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Which of the cheapo b&w ISO 400 films has the highest actual sensitivity?
Old 05-09-2019   #1
retinax
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Which of the cheapo b&w ISO 400 films has the highest actual sensitivity?

Hello folks,
I've been wondering - if I buy some cheaper ISO 400 film in addition to my beloved tmax 400, for fooling around with lenses that don't resolve that much anyway and for fun - I'd like to get actually good sensitivity in exchange for the grain and limited resolution I'll accept. Which of the cheap “400“ films is actually most sensitive? Probably not Foma, then there's APX/Kentmere, N74... what else? ultrafine isn't available in Europe afaik. I'll develop in x-tol 1:2.
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Old 05-09-2019   #2
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Kentmere 400 should be pushable at least @1600.
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Old 05-09-2019   #3
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Easy answer: Kentmere 400.
Fomapan 400 has much lower speed.
AgfaPhoto APX 400 and Rollei RPX 400 are only rebranded Kentmere 400, but at a significantly higher price.
Therefore Kentmere 400 is the best deal if you want to go cheap. But this film is of course not in the same class as TMY-2, but you certainly know that.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 05-09-2019   #4
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Pushability ist a good point and matters too, but I was mostly wondering about actual sensitivity as measured in shadow separation.
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Old 05-09-2019   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
Easy answer: Kentmere 400.
Fomapan 400 has much lower speed.
AgfaPhoto APX 400 and Rollei RPX 400 are only rebranded Kentmere 400, but at a significantly higher price.
Therefore Kentmere 400 is the best deal if you want to go cheap. But this film is of course not in the same class as TMY-2, but you certainly know that.

Cheers, Jan
Thank you. You wouldn't happen to know about N74 as well?
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Old 05-09-2019   #6
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Originally Posted by retinax View Post
Thank you. You wouldn't happen to know about N74 as well?
There is no significant difference in sensitivity between N74+ and Kentmere 400.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 05-09-2019   #7
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Indeed i have read positive stuff about ultrafine's "extreme" 400 and 100 speed film. Any of you compared it to "big brand" films like tri-x? As it is half the price, is it also half as good or is it comparable?

Sorry i don't mean to hijack the thread
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Old 05-09-2019   #8
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Had used Ultrafine 400 at 800 with very good results. Funny you ask because I intend to push it (on 120) to 1600 next week.

On my eyes, it certainly looks different than TriX. Is more similar to Ilford HP5+.

Ultrafine 100, haven't really used it outside of 100. Tried at 50 on D76 but didn't liked the results. Too much contrast but probably due to development rutine.

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Old 05-09-2019   #9
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Ultrafine (PhotoWarehouse) 400 is indeed comparable to HP5+

Arguably they are the same film. Not unlike Arista 50 is Pan F 50 is Ultrafine 50.
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Old 05-11-2019   #10
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I just realized Kentmere and Oreo N74 don't seem to be available in 120. Is my only cheap option the Foma for 120?
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Which of the cheapo b&w ISO 400 film's has the highest actual sensitivity?
Old 05-11-2019   #11
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Which of the cheapo b&w ISO 400 film's has the highest actual sensitivity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
I just realized Kentmere and Oreo N74 don't seem to be available in 120. Is my only cheap option the Foma for 120?


Check out Ultrafine Xtreme film lines.

Edit. Oh I just read that you are in Europe where Ultrafine is not available.


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Old 05-11-2019   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-9 View Post
Ultrafine (PhotoWarehouse) 400 is indeed comparable to HP5+

Arguably they are the same film. Not unlike Arista 50 is Pan F 50 is Ultrafine 50.


I have shot all ultrafine xtreme, kentmere amd hp5.
I found that the first 2 are quite on par, both in terms of quality and price. However, hp5 is way better (and 1.5 times more expensive)


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Old 05-11-2019   #13
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They say ultrafine 400 is rebadged Kentmere.
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Old 05-11-2019   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
They say ultrafine 400 is rebadged Kentmere.

Some say that, others say it's not. In any case the Kentmere stuff under all the known labels, Agfa APX, Adox CHS... is not available in 120...
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Old 05-11-2019   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
Some say that, others say it's not. In any case the Kentmere stuff under all the known labels, Agfa APX, Adox CHS... is not available in 120...
Adox CHS 100 II is not Kentmere 100! Not at all.
Kentmere 100 is in the boxes of
- Rollei RPX 100 (higher price)
- AgfaPhoto APX 100 (higher price)
- Oriental 100
- Fotoimpex CHM 100.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 05-11-2019   #16
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I am with Jan regarding Kentmere films. While Ultrafine xtreme is quite similar to Kentmere but I still can see some differences, for instance Ultrafine is less grainy than Kentmere a little bit


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Old 05-12-2019   #17
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I am surprised nobody mentioned Ilford PAN 400.

Quite more refined than Kentmere 400 for the same price (yet with a tendancy to price increase recently) and very close to HP5+.

Only available in 135-36, though.
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Old 05-12-2019   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
I am surprised nobody mentioned Ilford PAN 400.
Probably because Pan 100 and 400 are only officially offered by Ilford in certain markets (mainly NICS), and not generally worldwide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
Quite more refined than Kentmere 400 for the same price (yet with a tendancy to price increase recently) and very close to HP5+.
Here in Germany it is not imported by the official Ilford distributor. It is only offered by one wholesaler, who imports it by himself from other wholesalers in other countries. And so it is more expensive here compared to the Kentmeres.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 05-12-2019   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
Adox CHS 100 II is not Kentmere 100! Not at all.
Kentmere 100 is in the boxes of
- Rollei RPX 100 (higher price)
- AgfaPhoto APX 100 (higher price)
- Oriental 100
- Fotoimpex CHM 100.

Cheers, Jan
Of course. I got confused, the naming with CHS and CHM is not very easy to memorize.

Actually under the Agfa APX branding the 30.5 meter rolls seem to be cheapest (50), 36 frame rolls are indeed a little cheaper as Kentmere, but not a lot of places sell it under that branding in Germany.
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Old 05-12-2019   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
Here in Germany it is not imported by the official Ilford distributor. It is only offered by one wholesaler, who imports it by himself from other wholesalers in other countries. And so it is more expensive here compared to the Kentmeres.
The EU and the open Schengen market aren't dead yet.

German customers can buy some Ilford PAN 400 online from other EU countries.

Some French retailers price it at 4.80 € per 135-36 roll, all taxes included (Kentmere 400 is at 4.11 € per 135-36 roll at the same online store). If bought as packs, the real shipping costs amount, once calculated per roll, will be very low.
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Old 05-12-2019   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
German customers can buy some Ilford PAN 400 online from other EU countries.

Some French retailers price it at 4.80 per 135-36 roll, all taxes included (Kentmere 400 is at 4.11 per 135-36 roll at the same online store). If bought as packs, the real shipping costs amount, once calculated per roll, will be very low.
Would not make sense for us Germans, because the film - despite being more expensive than the Kentmeres - is still cheaper here compared to your example .
Price her is 4,75 including tax for a single film, and only 46,51 for a 10pack.
And shipping in Germany is cheaper than from an EU country to Germany.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 05-12-2019   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
Would not make sense for us Germans, because the film - despite being more expensive than the Kentmeres - is still cheaper here compared to your example .
Price her is 4,75€ including tax for a single film, and only 46,51€ for a 10pack.
Quite the very same price on both sides of the Rhein then.

In this case I more than before don't understand why you haven't recommended it. Of course it doesn't exist in 120 but the OP's question didn't tell it was only about 120.

Ilford PAN 400 is noticeably better than Kentmere 400 / Agfa APX 400 "New". At 4.65 € per roll for a 10x pack I would fill my freezer with a stack pack of 10x packs if I was after a good and cheap BW 400 film being a real 400. It is very unlikely that any of those English made films will be priced like the Foma films ever.
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Old 05-12-2019   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
Quite the very same price on both sides of the Rhein then.

In this case I more than before don't understand why you haven't recommended it. Of course it doesn't exist in 120 but the OP's question didn't tell it was only about 120.

Ilford PAN 400 is noticeably better than Kentmere 400 / Agfa APX 400 "New". At 4.65 per roll for a 10x pack I would fill my freezer with a stack pack of 10x packs if I was after a good and cheap BW 400 film being a real 400. It is very unlikely that any of those English made films will be priced like the Foma films ever.

OP here, that is interesting. It's not only about 120, but ideally both 135 and 120.

Where would one get this PAN 400?
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Old 05-12-2019   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax
Where would one get this PAN 400?
If you are in Germany, look here.

There is an online shop located in Belgium which lists them even cheaper (under 4 € per roll VAT included if bought as a 10x 135-36 pack) but I couldn't check the shipping costs out, you have to create an account to simulate an order and see what the shipping costs will be (free shipping for an order of 99.- € and above). Look there.

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Old 05-13-2019   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
If you are in Germany, look here.

There is an online shop located in Belgium which lists them even cheaper (under 4 per roll VAT included if bought as a 10x 135-36 pack) but I couldn't check the shipping costs out, you have to create an account to simulate an order and see what the shipping costs will be (free shipping for an order of 99.- and above). Look there.

Thank you, I had totally forgotten about Nordfoto. They also have very good prices on tmax 400 and hp5+ in 120, either of that might be the way I'll go.
In which ways have you found the pan 400 superior to Kentmere? I've found very little about it online, but one statement that it is an older emulsion than the Kentmere.
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Old 05-13-2019   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
In which ways have you found the pan 400 superior to Kentmere? I've found very little about it online, but one statement that it is an older emulsion than the Kentmere.
What PAN 400 exactly is remains unclear : new emulsion made from old recipes, or old HP5 (before the "Plus") emulsion stocks coated onto some modern polyester base ?

Anyway it's an excellent film without compromise on the quality, its interest is not only about the price. Normal but very pleasant grain for a 400, a real 400 (will be perfectly exposed when using a lightmeter set at 400 and used properly), very nice contrast, very good acutance, deep blacks (without being buried) and "popping" whites (without being washed out). I found the Kentmere quite more "flat" overall, with a more fuzzy grain.

I must say that the PAN 400 reminds me much the good old Tri-X "from before". To my eyes it "pops out" better than the old HP5.
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Old 05-13-2019   #27
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Based on recommendations here and elsewhere I just bought six rolls of Ilford PAN 400.
Ilford doesn't sell it here in USA. I had to order it from overseas, so it was not cheap.
But if it is as some describe similar to old HP5 or old Tri-X it will be worth the price paid.

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Old 05-14-2019   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPlatt View Post
Based on recommendations here and elsewhere I just bought six rolls of Ilford PAN 400.
Ilford doesn't sell it here in USA. I had to order it from overseas, so it was not cheap.
But if it is as some describe similar to old HP5 or old Tri-X it will be worth the price paid.
You nailed it.

With Kentmere 400 you're on a budget, the film is a compromise (actual 400 sensitivity contraringly to the Foma 400, but lack of character) and the low price is the key.

With Ilford PAN 400, the low price (in some areas of the world) is one clue, but you're also with an excellent film you may like very much and make your BW 400 of main use.

I develop it in D76 1+1 and I am very happy with the results.
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Old 05-14-2019   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway 61 View Post
What PAN 400 exactly is remains unclear : new emulsion made from old recipes, or old HP5 (before the "Plus") emulsion stocks coated onto some modern polyester base ?

Anyway it's an excellent film without compromise on the quality, its interest is not only about the price. Normal but very pleasant grain for a 400, a real 400 (will be perfectly exposed when using a lightmeter set at 400 and used properly), very nice contrast, very good acutance, deep blacks (without being buried) and "popping" whites (without being washed out). I found the Kentmere quite more "flat" overall, with a more fuzzy grain.

I must say that the PAN 400 reminds me much the good old Tri-X "from before". To my eyes it "pops out" better than the old HP5.
Crisper grain sounds great. I don't quite follow what you're saying about blacks and whites, I take that to be properties of a print, not a negative. Does that mean it has a straighter curve/less pronounced toe and shoulder than Kentmere? I'd actually like something with more of an S-curve to complement tmax with its near straight line. If you've found Kentmere flat, can that not be corrected with longer development?
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Old 05-14-2019   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiemchacsu View Post
I am with Jan regarding Kentmere films. While Ultrafine xtreme is quite similar to Kentmere but I still can see some differences, for instance Ultrafine is less grainy than Kentmere a little bit


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Did you run specific tests to measure it?
If not, it is all subjective. From my perspective Ultrafine 400 is crappier than K400.
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Old 05-14-2019   #31
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Link to PAN 400 data sheet : here.
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Old 05-14-2019   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Did you run specific tests to measure it?

If not, it is all subjective. From my perspective Ultrafine 400 is crappier than K400.



No I have not done a direct test, just random shots on both films but I am sure there is test elsewhere on the net.
Anyway, it is a little different as I stated earlier and both are on par.


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Old 05-14-2019   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPlatt View Post
Based on recommendations here and elsewhere I just bought six rolls of Ilford PAN 400.
Ilford doesn't sell it here in USA. I had to order it from overseas, so it was not cheap.
But if it is as some describe similar to old HP5 or old Tri-X it will be worth the price paid.

Chris
Please post your findings after using the film interested to hear your thoughts.
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Old 05-15-2019   #34
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The fastest 400 speed film I have ever tried is Delta 400. When Developed in Kodak Tmax Developer or Ilford DDX, it is the only 400 speed BW film I have tested that gave a true speed of 400.

I know it isn't a cheap film, but it is a very gorgeous film.


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Old 05-15-2019   #35
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Going cheap is false economy!
I am guilty of using Kentmere 400 and 100.
I prefer the 100 and easily pushed to 400..
Sensitivity is a second to high acutance and sharpness..
The Delta and T-Max may be a better solution.
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Old 05-15-2019   #36
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I have been around this circle several times. It made a lot of sense 30 years ago when I shot 12 or so rolls a week. Right now, I'm shooting two a week and have decided that film is the least expensive part of the work. I did use Kentmere 400 and found it close to if not right on 400 with D-23 1:1. That said, I've settled on Tri-X and prefer it to T-Max. With Chris's recommendation above, I will try Delta in a week or so. I've finally learned, and it's taken more years that it should have, that economizing on film makes little sense.
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Old 05-15-2019   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
Going cheap is false economy!
As basically only 120 shooter in B&W it tends to follow my experience, and there isn't much differential in price from HP5 to other choices.

Fomapan would be the obvious choice. I picked very few rolls of the 100 to test and run in a Holga. Kinda wish we still had dirt cheap film such as Shanghai GP3 of years gone, for that lo-fi use.

Been shooting on HP5 as in Europe it has a good price and distribution. It's a very versatile stock and with winter darkness gone, I haven't tried its pushability yet. I was thinking of trying Delta 400 but didn't, TMY is interesting for the "different blue response" but more expensive. However, I ordered Delta 100 with the long bright days being here. I tend to use a Yellow filter #12 on sunny days, and downrate 400 to 160 with the compensation and presumed loss of speed with HC110. Happy to support Fotoimpex (and Adox) as a dealer and the price difference between FP/HP and the Deltas is just a few cents.
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Old 05-15-2019   #38
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Yeah I may have come around to that conclusion too. Looking at paper puts film prices into perspective. Yesterday I placed an order and it didn't include cheap film, as I figured the price difference isn't big enough for it to make much sense, unless bulk loading, but I can't commit to the effort and lock-in for film I'm not completely convinced of. I ordered some more Tmax 400, and a little Adox HR-50 to try, all 135. I actually still have one or two rolls of Kentmere 400 that I got cheap rolling around, and will certainly find a use for them. As in 120 there is no cheaper option for real ISO 400 (in Europe) anyway, it will be HP5+ or Tmax 400, but I'll eventually buy that from Nordfoto, kindly recommended by Highway 61, where it (and Ilford papers!) are cheapest.
Thank you all for the input anyway, I've learned a lot in this thread. Of course this topic is never closed, carry on.
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Old 05-15-2019   #39
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I will say the "cheap" B&W film today -- Fomapan and Kentmere -- is actually pretty good, especially at ISO 100, which is the speed of which I'm most familiar. In my experience, the more expensive films, though "better," are not so to the degree to make or break a shot, unless you're getting down to the iso 25 or so or slower emulsions. Some of that really slow stuff has made my really old stuff look MF!

But I also believe that one of the best and economical ways to improve a picture is to opt for higher quality film as opposed to higher end equipment.

Anyway, lots of ways to split the apple.
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Old 05-15-2019   #40
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I gulped down 20 rolls of 120 last week so when ordering an emergency resupply, I had to go with Fomapan 400...
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