Fujifilm price increases
Old 07-12-2015   #1
colyn
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Fujifilm price increases

Supposedly from Fuji...

http://photorumors.com/2015/07/11/an...-discontinued/
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Old 07-12-2015   #2
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The notice is confusing. Does it look like acros is being cut.... Price cut?
I'm looking on my mobile.
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Old 07-12-2015   #3
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The notice is confusing. Does it look like acros is being cut.... Price cut?
"CUT" is in the film size column. It obviously is a bad translation for "sheet film".
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Old 07-12-2015   #4
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Confusing to say the least. Reading the news on a smart phone with it's limitations i first thought that Acros in 135 and 120 had been cut and almost panicked and was getting ready to stock up. I hope it will be around for a few more years.
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Old 07-12-2015   #5
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I just sold over 300 rolls of acros because it was expired or expiring soon ($3-$3.50 per roll like a fool!).
When I saw that cut I just about lost it
Love the across... I hope they never give up on it!

steering. by Adnan, on Flickr
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Old 07-12-2015   #6
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Looks like a classic 'death spiral'.
Demand decreases so that production volume must decrease.
This leads to higher prices per unit that causes customers to shift to alternative supply.
This further limits demand with more production cuts which increases unit prices again and so it continues until there is no longer enough demand to continue production on any scale.
End of story.......
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Old 07-12-2015   #7
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Come to think of it this might not be the "End of story..."
Because. If company 'A' goes into death spiral then company 'B' could become the 'alternative supply' with a product that, if not identical, is a good enough substitute. Therefore company 'A's death spiral could enable company 'B' to increase sales and at least save the product line from extinction.
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Old 07-12-2015   #8
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There is no company B for color film.
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Old 07-12-2015   #9
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There is no company B for color film.
Forgive me my black and white brain. I sometimes forget there are still color negative and color slide shooters.
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Old 07-12-2015   #10
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Me too, I use mostly use black and white films, and I don't use digital for colour like many. Fujifilm died in my heart the day they discontinued the Neopan 1600.

Sorry to hear the bad news to whom it matters. As to my needs, colour print films and slide films are totally substitute goods. If both Kodak and Fuji stop making colour films, someone else will. It is the beauty of capitalism.
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Old 07-12-2015   #11
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I doubt Fuji is going under. As with everything price goes up when the economy makes the slightest change..
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Old 07-12-2015   #12
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Here's hoping that Film Ferrania is "Company B" for color film.
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Old 07-12-2015   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colyn View Post
I doubt Fuji is going under. As with everything price goes up when the economy makes the slightest change..
When I mentioned death spiral I was only thinking about their film division. Their company profit margins would probably improve if they finally decided to quit film. Interestingly I believe their instant film sales are robust and doing well. So it is not all doom and gloom for their film division.
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Old 07-12-2015   #14
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Photo film accounts for about 2% of Fujifilm's business now as I remember from reading their detailed stockholder information. Fujifilm is a very profitable company. If the tiny division that makes photo film ceases to be profitable, it will be closed so the company will remain very profitable.

Regarding letters encouraging them to support film manufacture, please remember their sole business objective is to create long term economic return for their stockholders. Keeping film users happy is simply not a part of their objectives. So total sales of a particular film, and the resultant profitability, is the only thing that determines if a film stays in production.
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Old 07-12-2015   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Michaels View Post
Regarding letters encouraging them to support film manufacture, please remember their sole business objective is to create long term economic return for their stockholders. Keeping film users happy is simply not a part of their objectives. So total sales of a particular film, and the resultant profitability, is the only thing that determines if a film stays in production.
As much as what you say sounds reasonable, I hope you are wrong!
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Old 07-12-2015   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Michaels View Post
Photo film accounts for about 2% of Fujifilm's business now as I remember from reading their detailed stockholder information.
Your memory is quite accurate. In FY2011, photographic film sales (that thin sliver in the green part of the pie on the right) accounted for just 1% of total sales. Down from 19% of total sales in 2001! I assume that this number has continued to decline in the ensuing four years.

Source of the graph is here.

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Old 07-13-2015   #17
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Well I quit smoking four months ago which leaves me with au $80 a week for film, chemicals and paper.

She'll be right mate.
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Old 07-13-2015   #18
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Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
Your memory is quite accurate. In FY2011, photographic film sales (that thin sliver in the green part of the pie on the right) accounted for just 1% of total sales. Down from 19% of total sales in 2001! I assume that this number has continued to decline in the ensuing four years.

Source of the graph is here.

Fuji, just like Kodak, has to downsize their film manufacturing facility *if* they chose to continue making it. Because Fuji is different than Kodak, I hope they already make some adjustments to this effect.

I imagine downsizing at that scale would be a costly venture that would only pass through shareholder meetings if they perceive that Fuji -- film division -- can still make a small but sustainable profit in the years to come. Not only that, there has to be also a common enough "For the love of film" persuasion (or vibe) within the company for this to happen at all.

It's heartbreaking for those of us who appreciate film photography. I just hope that we don't rob future generations from this wonderful part of photography history.
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Old 07-13-2015   #19
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No worries .... when all their cheap nasty little digital cameras fail in the market the tech department will be beating at the door of the film division, begging to be let back in!
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Old 07-13-2015   #20
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Sucks that Fuji seems to be pricing themselves out of the market, but hopefully smaller companies like Foma, Ilford and Ferrania that are more committed to film will benefit from the extra customers. Bit sad about the Acros though, I think I'll be switching to Foma (which is half the price as it is).
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Old 07-13-2015   #21
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No worries .... when all their cheap nasty little digital cameras fail in the market the tech department will be beating at the door of the film division, begging to be let back in!
All in all, digital sucks. Future generations will be drinking the Kool-Aid with no nutritional substance. IMHO... don't start the debate again, please.!

After shooting digital professionally for a decade I started mixing film back in before the 2008 recession. Only now am I beginning to develop my own film.

Thanks to Lynn and others, I am now 99% shooting film and developing my own has given me an epiphany which I shared with Lynn:

"With my own life like a hooker's drawers, up down up down up down... I wish the world around us was more stable.

Developing my own film also has me looking at the significance of film photography as well. After a decade of all digital work, and I learned a lot, I now see film photography as good for the soul as it is more like a marriage. Every time I shoot digitally, I feel there is a lot missing. Film photography must be like sharing life with one's loved one in total commitment and bonding. Digital photography is a bit like having an affair with a hooker, I suppose, with very little commitment and constant searching for the next level of gratification."

Just my own opinion...

I have started to stock up on film and truly hope Acros is around a very long time.
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Old 07-13-2015   #22
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Next day when there is no demand for RTG film materials FOMA will be closed.

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Originally Posted by nongfuspring View Post
Sucks that Fuji seems to be pricing themselves out of the market, but hopefully smaller companies like Foma, Ilford and Ferrania that are more committed to film will benefit from the extra customers. Bit sad about the Acros though, I think I'll be switching to Foma (which is half the price as it is).
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Old 07-13-2015   #23
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Film, of some kind, will survive as long as there are folks not price sensitive to ever rising film costs. Far more of a danger to film shooting, in my mind, is the eventual lack of working film cameras. We might have another generation or so before there are neither parts to repair them or people with the skill (or desire) to repair them.

Hope I'm wrong; but, I don't see a new generation of people coming up learning to repair these old cameras. Most of the ones I know about are not spring chickens.
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Old 07-13-2015   #24
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Film, of some kind, will survive as long as there are folks not price sensitive to ever rising film costs. Far more of a danger to film shooting, in my mind, is the eventual lack of working film cameras. We might have another generation or so before there are neither parts to repair them or people with the skill (or desire) to repair them.

Hope I'm wrong; but, I don't see a new generation of people coming up learning to repair these old cameras. Most of the ones I know about are not spring chickens.
JP,

I'm with you. I have a stockpile of cameras that will get me through my lifetime (57 now). Also know that all my cameras have been overhauled and are fresh.

The cost of film has gone up a lot from when I could buy rebranded Acros from Freestyle that was short dated for $1.89 a roll. I'm still shooting the last of that batch of film. My plan "B" is to shoot Pan F at 80 ISO in Microphen and save a dollar a roll when I can. For night shooting using bulb exposures there is no replacement for Acros.

Really glad I had the wisdom to shoot as much film as possible when it was cheap and inexpensive. Film is still affordable, but just not so inexpensive. I'll save more to spend more on continuing to shoot as much film as I can...

Cal
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Old 07-13-2015   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
No worries .... when all their cheap nasty little digital cameras fail in the market the tech department will be beating at the door of the film division, begging to be let back in!
I heard that Fujifim's "film division" consists of two old guys sitting near the window waiting for retirement. I just made that up

Wait, no I didn't... ok I embellished somewhat with the "sitting near the window waiting for retirement" bit, but I really did hear from a certain well connected someone who shall remain nameless that the film division consists of just two older employees.
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Old 07-13-2015   #26
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It's purely a business decision from Fuji, they're a profitable company and could choose to subsidize the film division. Kodak was close to dying yet they still made color film, Fuji is a far healthier company. I don't think it's entirely about numbers

While I'm glad to pay the price of film if it means supporting companies like Ilford, Fuji's prices do seem abusive. But I'm not an economist
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Old 07-13-2015   #27
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Originally Posted by Lauffray View Post
While I'm glad to pay the price of film if it means supporting companies like Ilford, Fuji's prices do seem abusive. But I'm not an economist
How I see it, money one pays to Ilford goes into film production, money one pays for Fuji film may go into other areas they are working in so it's hard to see return. Sounds silly oversimplified, I admit. If Fuji will end raising film prices and making more new cameras, I'd rather buy film from someone for who film is main business.

That said, Fuji makes excellent films but at this point changes are approaching.
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Old 07-13-2015   #28
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It's purely a business decision from Fuji, they're a profitable company and could choose to subsidize the film division. Kodak was close to dying yet they still made color film, Fuji is a far healthier company. I don't think it's entirely about numbers

While I'm glad to pay the price of film if it means supporting companies like Ilford, Fuji's prices do seem abusive. But I'm not an economist
Jerome,

As an American the strong U.S. dollar benefits my purchasing power, and remember commodities like silver are priced in U.S. dollars. Although silver is only about $15.00 an ounce, understand that the Yen exchange rate presently is at a record low.

Similarly I'm thinking of speculating on buying Canadian "Loonies" if oil drops below $50.00 a barrel again. I will spend those "Loonies" eventually when oil recovers and the Loonie again hits parity with the U.S. Dollar. I figure I will visit Montreal again when this happens. For me my position is a really big gain and no taxes on my gains, and for me it is a game of just sit and wait.

Since you live in Montreal and often visit NYC you should consider this ploy when the Canadian Dollar gains strength due to commodities exports. Use these long term swings to your benefit in a converse manner.

Cal
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Old 08-04-2015   #29
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Fujifilm Europe said that the price increase is Japan only, at least Europe will not be affected.
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Old 08-04-2015   #30
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Last I paid 15 euro for a 135 roll of Provia 100F, that was a good increase. And the 120 roll of Provia 100 at 8.8 euro makes it that I think twice about putting a roll into a 6x9 camera. As I have no interest in b&w this means that if Ferrania doesn't take over at a more affordable pricepoint it stops for me when the freezer is empty.

They clearly want to get out and wring the last drop out of their customers. Wouldn't surprise me if they closed the production and just continue to sell the stock in the freezers. So the rumour of 2 old guys running the film division might be closer to the truth than I want it to be.
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Old 08-04-2015   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
I heard that Fujifim's "film division" consists of two old guys sitting near the window waiting for retirement. I just made that up

Wait, no I didn't... ok I embellished somewhat with the "sitting near the window waiting for retirement" bit, but I really did hear from a certain well connected someone who shall remain nameless that the film division consists of just two older employees.
Don't discount that. I was looking up the published filter factors for TMY and TX and saw that the TMY data sheet still says something like "preliminary indications are that the old factors should still be valid" (for a "new" version of the film that is now 6 years old).

The silver-based industry is largely on autopilot, mostly running on products and technologies that haven't changed since the mid-1990s (and in far fewer products than existed back then). And in some cases, media is being manufactured on rickety old equipment that should it suffer significant failure, is not likely to be replaced. No one is going to build a new billion-dollar coating plant like Kodak did in the early 2000s.

Film won't fade away for quite some time, or maybe ever, but I'd predict that where FX digital owns 35mm color film in terms of resolution and dynamic range, the future is in medium format - where the return on the user's time investment is much greater.

Dante
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Old 08-04-2015   #32
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Film won't fade away for quite some time, or maybe ever, but I'd predict that where FX digital owns 35mm color film in terms of resolution and dynamic range, the future is in medium format - where the return on the user's time investment is much greater.

Dante
1/125th is 1/125th, be it 135 or 120 or 4x5. And the time to develp is just as long.
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Old 08-05-2015   #33
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1/125th is 1/125th, be it 135 or 120 or 4x5. And the time to develp is just as long.
If am a going to devote a Saturday afternoon to developing 20 rolls of film, I'd much rather spend it on 160 frames of 6x9, with far less grain, far more tonality, and with modern lenses, far more resolving power per frame.

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Old 08-05-2015   #34
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Fuji, just like Kodak, has to downsize their film manufacturing facility *if* they chose to continue making it. Because Fuji is different than Kodak, I hope they already make some adjustments to this effect.

I imagine downsizing at that scale would be a costly venture that would only pass through shareholder meetings if they perceive that Fuji -- film division -- can still make a small but sustainable profit in the years to come. Not only that, there has to be also a common enough "For the love of film" persuasion (or vibe) within the company for this to happen at all.

It's heartbreaking for those of us who appreciate film photography. I just hope that we don't rob future generations from this wonderful part of photography history.
Fuji's roll film manufacturing is so tiny now as to an infinitesimal part of their bottom line. The issue is not keeping it going but any upgrades or repairs necessary to keep their Thailand plant operational without losing $$$. Not an issue for shareholders; much too small for that. The vast majority of share owners are institutional. No sentiments or nostalgia there.
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Old 08-05-2015   #35
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There are other types of coated film besides photographic film. Some former film production facilities now make bioscience detectors or display components. It is possible to operate a plant that can make photographic as well as technical films (Inoviscoat does exactly that), so there are other options besides downsizing...
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Old 08-05-2015   #36
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Fuji's roll film manufacturing is so tiny now as to an infinitesimal part of their bottom line. The issue is not keeping it going but any upgrades or repairs necessary to keep their Thailand plant operational without losing $$$. Not an issue for shareholders; much too small for that. The vast majority of share owners are institutional. No sentiments or nostalgia there.
It does not compute. If there is zero nostalgia and the profits are insignificant, why keep the plants alive then?
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Old 08-05-2015   #37
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It does not compute. If there is zero nostalgia and the profits are insignificant, why keep the plants alive then?
Ego. Film is in Fuji's corporate name. They can probably get away with even a small loss. But not a big one.

D
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Old 08-06-2015   #38
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Because likely the same plant also makes Instax and that is doing very well right now. Fuji still makes other special films like X-ray film. Again likely the same plant. As long as the photo films don't go under 0 it just adds to the total so no reason to close down. Once it becomes a liability they will go.
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Old 08-06-2015   #39
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Ferrania has hit roadblocks, but they are an inspiring bunch. I don't use much slide film, but I will make a point of using their products once available:

http://www.filmferrania.it/news/2015/the-domino-effect
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Old 08-06-2015   #40
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It does not compute. If there is zero nostalgia and the profits are insignificant, why keep the plants alive then?
It's a sunk cost.

Film revenues are now so small they don't even make the annual financial statements.

Roll film is inconsequential to the company's bottom line. They have a very small sideline bi with he Instax.
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