How is this possible?
Old 01-03-2017   #1
pepeguitarra
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How is this possible?

$8,400!!!


"I have for sale from my personal photographic museum :

Leica M3 Black S/N 1155939. Single Stroke. One of only 2 or 3 M3's painted by Don Goldberg in his entire career. It was a labour of love, took over 12 months to finish. Many parts were sourced from Don's Leica parts bin with genuine period black paint, like the advance lever.

Project was finished in around 2010. Camera has been to DAG for CLA 2 or 3 times, last time in around 2013, to re-align the focus to make it perfect-perfect at 1m and also at infinity (since I am a perfectionist and I drive Don mad!).

Viewfinder is clear and critically accurate. Bright and clear and high contrast. All speeds smooth of course and accurate all the way down to 1 sec.

A classic M3 Black Paint you may never come across again."





http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M3-Bla...vip=true&rt=nc
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Old 01-03-2017   #2
xayraa33
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Simple really, some people have more disposable income then they have common sense.
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Old 01-03-2017   #3
CameraQuest
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Don Goldberg was one of the giants of the camera industry.

With documentation, its worth that much or more.

Look at what 1913 cameras personally assembled by Oskar B are selling for.
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Old 01-03-2017   #4
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Provenance, baby! Still seems pretty high to me, but if it comes with some sort of lifetime warranty from Don, that's a major benefit.

Don is still active, is he not? (I was wondering why it took him 12 months to paint it.)
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Old 01-03-2017   #5
pepeguitarra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
(I was wondering why it took him 12 months to paint it.)
That question can be answered easily by anyone here, who has sent something to Don.

The seller put another similar camara for sale today and sold immediately for over $5K. A serial collector?

So, an authentic blacpainted M3 would go for....?
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Old 01-03-2017   #6
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When I looked at the auction that was linked, it said the camera went for $4100. While Don is a great Leica repair technician, and has done numerous cameras for me over the years, I'm not sure I'd call him a "giant in the industry". He's a good guy who does good work, but we're not talking Oscar B here.

Who knows why people pay what they sometimes pay for things on eBay. I once was convinced by a friend to list some old motorcycle bodywork on eBay, that I had planned on just pitching in the trash, and someone gave me $1400 for it. I was flabbergasted, but as they say, "What the market will bear."
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Old 01-03-2017   #7
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You would think someone would rather have an original black paint M2 or M4 for probably less, the paint looks a bit thick on the top!
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Old 01-03-2017   #8
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I bought a IIIc that DAG built, restored, built up from parts, whatever. He sells misc. cameras on his website, sells them for just regular money too. I think they are a bargain, considering his experience.
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Old 01-03-2017   #9
brennanphotoguy
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That's absolutely absurd.
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Old 01-03-2017   #10
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I find the way basically everything in the Leica world is priced absurdly, and though I respect Don and his undeniable skill as a camera technician, I wouldn't pay some huge premium for a repainted camera. (I've utilized his services multiple times and every experience has been done correctly, promptly and courteously, which is more than I can say about having anything repaired by Leica.)

Hopefully whoever bought the camera is happy, that's really all that matters in the end.
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Old 01-03-2017   #11
mpaniagua
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Rather than absurd, I suppose somethings worths as much as someone is willing to pay. I mean, look at Stradivari violin, Picasso paintings, Van Gogh, etc. People pay huge amounts of money (being realistic) a bunch of wood, fabric and paint. I suppose their uniqness boost their value but even so...
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Old 01-03-2017   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepeguitarra View Post
That question can be answered easily by anyone here, who has sent something to Don.

The seller put another similar camara for sale today and sold immediately for over $5K. A serial collector?

So, an authentic blacpainted M3 would go for....?
Kind of like asking why does it take 6 months or more to have a Urushi lacquered and Maki-e artwork done on a fountain pen when sent to be hand done by a Japanese artisan.
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Old 01-03-2017   #13
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pretty valid point. If there is someone that is willing to pay for it, most likely there is someone willing to sell it. Nothing wrong with it.

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Old 01-03-2017   #14
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Originally Posted by mpaniagua View Post
Rather than absurd, I suppose somethings worths as much as someone is willing to pay. I mean, look at Stradivari violin, Picasso paintings, Van Gogh, etc. People pay huge amounts of money (being realistic) a bunch of wood, fabric and paint. I suppose their uniqness boost their value but even so...
I think that is a generalisation too far. They pay (through the nose and not always realistic) for something unique. But for a repainted industrial made piece?
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Old 01-03-2017   #15
Steve M.
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"But for a repainted industrial made piece?"

That is basically the long and the short of it. Nice looking camera, but I agree, better to have a factory painted one.

This is all conjecture on my part. I always wanted something that worked like it was supposed to. What it looked like was of no consequence.
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Old 01-03-2017   #16
brennanphotoguy
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Yeah, I mean, I totally understand paying that much for a real BP M3 that's been certified or whatever but this is pretty much a glorified repaint. I don't get it.
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Old 01-03-2017   #17
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I think that this sale catered to a specialised group of user/collectors who besides acquiring factory original rare Leicas also specialise in acquiring "Star" camera painters and painter/tech examples and are willing to pay a good price for the privilege. So a painted camera by Shintaro or one painted/serviced by DAG would be highly desired.

This is no different than in say car restoration or in the guitar replica business, a 59 sunburst Les Paul guitar accurately reproduced by MAX for instance, can sell for 40,000 dollars or more.
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Emotional Investments
Old 01-03-2017   #18
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Emotional Investments

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaniagua View Post
Rather than absurd, I suppose somethings worths as much as someone is willing to pay. I mean, look at Stradivari violin, Picasso paintings, Van Gogh, etc. People pay huge amounts of money (being realistic) a bunch of wood, fabric and paint. I suppose their uniqness boost their value but even so...
The 650 or so existing Stradivarius violins made by Italian luthier Antonio Stradivari are a good examples of "emotional investments" that have value far exceeding the high quality of materials and workmanship that created them. And their value continues to increase. No one debates the unmatched sound quality of these violins. Seemingly analogous to DAG's black re-paint of the OP's example, Stradivari used a unique deeply red lacquer that gave his violins more than a rich look: It also gave specially vibrational properties to the wood, enhancing the sound. But its hard to imagine that black paint actually enhances camera function!

Stradivari violins go at auctions for 2-3 million USD, bidding usually starting at $1 million. Unique sound quality, but these are also emotional investments that contribute to the artistry of the player.

Stradivari also made Cellos and guitars. Only 5 guitars have been found, of which only one is playable. Sounds great though! (http://www.stradivarius.org/stradivarius-guitar/)

I think a part of Leica gear ownership is also emotional investment. Not all, but part.
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Old 01-03-2017   #19
mpaniagua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
I think that is a generalisation too far. They pay (through the nose and not always realistic) for something unique. But for a repainted industrial made piece?
well, its unique isn't?
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Old 01-03-2017   #20
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The 650 or so existing Stradivarius violins made by Italian luthier Antonio Stradivari are a good examples of "emotional investments" that have value far exceeding the high quality of materials and workmanship that created them. And their value continues to increase. No one debates the unmatched sound quality of these violins. Seemingly analogous to DAG's black re-paint of the OP's example, Stradivari used a unique deeply red lacquer that gave his violins more than a rich look: It also gave specially vibrational properties to the wood, enhancing the sound. But its hard to imagine that black paint actually enhances camera function!

Stradivari violins go at auctions for 2-3 million USD, bidding usually starting at $1 million. Unique sound quality, but these are also emotional investments that contribute to the artistry of the player.

Stradivari also made Cellos and guitars. Only 5 guitars have been found, of which only one is playable. Sounds great though! (http://www.stradivarius.org/stradivarius-guitar/)

I think a part of Leica gear ownership is also emotional investment. Not all, but part.

Not arquing the collector and investment value of a Stradivarious, but there had been lots of test to compare them against modern violins and guess what? Players preferred modern violins over Stradivarious.

http://www.thestrad.com/blind-tested...n-instruments/


Yes, Stradivarius violins (like Leica lens) command high prices, and yes, they hold their value (again, same as Leica Lens).
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Old 01-03-2017   #21
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...

I think a part of Leica gear ownership is also emotional investment. Not all, but part.

+1 Highly agree with that last part.
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Old 01-03-2017   #22
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Originally Posted by mpaniagua View Post
Not arquing the collector and investment value of a Stradivarious, but there had been lots of test to compare them against modern violins and guess what? Players preferred modern violins over Stradivarious.

http://www.thestrad.com/blind-tested...n-instruments/


Yes, Stradivarius violins (like Leica lens) command high prices, and yes, they hold their value (again, same as Leica Lens).
Thanks for the link. A very interesting study!
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To piggy back on this question, here is another one:
Old 01-03-2017   #23
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To piggy back on this question, here is another one:

Couple of days ago, a Canon 50/1.2 black went all the way to $2,200 on the big bidding site and still the reserve was not met. Everywhere, I read that the black copy is the same as the silver copy of that lens. I can get the silver copy for $500 in excellent shape. Why is the black suddenly that expensive?
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Old 01-03-2017   #24
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Wow, that is a high price! I have a recently CLA'd silver version of the Canon 50/1.2 in great shape and I could not get $350 when I tried to sell it. On the plus side, now I'm glad I kept it!
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Old 01-03-2017   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
Don Goldberg was one of the giants of the camera industry.

With documentation, its worth that much or more.

Look at what 1913 cameras personally assembled by Oskar B are selling for.
He comes by it naturally. I think Norman Goldberg was his father and wrote for Modern or Popular Photography 1960s.

Regardless, when these people like Don and Sherry decide to retire, we are in trouble.
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Old 01-03-2017   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepeguitarra View Post
Couple of days ago, a Canon 50/1.2 black went all the way to $2,200 on the big bidding site and still the reserve was not met. Everywhere, I read that the black copy is the same as the silver copy of that lens. I can get the silver copy for $500 in excellent shape. Why is the black suddenly that expensive?
The black copy was only made up for the black cameras. So extremely rare. I owned several black Canons, but was never able to find an all black 1.2. There is a similar all black 1.4 Nikkor for early all black S2 Nikons.

As for the Dag repaint, collectibles are worth what someone is willing to pay at the time it is sold. And as they say with mutual funds, past performance is no guarantee of future results.
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Old 01-03-2017   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
"But for a repainted industrial made piece?"

That is basically the long and the short of it. Nice looking camera, but I agree, better to have a factory painted one.

This is all conjecture on my part. I always wanted something that worked like it was supposed to. What it looked like was of no consequence.

For a camera, that's the way I feel about it.

When I mentioned the analogy to the craftsmanship of a fountain pen (Say Nakaya, Namiki, or some in-house artist). That stuff is made from the ground up, from scratch, the artwork done on it is original to the brand/production. (The one shown below is about 4 grands, there's a few Nakaya, and Danitrio models that run upward to 25,000 or 50,000)



Sending off an instrument made by one company to another for a paint job... well that's no longer "original". But if it's handmade-to-order, at least it's personalized... but so is scratching it up from personal use for a couple decades.
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Old 01-04-2017   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepeguitarra View Post
Couple of days ago, a Canon 50/1.2 black went all the way to $2,200 on the big bidding site and still the reserve was not met. Everywhere, I read that the black copy is the same as the silver copy of that lens. I can get the silver copy for $500 in excellent shape. Why is the black suddenly that expensive?
Cool I have a black one only paid about 350 a couple of years ago!
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Old 01-05-2017   #29
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Cool I have a black one only paid about 350 a couple of years ago!
Most buyers and sellers are not even aware there is an all black version, since all of them seem black, so bargains do occur.

There are other sleepers out there, like the Nikkor 50 1.4 RF in aluminum, only the weight gives it away. Or the all black, "chrome," Nikkor RF 135, very rare.
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Old 01-06-2017   #30
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Hmmmm...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZORKI-2C-S...p2047675.l2557
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Old 01-06-2017   #31
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I fully agree with the below. The camera, since removed (but perhaps relisted?), is, simply, a repaint albeit by a well-known technician.

But the market is the market and fools are fools. Still I don't think it is right to talk up something that is not the real thing.

Philip


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Originally Posted by Timmyjoe View Post
When I looked at the auction that was linked, it said the camera went for $4100. While Don is a great Leica repair technician, and has done numerous cameras for me over the years, I'm not sure I'd call him a "giant in the industry". He's a good guy who does good work, but we're not talking Oscar B here.

Who knows why people pay what they sometimes pay for things on eBay. I once was convinced by a friend to list some old motorcycle bodywork on eBay, that I had planned on just pitching in the trash, and someone gave me $1400 for it. I was flabbergasted, but as they say, "What the market will bear."
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Old 01-06-2017   #32
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That Zorki is very cool. Not sure I would use it, but I would happily display it.
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Old 01-06-2017   #33
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But the market is the market and fools are fools. Still I don't think it is right to talk up something that is not the real thing.

Philip
Well yes, but the camera in question was correctly described, no deception that I noticed. The seller, and I assume the buyer, were much more excited about the paint job than I (or you) but that is true of so many offerings in the marketplace.

I personally find repainted cameras odd, but some folks really enjoy them, and who am I to ruin their fun?
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