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View Poll Results: Is the Sony RX1R II a Leica Q killer ?
No Way - the cameras are substantially different 84 62.69%
Definitely - why buy the more expensive Q now? 50 37.31%
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Old 12-03-2015   #81
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Originally Posted by BlackXList View Post
Between the brands I'd much rather go with Sony than Leica. I have an RX100, I've not noticed any of the menu problems people complain about from Sony, but then I was born in 1980, so perhaps I'm just used to it.
Haters gonna hate, hate, hate

When menus are the biggest problem, the camera must be good. But people hated the NEX menu system, I still don't understand why - it worked fine for me. And I didn't even grow up with "my first Sony"

Looking forward to the Sony RX1 mark II vs Leica Q shoot out!
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Old 12-04-2015   #82
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For me, it would be the Q, solely because of the Focal length.

Between the brands I'd much rather go with Sony than Leica. I have an RX100, I've not noticed any of the menu problems people complain about from Sony, but then I was born in 1980, so perhaps I'm just used to it.

The real Q killer for me though is the Ricoh GR.
It's APSC, it has a slower lens, but my god it's good, and I could shoot 6 of them to destruction for the price of a Q.
I can see where you are coming from... I ordered the RX1R II but the Q is sexier. I also feel like the GR is the better fit for me for 28mm. I don't have an issue with Sony menus because I don't need to access them much. But Sony cameras don't feel so great in the hand IMO. The results are nice though and having 42mp, a relatively fast zeiss lens, high ISO, an EVF, and wide dynamic range in a tiny camera is just crazy to me. Most likely could make usable 4x6 foot prints.
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Old 12-04-2015   #83
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On the feel of Sony cameras; my RX100 has Aki Asahi skins on the front and top plate, it makes it handle a million times better than when it comes out of the box.

I could say that it's bad that I have to add things to it, in order to get proper handling, but then I put a thumbs up on my GR and it makes an already great camera truly wonderful.

The menu thing, I do understand the frustration people feel when it feels like the camera is getting in their way, or is laid out in a way that feels counter intuitive, I don't get along with cameras that have an uncoupled light meter because taking a reading, then transferring it, then recomposing just throws me off, and I can't get comfortable.
Equally, the Canon EOS M with 22mm lens is one of the most unhelpful, frustrating pieces of equipment I've ever attempted to use, and I HATE the touch screen, based on that experience, I don't ever want a touch screen on a camera.

So there's definitely something to be said for good vs bad design/menu design, and if people feel the camera gets in their way, then I can understand that too.

It's just not something I've come across in my (limited) experience with Sony cameras, I've been able to put the only options I need in easily accessible places, and get on with shooting.
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Old 12-05-2015   #84
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Anyone who buys a Leica Q over Sony RX1R II must have a good reason to pay a $1000 more for almost half the resolution.
It may have more resolution, but will it render more/better detail in print? I doubt it. Sony may have the sensor technology, but Leica/Panasonic have the microlens patents - and those count.
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Old 12-05-2015   #85
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I voted no. Different cameras for different types of people. If I had more money I would buy the Q. I was going to, but then they came out with the Typ 262. So I am saving up for that instead to replace my M8.

I have not yet handled the Q, but if it is like the X Vario, which it seems to be, than I'd say it is 10x better than the RX1R Mk II. I never got on with the RX1 ergonomics. The lens is too big and the grip side is too cramped. Came close to buying it a couple of times, especially now that you can get one in mint condition for half price, but every time I hold it, I hate it. The X Vario, though, I hated the paper specs but in person, whoah. I loved it the minute I picked one up in my hand.

I have the A5100. It takes good photos and even better videos, but I don't enjoy shooting with it. With M mount lenses it's fiddly and the haptics are not enjoyable to use. With native OSS lenses it's a simple point and shoot, and I bought it mainly for video so it's not much of a concern to me. The Ricoh GXR is far better, feels more like a camera than a computing device. And I prefer the Mode 2 peaking feature of the GXR 100x more than the A5100's.
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Old 12-05-2015   #86
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But people hated the NEX menu system, I still don't understand why - it worked fine for me.
Good for you. I found it terrible - and now I have a 5N with a dead menu button that makes the system even worse. The NEX is a menu-driven system. It's not really a set-up-once-and-forget-it type of deal if you use the cameras capabilities extensively. It is also complicated and weirdly organized. Depending on what you are doing, you need to dive in and out of the sub lists found under the major menu icons. It's slow when you need to work fast.

Sony has since dumbed the hated NEX menu structure. And the one used in the RX1 family is clearly superior. It remains a very heavily populated list, but at least it is now quicker to view and browse. This one actually makes sense. Funnily enough, the RX1 series is much more a camera that you could set up once and then just use.
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Old 12-05-2015   #87
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I never got on with the RX1 ergonomics. The lens is too big and the grip side is too cramped. Came close to buying it a couple of times, especially now that you can get one in mint condition for half price, but every time I hold it, I hate it.
I have used the RX1R for a couple years now, and I am no fan of the overall handling and ergonomics either. It's usable, though. I also found the camera slightly too small, but this can be addressed quite nicely by adding a half case. This is the only camera I have ever felt the need to use one on.
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Old 12-06-2015   #88
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Good for you. I found it terrible - and now I have a 5N with a dead menu button that makes the system even worse. The NEX is a menu-driven system. It's not really a set-up-once-and-forget-it type of deal if you use the cameras capabilities extensively. It is also complicated and weirdly organized. Depending on what you are doing, you need to dive in and out of the sub lists found under the major menu icons. It's slow when you need to work fast.

Sony has since dumbed the hated NEX menu structure. And the one used in the RX1 family is clearly superior. It remains a very heavily populated list, but at least it is now quicker to view and browse. This one actually makes sense. Funnily enough, the RX1 series is much more a camera that you could set up once and then just use.
Too bad for you... No digital camera works with a broken menu button btw.

I own the A6000 - the menu system is just as complicated, it just looks like other menu systems and that apparently is important for some people. You have six main pages that are divided into up to seven sub pages with the A6000. The NEX menu had six pages with no sub pages: just know your main page and scroll to the item you want to change. How complicated is that? How is that slower? If anything, I found it easier to get to an item then go from the Camera menu to sub page 5 of the Adjustment menu with my A60000.

But people differ. If you don't like the NEX system, get a newer camera with the newer menu system. Lets just agree to disagree.

That is, I guess, enough about the old menu system - now back to the present RX1 II - Q debate.
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Old 12-07-2015   #89
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It may have more resolution, but will it render more/better detail in print? I doubt it. Sony may have the sensor technology, but Leica/Panasonic have the microlens patents - and those count.
Theoretically it should, but also you can down-sample a high resolution image.
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Old 12-07-2015   #90
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I would imagine both have IQ that is sufficient for most of us. It would come down to focal length choice and haptics / ergonomics... and perhaps the extra $950 (but at this price point, it shouldn't be what keeps you from the Q).

That said, I went with the RX1R II since I feel the Ricoh GR II is sufficient for my 28mm needs.
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Old 12-07-2015   #91
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Ya got to have a pretty powerful computer and lots of storage to push around 42 megapixels of imagery. Images half that size are more then enough. More megapixels does not equate to better images. I don't know of anyone other then Michael Reichman of Luminous-Landscape, who likes to crop that much.
I would have to invest in a lot more computer, and right now I just cannot see investing in a Xeon based computer with 64mb of ram.

Although I can dream that Larry Gagosian will discover my work, and suddenly that Xeon will cost "a mere bag of shells."
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Old 12-07-2015   #92
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Storage is cheap ... and if using the Sony A7R (36mp files) is anything close to the 42mp files of the RX1R II... I was able to use a 3-4 year old iMac to process those files without any issues. I've upgraded my computer since then, but I don't think it's as huge of an issue as people make it out to be.
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Old 12-07-2015   #93
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I'd rather buy the newly released no video Leica M (typ 262), knowing that the camera body will be overtaken within a year or so while the lenses remain valid for a very long time.
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Old 12-07-2015   #94
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Storage is cheap ... and if using the Sony A7R (36mp files) is anything close to the 42mp files of the RX1R II... I was able to use a 3-4 year old iMac to process those files without any issues. I've upgraded my computer since then, but I don't think it's as huge of an issue as people make it out to be.
Well I was exaggerating, not a problem until one is combining a lot of files. Not really a joke about Larry though.

I don't think I could ever really sell enough to justify any of these cameras.
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Old 12-07-2015   #95
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I don't think I could ever really sell enough to justify any of these cameras.
We will all justify whatever it is we spend our disposable income on... and others will think we are fools if it's not what they think money should be spent on. Nothing wrong with not buying these cameras at all...
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Old 12-07-2015   #96
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We will all justify whatever it is we spend our disposable income on... and others will think we are fools if it's not what they think money should be spent on. Nothing wrong with not buying these cameras at all...

I love the thought of disposable income, as though I really have some to dispose of.

It would be better if the guys outside of the subways, said "have any disposable income to spare?"

Mostly I currently dispose mine on bicycles and travel, at one time I really disposed of a lot of money on cameras, but not so much these days. You will notice in today's avatar, I am visiting Peggy G in Venice?
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Old 12-07-2015   #97
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It would be better if the guys outside of the subways, said "have any disposable income to spare?"
Very true...

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You will notice in today's avatar, I am visiting Peggy G in Venice?
Good for you! enjoy...
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Old 12-07-2015   #98
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Good for you! enjoy...
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Old 01-11-2016   #99
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RX1R II might not be, but A7r II is really doing it to M bodies
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Old 01-11-2016   #100
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Don't forget that they replaced that awful, plastic, port flange. I bemoaned its existence when the A7 and A7R were originally released, and now it's nowhere to be found. And to reiterate the firmware update that included an uncompressed RAW option is a great win for Sony users.

It seems they listen to users after the fact. But for some reason it also seems as though there isn't a single photographer among the engineering or design staff. It's baffling.

That said, all I want is a non-af fixed lens 50mm compact with fully manual controls and no lcd (just a nice EVF). Throw in a full frame Foveon Merrill or a monochrome sensor and I'll be set for the next decade or so. Maybe I'd be the wrong person to ask.
I do know for a fact that Sony uses photographers quite extensively through the camera design process. They've signed on people for this purpose since the DSLR days. However, they might not be representative of photographers in general, and especially not photographers on this forum.

Being dedicated Sony users, the people they work with are going to be fairly used to the design and ergonomics. That or they won't have a frame of reference - when the A7 came out there were no competitors in the same price range. There still aren't any. They'll also generally like Sony - which pre-selects for a certain group with particular tastes. And then there's the underdog psychology of being in third place to two giant competitors. Half-baked designs are preferable to doing nothing at all, but only if you don't have much to lose. That selects for a certain type of goal in engineering.

And the RX1rII is the best reflection of that. It's designed as a dedicated backup camera, ideally for someone who already has an A7rII. The controls carry over. The camera is as small as possible while including the maximum amount of immediate control and functionality, which makes it complicated. That isn't an oversight - it's a tradeoff.
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Old 01-12-2016   #101
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And the RX1rII is the best reflection of that. It's designed as a dedicated backup camera, ideally for someone who already has an A7rII.
I don't see it that way at all (as someone who has one on order). I see it as a serious camera that I can take with me anywhere without any serious weight / size commitment.
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Old 03-16-2016   #102
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Well, I picked up a used RX1R II for a really good price and I'm shocked at how much I like it. Top notch sensor and lens. Ergonomically, it's not the best, but wow.
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Old 03-16-2016   #103
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Well, I picked up a used RX1R II for a really good price and I'm shocked at how much I like it. Top notch sensor and lens. Ergonomically, it's not the best, but wow.
Thats interesting. How far 'off' are the ergonomics for you? Is it something in particular? Did it take long to get used to it?
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Old 03-17-2016   #104
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Thats interesting. How far 'off' are the ergonomics for you? Is it something in particular? Did it take long to get used to it?
Well, I just got it. It's a little too small IMO. And it's the typical Sony remote control feel. I prefer classic camera shapes like a Leica M or a mechanical SLR shape. However, like I said... it's worth dealing with.
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Old 03-17-2016   #105
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Will the newly announced Sony RX1R kill Leica Q sales?
Nope. Anyone with the money and the desire to own the Q will not be buying a Sony, just like anyone who can afford and wants a Leica M won't "settle" for a Canon or Nikon full frame model, unless they can afford both.

The new Sony RX1R probably has more potential of hurting sales of their own A series.
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Old 03-17-2016   #106
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RX1R II might not be, but A7r II is really doing it to M bodies
If it is, then those buyers had no real desire for an M to start with. If one really wants the rangefinder experience, the Sony A series is no substitute.
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Old 03-17-2016   #107
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Well, I just got it. It's a little too small IMO. And it's the typical Sony remote control feel. I prefer classic camera shapes like a Leica M or a mechanical SLR shape. However, like I said... it's worth dealing with.
I had the RX1R - it was one of my favorite cameras I've owned. I thought the same thing about ergonomics until I added the Fotodiox grip. It made a world of difference.
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Old 03-17-2016   #108
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Thanks jkjob, but I'm not a fan of grips. I think maybe the word I should use instead of ergonomics is haptics.
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Old 04-03-2016   #109
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Well, I just got it. It's a little too small IMO.
I agree these cameras are too small. The RX1R is the only camera I have ever bought a half case for, and it is a huge improvement. It simply makes the camera a bit more bulky and easier to grasp. That's it, nothing more to it. I first thought that I would remove the half case when I absolutely wish to travel with the tiniest possible kit, but in practice I have never bothered. With the big lens, you are not really saving any space by removing the half case (or perhaps this is a one-third case). The one I have is a Gariz, and it's very functional and provides a good size for improved handling. The only issue is the offset tripod mount.
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Old 04-04-2016   #110
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I can't say I'm getting on with the camera at this point. Tried the grip, tried the case, etc. Just not my thing. X-Pro2 feels so comfortable and fun to use, RX1R II... not so much. Oh well, its only a camera.
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Old 04-04-2016   #111
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I can relate with that. The RX1 series are simply not great cameras, they are very average point and shoots. They are great imaging products, though. Some of the very best. I keep and use mine for the image quality and the leaf shutter. All that in a very small package.


Off topic:

I am also looking at the X-Pro2, but it is simply too much money for me for what it brings to the table. I would probably just get the 35/2 (which on the other hand is quite the bargain) and be done with it for a while. If the camera had 4k video, I might spend the money and even get an extra lens or two mainly for video use. With the current offering, I'm waiting at least for 35% off locally - or a US trip and 20+% off. Even then, I would be spending more than three times what I already paid for the Sony A6000 months ago (which provides the same performance). But the hybrid viewfinder and nicer ergonomics are certainly worth something. However, the thing about time is that it not only brings down the prices but it also moves up the bar.

The X-Pro2 is a bit of a missed marketing opportunity really. Apparently Fujifilm marketing decided that they can skip the 4k update (for which the hardware is capable of!) because only a minority of their existing X-Pro1 users found use for the abysmal video on that rig. I'm sure they can sell additional cameras to some of their existing customers through this differentiation, but this is a good example of how not to lure in new demanding customers. I have tried every single X mount Fuji with a viewfinder (except the new X-Pro2) and none of those cameras provide what I want. The X-Pro2 may be it. If I did go the X-Pro2 route, I might also get a 24-megapixel upgrade of the X100 series cameras at some point to replace the need for the RX1R. They are not bad products as is and the user experience kills the Sony, but they are not quite at the performance level I'm looking at.
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Old 04-05-2016   #112
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Fuji have stated that they are not implementing 4K in the X-Pro2 because of heat.
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Old 04-05-2016   #113
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Fuji have stated that they are not implementing 4K in the X-Pro2 because of heat.
There was also another story from Fuji saying that X-Pro1 users do not want video. This is the first I hear of heat being the reason.
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Old 04-05-2016   #114
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I can relate with that. The RX1 series are simply not great cameras, they are very average point and shoots. They are great imaging products, though. Some of the very best. I keep and use mine for the image quality and the leaf shutter. All that in a very small package.
True.

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I am also looking at the X-Pro2, but it is simply too much money for me for what it brings to the table. I would probably just get the 35/2 (which on the other hand is quite the bargain) and be done with it for a while.
I can understand how people would feel this way, but let's remember it IS unique. It is rangefinder sized and shaped (which I think is a plus), it has the hybrid finder, most likely the best high ISO IQ of any APSC camera (unless you hate X-Trans look), and has a pretty good lens lineup. I use more than my RX1R II and Df now.

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The X-Pro2 is a bit of a missed marketing opportunity really. Apparently Fujifilm marketing decided that they can skip the 4k update (for which the hardware is capable of!) because only a minority of their existing X-Pro1 users found use for the abysmal video on that rig. I'm sure they can sell additional cameras to some of their existing customers through this differentiation, but this is a good example of how not to lure in new demanding customers.
I'm one of those who doesn't care about video... I'm part of the problem.

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I have tried every single X mount Fuji with a viewfinder (except the new X-Pro2) and none of those cameras provide what I want. The X-Pro2 may be it.
Yes, I felt the same way...and the X-Pro2 is it for me.

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If I did go the X-Pro2 route, I might also get a 24-megapixel upgrade of the X100 series cameras at some point to replace the need for the RX1R. They are not bad products as is and the user experience kills the Sony, but they are not quite at the performance level I'm looking at.
Agreed. The X-Pro2 has the performance though. The new X100 should be nice.
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Old 05-24-2016   #115
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+1 on grips to the RX1 series. They're pretty much required in my opinion. Hugely changes the ergonomics of it. My RX1R2 now feels great in my hands, while before it felt really awkward. I don't know if others have stated it but the AF-C mode focuses the lens much faster than AF-S. One theory is that it keeps the lens from returning to infinity focus after each engagement. Plus with eye-af for portraits, off center composition is a breeze.

The RX1R2 puts out the best quality I've ever seen from a 35mm digital right down to the pixel level. However, I'm no pixel peeper. I just think that 35 Sonnar renders like a dream! There is plenty of sharpness where it needs to be, and the highlights glow. I wonder if that kind of rendering (which I also get from my 50/1.5 C Sonnar), is why Zeiss refers to it as a Sonnar. I'm not sure I believe that it all comes down to the pure optical formula like it used to... The Q may be a lovely camera but a 28 is not a 35. That's all she wrote for portrait shooters.

Really and truly my only gripe is that manual focus is a drag. However, I bought this as an AF camera. If I want to enjoy manually focusing a 35 I'll use my 35/1.4 ZM.
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Old 05-24-2016   #116
nongfuspring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trius View Post
Fuji have stated that they are not implementing 4K in the X-Pro2 because of heat.
I came across this also, they mentioned that the issue was with the camera body being poorly suited to heat dissipation. Rumor is that the XT-2 will have 4K.
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Old 09-17-2016   #117
BlackXList
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Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
They might be both cameras, but one is a from a camera company, the other from an entertainments company.

Now Leica has dropped the ball a few times since they went digital but they still are miles ahead of Sony when it comes to cameras, imaging, customer service and vision.

Disclosure: I'm far from a Leica fan, wouldn't touch them with a bargepole either.
I couldn't disagree more on the bolded parts.

In the area of photography I work big SLRs are the norm, many of us are sticking with a brand because we're invested in lenses, but even there the Sonys have been making inroads.

Imaging wise, Sony sensors are in the world's top FF cameras, the big Nikons (I say this as a Canon user) and the a7 series, are all Sony sensors, they're fantastic, and Sony has been really pushing up the ISO envelope too.

It's possible to say that they should have much more in the way of lenses and less bodies, but they seem to pick a particular purpose for each body and push each of them forward, I believe they just filed a curved sensor patent too. They definitely have vision.

Leica on the other hand, (and I say this as a Q admirer) everything they release is about a year or more behind the other companies in terms of capability, and they rely on their reputation and the "precision" and "porsche" comparisons, when honestly, on the wider stage, their products aren't competitive.
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