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Business / Philosophy of Photography Taking pics is one thing, but understanding why we take them, what they mean, what they are best used for, how they effect our reality -- all of these and more are important issues of the Philosophy of Photography. One of the best authors on the subject is Susan Sontag in her book "On Photography."

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Old 04-12-2018   #121
Paul T.
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
No, I’m describing how the www works, or at least how it was designed and built to work. You are describing the www based on your incorrect view of what it is, and how you would like it to be.
You're repeating the same demonstrably flawed logic - when, as we've seen, current law means Rockwell was reimbursed for use of his photo. There's no debating beyond that. In fact, it is you who is describing the www as "you would like it to be" - and you've chosen a really bad case to make your stand, considering a bad writer stole a photo and the creator has been recompensed.

Your other general point about "how the www was designed to work" is so vague it's hardly worth addressing. But Tim Berners Lee specifically did NOT propose the WWW to rip off creatives and I recall proposed a system of micropayments to ensure creators aren't left starving.

I presume your reasoning is naivete rather than immorality - it's that deluded idea that copyright makes Walt Diseny and big corporations rich. and that it's ok to steal from those you don't like .

The truth is the big corporations will be rich whatever happens, and copyright theft will only harm smaller creative individuals. And although I don't like Rockwell, I don't think anyone has the right to steal (and misattribute) his work, as in the incident that inspired this thread.
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Old 04-12-2018   #122
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Originally Posted by Sumarongi View Post
There are actually at least these two old, yet still interesting, threads covering the question in question:

Copyright infringement on RFF

An Open Letter to Photography Thieves

Of course, Paul T. and Roger Hicks did contribute also then
LOL! Maybe Roger and I feel it more deeply because we and our friends make a living from words, photos, music etc.

I should add, I've given huge amounts of free stuff to my rivals, on the basis that somehow the world benefits. But if someone steals, I will take great effort to shut them down.
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Old 04-12-2018   #123
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Originally Posted by Paul T. View Post
You're repeating the same demonstrably flawed logic - when, as we've seen, current law means Rockwell was reimbursed for use of his photo. There's no debating beyond that. In fact, it is you who is describing the www as "you would like it to be" - and you've chosen a really bad case to make your stand, considering a bad writer stole a photo and the creator has been recompensed.

Your other general point about "how the www was designed to work" is so vague it's hardly worth addressing. But Tim Berners Lee specifically did NOT propose the WWW to rip off creatives and I recall proposed a system of micropayments to ensure creators aren't left starving.

I presume your reasoning is naivete rather than immorality - it's that deluded idea that copyright makes Walt Diseny and big corporations rich. and that it's ok to steal from those you don't like .

The truth is the big corporations will be rich whatever happens, and copyright theft will only harm smaller creative individuals. And although I don't like Rockwell, I don't think anyone has the right to steal (and misattribute) his work, as in the incident that inspired this thread.
Dear Paul,

Yeah, but what do you or I or Tim Berners-Lee know, next to FujiLove?

Apologies for the source, but here's an article on micropayments on the web. I believe it represents Sir Tim's views fairly well.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-12-2018   #124
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
You feel it’s morally right to use someone’s time while you create an image of them. . . .
How do I "use their time" any more by taking a photograph of them in the street than I do merely by noticing them in the street?

Your arguments (I use the word generously) are increasingly strained.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-12-2018   #125
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Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
How do I "use their time" any more by taking a photograph of them in the street than I do merely by noticing them in the street?
Wait, when taking a photo of a stranger, don't you not only use their time but also suck quite a lot life out of them? At least my wife says *I* do that

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Old 04-12-2018   #126
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You feel it’s morally right to use someone’s time while you create an image of them, then potentially make money from using their image without offering them a share of those earnings? But if someone shares your images, you’re going to be offended and seek compensation? ........................
Are you contending that any photographer who makes any photograph of any person in public for any purpose has a moral responsibility to pay that person?

You have made an erroneous assumption that there is any economic motivation regarding my photography. I decided about 30 years ago to completely disconnect any economic motivation from my photography. That means I never sell any prints or right to use my photos nor ever charge for my work. My motivation was to insure that my photo work was only what I personally thought needed to be done without any influence from what the market or others wanted. The home page of my website says " Please don't steal photos from me or anyone on the web. (legalese: everything here is copyrighted) If you see something of mine that you have a connection to or simply really enjoy, please contact me and I'll probably see about getting you a print. thanks, Bob"

So I have never sought compensation for the use of my photographic work, only the right to control where it is reused.
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Old 04-12-2018   #127
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Originally Posted by Sumarongi View Post
Wait, when taking a photo of a stranger, don't you not only use their time but also suck quite a lot life out of them? At least my wife says *I* do that

There are quite a few societies that frown against having their photos taken as they believe it steals a part of their soul. The Amish see photos as graven images.

For these people, I like to make brass rubbings. But I definitely ask for their permission first.
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Old 04-12-2018   #128
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
There are quite a few societies that frown against having their photos taken as they believe it steals a part of their soul. The Amish see photos as graven images.

For these people, I like to make brass rubbings. But I definitely ask for their permission first.
(I was alluding on exactly that, but anyways thank you, Huss)
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Old 04-12-2018   #129
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
.............. Why does a photographer have the right to take my photo without asking or paying me, and then demand payment from a 3rd party who uses my image? ..................
First amendment to the US Constitution
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Old 04-12-2018   #130
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Sorry to interrupt the copyright proceedings which are bizarre and fascinating in equal measure, but for those interested you might check Adorama. Both articles from Resnick are now gone.
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Old 04-12-2018   #131
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Originally Posted by jawarden View Post
Both articles from Resnick are now gone.
Oh, yes. That! I'd forgotten what this thread was about. Thank you!
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Old 04-12-2018   #132
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Sorry to interrupt the copyright proceedings which are bizarre and fascinating in equal measure, but for those interested you might check Adorama. Both articles from Resnick are now gone.
I believe all of Resnick's articles are now gone.
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Old 04-12-2018   #133
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
Photographers often spend ages with people they photograph. Posing them, asking them to hold still while they fiddle with cameras, "do that again this way"...you don't think all those Martin Parr photos were lucky snaps, do you?! And what about their image rights? Why does a photographer have the right to take my photo without asking or paying me, and then demand payment from a 3rd party who uses my image? Why do I not get a cut?

That's very dodgy moral ground, if you ask me.

So...back to my earlier question: how did Ken 'lose out' when his image was used elsewhere? I keep asking, but nobody responds.

And 'stealing' is a very loose and emotive term here. Nothing was taken away from Ken. His file was simply duplicated at zero cost to him and used elsewhere. If the person had hot-linked the file straight off the server, complete with watermark, would that have been okay? How about if he had displayed Ken's whole website in an iFrame on his blog, including the image? Would that still be theft?

If someone takes my car keys and drives off, that's stealing. I no longer have a car and am angry and look for justice. If someone zaps my car with a magical copying device and drives off in the duplicate, then good for them and enjoy the drive mis amigos!

By the way, sorry to see the personal insults have started. It would be good to debate without denigrating one another don't you think?
So: whenever I have a conversation with anyone, and use an idea we have arrived at in a mutually enjoyable conversation in an article, I owe them a percentage of whatever I earn for the article? As I said, "increasingly strained".

As for photographers "often spending ages with people", why do you think I chose the street as an example? If you regularly have to spend "ages" fiddling with the camera and asking for poses in street photography then (a) you're pretty incompetent and (b) your pictures are likely to be forced and stagey, i.e. not very good.

If you can't see that stealing intellectual property is stealing, then you presumably don't believe in the existence of intellectual property. You can argue de minimis, but you can't argue that it isn't stealing, even in your fantasy vision of the web which is supported only by the intellectually lazy (i.e. those who have never bothered to think about it) or, yes, thieves. It's certainly unlikely to be supported by those who create any intellectual property of any value, even if that value is quite small.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-12-2018   #134
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Originally Posted by css9450 View Post
Oh, yes. That! I'd forgotten what this thread was about. Thank you!
The purpose of this thread is apparently to prove that someone on the Internet is wrong.

😆
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Old 04-12-2018   #135
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Five years down the road, the first band is much more likely to be successful and rich. I see no reason why the same principle shouldn't apply to other creatives.
Shouldn't, or doesn't?
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Old 04-12-2018   #136
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The reasons the author cited about not continuing to use film are valid ones, which I agree with (didn't always) when the discussion is limited to comparing small format film to full frame digital (and probably crop these days). People need to stop hyperventilating when someone disagrees on a topic on the internet. What is especially unacceptable is the seemingly willful intellectual property theft, especially from someone who is a creative, and especially-especially a professional photographer. Adorama did the right thing in paying KR for usage.
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Old 04-12-2018   #137
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
I also make my living from creating content (code and images).

I read a report a few years back about people who 'stole' music online via the Torrent sites, the old Napster etc. It showed they spent much more - I think it was several times more - than people who were 'honest'. In other words, the 'thieves' were actually the band's biggest fans and sources of income.

Take two talented bands. Post the music of one of them completely free on the Internet in high quality as well as on Vinyl, CD, paid streaming services etc. For the other, lock everything down, enforce copyright at every opportunity and come down hard on the pirates.

Five years down the road, the first band is much more likely to be successful and rich. I see no reason why the same principle shouldn't apply to other creatives.
If a band is on a label, they more than likely don't own the recordings or the copyright on the recordings, so it isn't their decision to enforce the copyright on them or not.
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Old 04-12-2018   #138
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I read a report a few years back about people who 'stole' music online via the Torrent sites, the old Napster etc. It showed they spent much more - I think it was several times more - than people who were 'honest'. In other words, the 'thieves' were actually the band's biggest fans and sources of income.
Total BS...
I earn my living as a musician..so...you read somewhere some "fun" facts....lol..
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Old 04-12-2018   #139
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Another important lesson for creatives:

Don't waste time when you could be creating stuff, arguing with people who advocate stealing. Just do the thing.

Deadlines call. Often work is a blessed release. Fujilove, have fun creating your code.
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Old 04-12-2018   #140
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
It seems there are a lot of people on this forum who are incapable of opening their minds to other people's ideas, and others who are incapable of having a debate without resorting to personal insults, so I'll leave you to it.

By the way, here's the 'total BS' report: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...l-1812776.html
So people who buy a lot of music should be allowed to steal a lot as well? That seems a little ludicrous. Where else would that be allowed? The local record store? I bought 30 albums so I am just going to steal 7 more as a bonus. But officer, I bought 30 of them, so how could what I did possibly be wrong?

I would also note that the article was written in 2009 - nine years ago - and since then, because the download model was untenable due in large part to piracy, internet music distribution has now moved to streaming.
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Old 04-12-2018   #141
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
It seems there are a lot of people on this forum who are incapable of opening their minds to other people's ideas, and others who are incapable of having a debate without resorting to personal insults, so I'll leave you to it. . . .
Well, there's at least one who is incapable of opening his mind to the idea of things like "laws". And indeed "common decency".

He sees rational arguments as "personal insults".

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-12-2018   #142
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No, I'm saying it's hypocritical to expect to be able to use someone's image for free, make money from it, not share that money with the subject THEN AT THE SAME TIME get bent out of shape if someone uses that image without your consent ...............
Once again I ask, do you realize your logic implies that anyone is free to use just about any photograph that has ever been published on the web or in any book or magazine? Are you implying that if you paid the subject, then others would be immoral to then reuse it for their own purposes? Do I have greater intellectual property rights because I make no money from my published photography?

I believe you are grasping at straws trying to justify your illogical comments and unsustainable dialogue.
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Old 04-12-2018   #143
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Well, there's at least one who is incapable of opening his mind to the idea of things like "laws". And indeed "common decency".

He sees rational arguments as "personal insults".

Cheers,

R.
And, somehow appropriately, thinks creative ideas are worthless.... yet names himself after a brand, the ultimate slave to materialism.
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Old 04-12-2018   #144
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Been thinking about shaing, imo, bags of sweets, magnums of wine and chocolate cakes are designed for sharing; so you don't have to be asked but can just help yourself?

Regards, David
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Old 04-12-2018   #145
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Well, there's at least one who is incapable of opening his mind to the idea of things like "laws". And indeed "common decency".
Couldn't have said it better.
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Old 04-12-2018   #146
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Been thinking about sharing, imo, bags of sweets, magnums of wine and chocolate cakes are designed for sharing; so you don't have to be asked but can just help yourself?

Regards, David
Dear David,

An elegant analogy!

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-12-2018   #147
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... and from Helen Oster (Adorama) a few hours ago on APUG:


"My understanding is that everything ever submitted by that author has been removed......."

"As I noted earlier, I've been advised that all the articles from the author have already been removed"


Doesn't seem to be the simple mistake that others have insisted occurred.
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Old 04-13-2018   #148
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Originally Posted by aizan View Post
we all like to kick a dog while he's down, but this is getting to be an example of toxic fandom.
I cannot see any *toxic fandom* here, well, to be honest: no *fandom* at all. Can somewhere -- anywhere -- be discovered someone -- anyone -- who would have been Mr. Resnick's *fan* (except his own customers, perhaps)?
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Old 04-13-2018   #149
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First amendment to the US Constitution
And decades of trial law precedence.
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Old 04-13-2018   #150
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So, feel free to continue to make up lies about me...

J
Firstly, I was indeed upset by your high-handed and frankly offensive attitude to creative people. It's hard making a living that way - we get ripped off all the time, photographers today are often being offered the page rates that were standard a decade ago, and recently I was offered a word-rate... that was the one I set on a magazine I launched 25 years ago. Yes, 25. There are many people far more talented and creative than me who would suffer in the world you want.

Your repeated statements that you had experience as a coder and this gave you a special understanding were also of marginal relevance - this is why I addressed it . Please don't take me as demeaning your profession - only its relevance to this discussion. We all have to make a living in whatever way, your profession demands skills I don't have, and who knows how I'll be making a living in a decade.

So... I fundamentally disagree with you, as you do me. None of my posts have been removed, and I hope never to be snide .

Please understand I dislike your ideas, not you, and please don't leave the forum because we disagree. This is only the internet. I too have close friends battling the big C, and I am sorry that this has upset you. Put me on ignore, whatever, shake your fist at the screen when you see my handle, continue to believe I am an arse, but please please please come back to the forum, and continue having fun with your X100.
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Old 04-13-2018   #151
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I've been following this thread and thought I'd comment. I'm recounting a story I told here before, because it involves young photography students and their view on intellectual property.

In my work environment, I share space with a good friend and photographer. His work is almost all studio based. Mine is mostly location based. He lectures at one of the big, famous, expensive Art schools in our city.

His students are in the studio about twice a month. I never know when they will be around. One of my first encounters with these Junior-senior year college kids was when I was doing some work on the building. They paid little attention to me. They thought I might have been the janitor. Fine with me.. seriously.

One gallery that holds my work has some on their website. These kids likely know the names and work of every photographer in town. My studio mate often gave these kids the run of the studio when visiting. Our office has original work hanging... stuff by Jim Marshall, Edward Weston and HCB and others. So, the students were allowed in the office unsupervised. My desk often has prints, old Kodachromes, etc. in plain sight. These kids made the connection to the gallery's web photos (they went through my desk) and the stuff at my desk. Then they came looking for me. My pal pointed out their "janitor". I was approached by several of them in a group. They weren't particularly friendly.

One young women did the talking. She said, we've been using your work for our school projects (small web grabs) and, we need bigger files. It took me a minute to process this. I said, you want bigger files of my photos for your projects.. you're photo students, shouldn't you be making your own photos? She said, yours are better, and we need them.. you have to give them to us. I told her that I simply shared space in the studio, and had no part in her education. It was my friend who was lecturing, not me. She said, it didn't matter, and that they needed the large files for their education and by not providing them, I was denying her part of her education.

What they were doing with lifted work was, running it through PS, making slight changes and then claiming it as their original work.

Our conversation ended with the following from this student (verbatim, I won't forget it): "You're old, you don't get it. Everything is free now. Get a clue!"

I've had all kinds of imagery lifted over the years, but the attitude of these young people toward intellectual property seems the norm in many places now. I do my best to keep my work off the web.
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Old 04-14-2018   #152
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Old 04-15-2018   #153
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Old 04-15-2018   #154
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Our conversation ended with the following from this student (verbatim, I won't forget it): "You're old, you don't get it. Everything is free now. Get a clue!"
Too bad her parents weren't there to hear that... I bet they're paying the bills!
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Old 04-15-2018   #155
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"He lectures at one of the big, famous, expensive Art schools in our city."

I think the cirriculum needs changing a little...

Certain concerpts about making money from other people's efforts need to be included or emphassised and a bit about the legal side of things, f'intance.

Talking of that, I thought that in the USA you could get a minimum of US$750 for copyright theft but it's some time since I had a punch up with Americans scanning my stuff and selling it on.

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Old 04-15-2018   #156
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This preening, brazen appropriation of other people's hard work is rife: images, music, literature.

Colleges and universities are fighting an uphill the battle with students who plagiarise - steal - or employ and pay for ‘exam mills’ complete course work or theses without lifting a finger themselves.

A couple of examples; there are plenty of others:

https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2013...arism-problem/

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/06/w...ism/index.html
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Old 04-15-2018   #157
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This has been a very fruitful and intense discussion; it also is sad to see some views that people have towards the theft of other people's images.

It does look like Adorama has parted ways with Resnick, which is upsetting for him, but wholly his own doing. If you're incapable of doing your job, you do not deserve to have that job. https://www.adorama.com/alc/article_.../mason-resnick
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Old 04-15-2018   #158
Brian Atherton
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Originally Posted by Hogarth Ferguson View Post
...it also is sad to see some views that people have towards the theft of other people's images.
What I also find sad, Hogarth, is the wilful and flagrant disregard, both in word and deed, of the law by some. Whether they like it or not, the internet is governed by law.

As for Mason Resnick, I couldn't agree more.
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Old 04-15-2018   #159
Hogarth Ferguson
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What I also find sad, Hogarth, is the wilful and flagrant disregard, both in word and deed, of the law by some. Whether they like it or not, the internet is governed by law.

As for Mason Resnick, I couldn't agree more.

It was a very interesting discussion to have, of course. I've had the same one on reddit, and I thought I would find people agreeing that the download or use of an image was wrong. We are all creators. However, it seemed you had more people on the "Don't want your image stolen, don't share it" camp, or the "it is just them saying they like it by using it"

Taking an image, to use for a desktop background or for use in an advert are not that different, people need to ask permission and come to terms.

I am pretty shocked that people here take Resnick's account at face value, even in light of obvious inaccuracies.
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Old 04-15-2018   #160
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I am pretty shocked that people here take Resnick's account at face value, even in light of obvious inaccuracies.
Apparently Adorama finally came to its senses and, after first believing and defending his "it was an accident" excuse, has now parted ways with him.
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