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Old 01-28-2019   #41
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When I went on holiday to Girona last September I noticed only two cameras the entire week - my M3 and a friend's FED. In a busy touristy city I did not see a single camera - all the photos were being taken by phones or tablets.

I sat by a friend at Christmas lunch who is a professional photographer of some distinction. He showed me a portrait he'd taken on the latest Iphone. His comment - with output like that, who needs a dedicated camera?

I think Canon know their market pretty well.
I agree that cell phones make good color photos. My iPhone 7 has monster shutter lag though...like very early digital point and shoots. If that improved I might use it more for that, if I shoot color.
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Old 01-28-2019   #42
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In this vein, you should see the look on kids faces when they ask to look through the viewfinder of my OM-1. All my OM bodies have either the 1-4 (all matte) or 1-10 (same with grid) screens. With the standard f1.8 they are amazed at the view. Sure beats the 'stinky diaper' hold of their cell phones.
I am a bit surprised that there is no clip-on, pop up hood/magnifier for cell phones (least ways, none that I've seen). Something like the old fold down waist level finders on TLR's. With adjustable side clips, or even little elastic cords one could be made to fit a variety of different phones and would exclude light from shining on the screen so you could actually see it clearly. The eyepiece should also be focusable. It would be cheaper to make and sell it if was a fixed 'chimney' type finder, but more appealing sales wise if it were designed to be foldable.
I call these ZOMBIE cameras. Stinky diaper is decent also.
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Old 01-28-2019   #43
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That is quite interesting. Do you know what other cameras are still in production and have been taken into account?
Film cameras from Lomography, Leica, Nikon, Mint, Hasselblad, Arax, DW Photo, more than a dozen different large format camera manufacturers, several pinhole camera manufacturers.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-28-2019   #44
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Instagram has damaged photography and camera sales significantly depending on your point of view. It's huge and it's linked directly to the smart phone and the way it works.
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Old 01-28-2019   #45
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Instagram has damaged photography and camera sales significantly depending on your point of view. It's huge and it's linked directly to the smart phone and the way it works.
A huge percentage of the pictures on instagram is made with real cameras.
And there is a real boom of film photography pics and content posted on instagram. The revival of film is strongly supported by instagram. All film (related) manufacturers meanwhile are very active on instagram and using it for marketing purposes (e.g. Kodak has now about 325,000 followers on instagram, Polaroid only a bit less, Ilford more than 130,000).

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-28-2019   #46
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[quote=Calzone;2864900]
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The jeep sounds like a lot of fun Cal..I'm really happy anywhere but my wife was dying to live rurally. We're surrounded by forest on 3 sides now!

Funny, people here tell me I have an accent. I say, "WHAT ARE YA TAWKIN? YOOZE HAVE ACCENTS!"

We've been here 25 years. Pretty different.




A dream came true when I bought a 1984 Jeep Scrambler with a half cab from a little old lady from Santa Fe. Only 20K miles and was a cherry. Later on I would install a Corvette engine, a Ford nine inch rear with Lincoln Continental brakes, and a NV 4500 200 pound cast iron tranny with both an underdrive and an overdrive.

I know it was a dumb thing to do, but I would wander around by myself in 4 wheel drive low rock crawling. Lucky I never got stuck. Did a lot of dumb things back then...

I'm with a city gal now. No car. She would never live rural.

At Princeton Grumman built a Tokamac nuclear reactor. I was not involved with that lab.

Kinda funny, but the world is not that big.

Cal
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Old 01-28-2019   #47
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Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
A huge percentage of the pictures on instagram is made with real cameras.
And there is a real boom of film photography pics and content posted on instagram. The revival of film is strongly supported by instagram. All film (related) manufacturers meanwhile are very active on instagram and using it for marketing purposes (e.g. Kodak has now about 325,000 followers on instagram, Polaroid only a bit less, Ilford more than 130,000).

Cheers, Jan

You can't upload a photo to instagram directly from a computer and this was always Instagram's intention. You have to send your image to a cloud or similar to get it on to your smart phone and then to Instagram from your phone. You can get an app to allow upload from a computer but they take some searching out also.

Instagram and the smart phone are connected at the hip and always have been.
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Old 01-28-2019   #48
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Canon and their shareholder's concerns. I'm a consumer.
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Old 01-28-2019   #49
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This is GREAT news!! There will be so much new old stock sitting in the warehouses, I'll be able to buy enough discounted premium camera gear to last out my days! :-)
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Old 01-28-2019   #50
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That is a myth spread only in photo forums. Has nothing to do with reality.
There are more than a dozen big factories for photo paper globally.
The photo paper market has a volume of more than 400 million m≤ p.a.
It's a huge market.

Cheers, Jan
I agree.
I regularly get 4x6 and 5x7 prints made at the local office supply place at their Fuji print kiosk. They have 6 terminals, last time I had to wait about 20 minutes before I could use one. Lots of people printing, mostly straight from their phone.
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Old 01-28-2019   #51
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Bill,

My fashion blogger gal has over 607K followers. She upgraded to an Iphone 10 and reports that the new phone's camera is the big reason to upgrade.

Meanwhile she camera-napped my Leica CL. I think eventually I'll get that CL back which I bought to exploit the crop sensor to convert my fast normal lenses into short telephotos.

Funny thing is that I'm not so good at taking pictures with a cellphone.

Cal
Cal, I use an iPhone Xs as well and it really is the first cellphone I feel I can use in good light when I don’t have my other cameras. It’s probably the best move for her. No shutter lag, two focal lengths, and computation methods to combat the small sensor. I don’t want to use it always but now I can when I don’t have my other cameras.
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Old 01-28-2019   #52
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I believe the traditional camera companies will soo be niche manufactures. Their niche is what smartphones can't do, which every year is shrinking. Smartphones can now do reasonable portraits for instance, panoramas work really well. It's just super wide and super tele that's left, along with people who like using a "traditional" camera.
The sky has already fallen.
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Old 01-28-2019   #53
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No, they didn't. Not like this. Film cameras continued to evolve and improve up until the end. The Nikon F6 and Canon 1V were absolutely at the top of the line, better than cameras before them. Today we see the tiniest iterations between digital cameras and as a result, few buy them and sales decline.

During the film era, camera companies had the moms, pops, and uncle bob's to sell mass market cameras too, to boost.
I’m not saying film cameras didn’t evolve. I’m just saying that they couldn’t have always been in a uptick period. People used film cameras for 20 years before upgrading... and the 126 and 110 cameras (and the previous generation equivalents) were the cellphones of today. Digital cameras have improved way faster than film cameras in their short lifespans. Of course, they already had film cameras to learn from.
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Old 01-28-2019   #54
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So get ready for Leica prices on the cameras that will be left...

Joe
Just paid $200 for a like new Leica R-E. Iím fine w Leica prices.
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Old 01-28-2019   #55
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Before digital consumer purchases of film cameras were in decline for a decade or more.
The advent of digital photography is probably what saved the remaining camera manufacturers.

Smartphones now can make digital photos good enough for most consumers, and far easier.
I'm not sure what new product might save the camera companies this time around.

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Old 01-28-2019   #56
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You can't upload a photo to instagram directly from a computer and this was always Instagram's intention.

Instagram and the smart phone are connected at the hip and always have been.
Exactly. Oft-forgotten in every discussion about smartphones is the fact that one can take photos with them and then post them on social media with just a few clicks. Which is something I can't do with any of my digital cameras. Lots of people have abandoned their digitals in favor of their phones because they can post the photos immediately. On Instagram, for example.

Oh, film on Instagram? Sure, its there.... But I'd be surprised if its more than a percent or two of total volume.
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Old 01-28-2019   #57
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But everything has a shelf life... including social media as we know it I would imagine.
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Old 01-28-2019   #58
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So what will Canikon do? Make camera phones? Robots?

Laws of physics dictate to me I need something bigger than a cell phone. So with me my "camera" will never be just my old phone.

Gosh maybe I'm the thing becoming obsolete here....
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Old 01-28-2019   #59
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So what will Canikon do? Make camera phones? Robots?

Laws of physics dictate to me I need something bigger than a cell phone. So with me my "camera" will never be just my old phone.

Gosh maybe I'm the thing becoming obsolete here....
This is their problem. Those of us who own and regularly use a dedicated camera are not getting any younger. I'd say everyone on this forum is obsolete.
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Last edited by michaelwj : 01-28-2019 at 18:09. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-28-2019   #60
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What will the camera makers do? Well, Canon said it would focus on surveillance and medical industries where they see growth. Imaging technology is not just photography so I expect there are various routes for camera makers to pursue.

But the world hasn't ended for us grisly old photographers as of yet. I suppose we have a few years left.
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Old 01-29-2019   #61
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I think the sensible makers of almost anything have the factory running smoothly and a short waiting list of customers.

The alternative seems to be make lots and lots and wait for the customers to come and that doesn't always work; especially when old stock is dumped at half price...

Regards, David
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Old 01-29-2019   #62
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You can't upload a photo to instagram directly from a computer and this was always Instagram's intention. You have to send your image to a cloud or similar to get it on to your smart phone and then to Instagram from your phone. You can get an app to allow upload from a computer but they take some searching out also.
There are several programmes and apps for uploading pics from a computer directly to instagram. It is not quite as convenient as uploading from a smartphone, but it isn't difficult or a problem either. That's the reason why the number of pictures from real cameras (digital and film) on instagram is strongly increasing.
All film (related) companies are making lots of marketing on instagram with meanwhile hundreds of thousands of followers. And the number of film photographers posting their pics on instagram is also significantly increasing.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-29-2019   #63
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Just paid $200 for a like new Leica R-E. Iím fine w Leica prices.
Wow, only 200 bucks for an R-E. Congrats!
It is an excellent camera, and the Leica R lenses are superb.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-29-2019   #64
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Before digital consumer purchases of film cameras were in decline for a decade or more.
The advent of digital photography is probably what saved the remaining camera manufacturers.
That's not true. There have been ups and downs over the years - often due to general worldwide economic ups and downs - but not a general decline.
Here is the data from CIPA:
http://cipa.jp/stats/documents/common/cr400.pdf

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-29-2019   #65
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Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
That is a myth spread only in photo forums. Has nothing to do with reality.
There are more than a dozen big factories for photo paper globally.
The photo paper market has a volume of more than 400 million m≤ p.a.
It's a huge market.

Cheers, Jan
I have not seen anyone show me a print in a good 10 years. Not one. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Even I print far less than I ever have, and I enjoy a good print.
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Old 01-29-2019   #66
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So what will Canikon do?
Canon's CEO said exactly what they are going to do, concentrate on industrial & medical imaging. He was actually quite clear in his language.
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Old 01-29-2019   #67
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So what will Canikon do? Make camera phones? Robots?

Laws of physics dictate to me I need something bigger than a cell phone. So with me my "camera" will never be just my old phone.

Gosh maybe I'm the thing becoming obsolete here....
So, what will the current digital camera manufacturers do: I think the following will make the most sense:
1. Accept the reality: Snapshooters will use smartphones. In the digital compact camera / built in lens camera market probably only special cameras like waterproof/underwater cameras, high-quality compact cams (like the new Zeiss) and super-zoom bridge cameras will have a place.
2. Accept the reality: ILC cameras will be used by professionals and photography enthusiasts, not by the casual shooter anymore. So this market will be smaller in the future than today. But it will remain a market of several million cameras p.a.
3. Maybe 1-2 manufacturers will follow Samsung and quit the market.
4. Photographers will use their cameras for longer periods. Companies will react to that by longer product cycles: Not every 2-3 years a new model, but every 4-6 years. That will also lower their costs. In my opinion that is good for companies and photographers.
5. Streamlined camera portfolios: Not 3-4 entry level models anymore, but 1-2. Lower costs for the manufacturers.
6. New products for the increasing film community: New film cameras and scanners. That may come from companies who have the capabilities for that like Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Hasselblad, Fujifilm, Leica. Not from companies like Sony, Panasonic, Olympus.

I remain quite relaxed concerning the future. The camera industry will adapt to a new situation. No, the sky is not falling .

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-29-2019   #68
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Let's not forget folks that the huge "surge" in film camera sales is 99% due to instant photography. Take that away and the film renaissance is hardly a blip on the radar.
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Old 01-29-2019   #69
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6. New products for the increasing film community: New film cameras and scanners. That may come from companies who have the capabilities for that like Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Hasselblad, Fujifilm, Leica. Not from companies like Sony, Panasonic, Olympus.

Cheers, Jan
Pentax has no capabilities. They are simply a Ricoh brand name now and has been left to languish.

Fujifilm in the recent past discontinued all film camera production (GF670, GF670W, Klasse S & W, Natura, etc; all canceled). They are not going to be leading any return to film.

Nikon axed their one affordable film camera and has let their one remaining one hang out to dry.

Canon shows no interest in film whatsoever.

Same with Hasselblad, who has no resources to make a film camera.

New film cameras are coming from kickstart. That alone tells you how impressive the resurgence is. Rank amateurs making new cameras. I'm STILL waiting for my returns to the kickstarts I backed. Film Ferannia has become the laughing stock of the film world. Years and years of delay with no end in sight. I've long since written off my backing of them as a total waste of money.
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Old 01-29-2019   #70
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I have not seen anyone show me a print in a good 10 years. Not one. Zero. Zip. Nada.
Fact is that there are more than a dozen huge photo paper factories worldwide producing more than 400 million m≤ photo paper every year, silver-halide and inkjet.
One of the big mass volume photo labs here in Germany alone (Cewe) is printing billions of pictures every year on silver-halide photo paper. The numbers are published.
Here in Germany you have one of the drugstore chain shops at "every corner of the street". All of them are offering photo prints. Either via their labs, or via photo kiosks.
Fujifilm alone is running three huge silver-halide photo paper factories worldwide. And last Photokina they have again (did that also in the last years) introduced a new highest-quality silver-halide photo paper (Maxima).

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-29-2019   #71
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It's not like that here in the largest consumer market in the world. I'm just sayin'.
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Old 01-29-2019   #72
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Same with Hasselblad, who has no resources to make a film camera.
Fact is they are making cameras for film usage! The H5 and H6 can be used with the dedicated Hasselblad film back.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-29-2019   #73
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It's not like that here in the largest consumer market in the world. I'm just sayin'.
Phil Forrest
Fujifilm has a photo paper factory in the US to serve the North American market. With an output of dozens of millions m≤ p.a.
Almost all NA photo labs also offer prints. Why? There is a demand.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-29-2019   #74
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Fact is they are making cameras for film usage! The H5 and H6 can be used with the dedicated Hasselblad film back.

Cheers, Jan
LOL!! I'm sure a lot of people are paying $15,000 for an H6 to use with film.

The H5 is listed as discontinued at B & H.
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Old 01-29-2019   #75
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Fujifilm has a photo paper factory in the US to serve the North American market. With an output of dozens of millions m≤ p.a.
Almost all NA photo labs also offer prints. Why? There is a demand.

Cheers, Jan
I'll let you know when I see a print.
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Old 01-29-2019   #76
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I'll let you know when I see a print.
Not necessary. All my photography friends in the US regularly show me the prints they have got from their labs or have done by themselves.

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Old 01-29-2019   #77
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There are three labs here in one of the largest cities in the US. They only do developing and printing runs when they have enough orders to make the most efficient use of chemistry.
As for your friends in the US, water seeks its own level. You choose to converse with like minded people, therefore you see more prints from your skewed sample space.
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Old 01-29-2019   #78
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Ok, let’s relax. I make photo books and that’s printing. Many people do this too. Also, the US does have plenty of photo kiosks to print from phones or sd cards in malls or target or whatever. It may not be the high quality printing you guys have in mind, but people still print. Adorama prints ALOT!
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Old 01-29-2019   #79
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LOL!! I'm sure a lot of people are paying $15,000 for an H6 to use with film.
No, they don't pay 15,000$ for a H6 with film back.
$15,000 is the price with digital back included.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 01-29-2019   #80
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Ok, letís relax. I make photo books and thatís printing. Many people do this too.
Exactly.
The global demand for these photo books have been increasing for years. That is the reason why Fujifilm has put money in R&D in the last years and developed new silver-halide photo papers specially designed for use in photo books.
Here in Germany we even have TV ads for that. It's a huge market.

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