) will surprise you with how good they are.
No particular aversion to folders. I like my Nettar, I had just wondered about similar rigid body cameras. It looks like most of the lower end non-folding cameras have less aperture and shutter control than even my pre-war Nettar and tend towards the "toy camera" category.
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Old 12-29-2014   #29
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Originally Posted by Greyscale View Post
Agfa Isoly III



Agfa Isoly III by alf sigaro, on Flickr
when looking here
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agfa_Isoly
the apotar-driven isoly is IIIa
I have the agnar 60/3.5 driven III.
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Old 12-29-2014   #30
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Originally Posted by farlymac View Post
I've gotten excellent results with my Bencini Koroll 120 on T-Max 100 with a yellow filter.
PF
Now I want one of those...
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Old 12-29-2014   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aagiv View Post
I think this is the closest to "correct" forum for me to ask this question. I'm basically looking for the features of the medium format folders, but non-folding. Simple, mechanical, range finder would be great, but scale focus is fine too. What I'm basically picturing is a scaled-up version of a Kodak Retinette, Rollei 35, or similar. Was such a camera ever made? Or did the folders fill that niche exclusively?
Why not get a TLR, if it's mostly function you want?

My Beautyflex with a 3.5/80mm Biokor lens was cheap and is very good.
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Old 12-29-2014   #32
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Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
You could try an Agfa Clack. If you Think of at as a 6x9 Holga.... it's actually not pretty good
photo-11 by Adnan W, on Flickr
That's cute, in a weird Germanic way... :-)

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Old 12-29-2014   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannielscom View Post
Why not get a TLR, if it's mostly function you want?

My Beautyflex with a 3.5/80mm Biokor lens was cheap and is very good.
Already have a Yashica Mat. I just liked using my Kodak Retinette (scale focus 35mm) for some things. I'll just carry on with my Nettar for a similar function.
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Old 12-29-2014   #34
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The new Lomo LC120 may fit the bill...
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Old 12-29-2014   #35
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Yes, that comes close to what I had in mind. A folder without the issues caused by folding. That almost looks like a folder with a solid lens barrel bolted on. What is it?
It's called Goldammer Gugo with Bayreuth Steiner lens.
Uncommon, if not rare.

Here's a sample picture:



A good folder like Konica Pearl would produce a much better result that this camera.
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Old 12-30-2014   #36
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I love this question because I have long had a "thing" for simple old medium format cameras. Your observation is correct that the "viewfinder" genre - compact, lightweight, fixed lens, non-folding (but often with a pull-out lens tube) - tends towards the lower end. Most models come equipped with only a very basic (meniscus or doublet) lens and little if any control over aperture or shutter speed. However, some manufacturers did in fact produce more upscale versions of their basic models; versions with better lenses, a more or less standard type of leaf shutter with multiple speeds, wide range of apertures, larger maximum aperture and so forth, as well as other "normal" camera features. Here are some examples I am aware of that you might consider:

Agfa Isoly III - Comes with Agnar or Apotar lens (both f/3.9) and Pronto shutter. As mentioned by others already, unusual in that it takes "4x4" pictures on 120 film, which you may or may not like.
Agfa Isola II - Agnar 6.3 lens is better than you might think. With only three aperture stops and two shutter speeds (+bulb) this might still be too limiting for you. But it is a favorite of mine due to it's compact simplicity and stylish (IMO) design.
Braun Paxina - several models including versions named simply Paxina, and also Paxina 29 and 35. The faster lensed versions are in the range of f/2.8 to f/3.5. Shutters range from simple Varios up to Pronto and Prontor SVS with full range of apertures and speeds.
Braun Gloria - Has a rangefinder! 75mm f/2.9 Praxar or Praxanar lens (triplet). Again, Pronto or Pronto SVS shutter. The Paxinas and Glorias seem a little bulky looking IMO compared to some of the others and may handle as such, but then again that may be a worthwhile compromise for the feature set.
Dacora Digna - Better lenses are the Enna Correlar 80mm/2.9 or Dignar 75mm/4.5, both of which are triplets. Shutter is a Pronto or Prontor SVS.
Goldammer Goldeck - Over the years Goldammer made many different versions of the same basic model, with different lenses and features. The top one as far as I know was the first version of the Goldeck model which came with a Steiner 75mm/2.9 lens in a Prontor SVS shutter. Be aware that there are versions of these cameras labeled "Richard Six" (for the British market?), including some with the same specs as the Goldeck models.
Rodehuser Panta - the third version of this camera is the most fully featured, with a Steinar 76mm/3.5 lens (triplet?) and a Prontor-S shutter.
Vredeborch Nordina - A little more upscale than the Felica-series, the Nordina has a Steiner V 75mm /4.5 lens in a Vario shutter. This has a full aperture range but limited to 3 speeds (plus bulb), so maybe not quite as fully featured as you would like.

Typically fewer of the nicer models were made, and that makes them harder to find today. But they are out there if you look long enough.
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Old 12-30-2014   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
You didn't say why you have an apparent aversion to folders. Even the least expensive Zeiss Ikon folders are really well made and rock solid, decades later. I have a prewar Nettar that is a great picture taker -- no wobble whatsoever. The three element Zeiss lenses in these cameras (Novars usually) will surprise you with how good they are.

Even more simple -- maybe too simple! -- have you thought of a box camera? Check out the postwar ZI Box Tengor. Slow Frontar cemented doublet lens, but with limited zone focusing. But again, you will be surprised at how good the 6x9 pictures are.
Not all of them.

In any case, I've found -- as a wild generalization, but based on decades of experience -- that cheaper Zeiss Ikon folders tend to have kept their rigidity better than expensive ones (Super Ikontas) simply because they were used less, and therefore less knocked about. The same is true of Voigtländers, though again as a wild generalization, they're better made and more rigid than Zeiss. After 50+ years, much more depends on how hard they were used than on how good they were to begin with.

I'll second your point about the better box cameras, though. And Johan's point about TLRs.

Cheers,

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Old 12-30-2014   #38
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Roger,

my Super Ikonta B's are rock solid, the Nikkormats of 120 folders so to speak. Even after extensive use.

Thanks for bringing them up, for a moment I was tempted to scout for a Dacora Digna, but between the Super Ikontas, the Beautyflex and my Hasselblad, what do I need a Dacora for...?

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Old 12-31-2014   #39
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Why not go large format, it's easy:

https://wanderlustcameras.com
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Old 12-31-2014   #40
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@ Roger - The Zeiss Ikon folders that I used, to me at least, seem to be more solidly built than Voigtlander's offerings - especially in the locking of the front standards when the front platform is extended.

I do agree with regards to folders, it's nice to find one that has only seen a few rolls - in other words only light use. Also, get one that is easy to CLA to get rid of any grunge in the optics, to include the finder and get the shutter up to speed.

With that said, I have two Voigtlander folders. On the Bessa II, I certainly wish the focusing was designed to use a set of geared tracks similar to a Welta Weltur or larger Graflex 2x3.
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