Clip test TMY-2 - obscured by the purple dye?
Old 06-11-2019   #1
retinax
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Clip test TMY-2 - obscured by the purple dye?

Hi all,
edit: please read carefully, the issue is not how to get rid of the purple dye. It's whether it affects clip tests (like described by Roger, R.I.P, here: http://rogerandfrances.com/subscript...xhaustion.html) used to determine fixing times/fixer exhaustion.


I just mixed fresh fixer, Adofix Plus, and the clearing time is around 7 minutes for TMY-2. This is weird in itself because with Tetenal stuff, it was under two minutes. But it got me thinking. The purple stuff that comes out of T-max films, might the clip test show the fixer dissolving that, rather than just kicking the silver halides out? I don't want to have to buy fixer testing strips...
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Old 06-11-2019   #2
madNbad
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Have you tried a pre soak before starting development? I've been rinsing for about 5 minutes before starting the developer and it seems to help. There is still some purple at the end of fixing (Ilford Rapid for 5 minutes)but not as much as before I started the pre soak.
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Old 06-11-2019   #3
retinax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madNbad View Post
Have you tried a pre soak before starting development? I've been rinsing for about 5 minutes before starting the developer and it seems to help. There is still some purple at the end of fixing (Ilford Rapid for 5 minutes)but not as much as before I started the pre soak.

I have no problem with the purple dye other than uncertainty if my clip tests are reliable. I usually do a pre-soak, too.
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Old 06-12-2019   #4
retinax
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I can fix for 14 minutes, although it's annoying, but I'm concerned that if the test does not clearly show the fixing action, but the dye dissolution, the criterion of doubled clearing time for fixer exhaustion might not be reliably noticed.
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Old 06-12-2019   #5
J enea
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I was taught, DO NOT over fix, it does not remove the dye. Over wash if you must.



So thats how I do it now. Fix for 6 min in C41 fixer, which i found does the best job of removing all films dyes. Then wash for 10 minutes. I do the Ilford style, so invert 10, 20 30, 40, 50 times. but I also, after the inversions, let the film sit in the water for 1.5 minutes with every new wash water. I find that the dyes wash out better that way. I can also see that the dyes is washing out, as I dump the wash water I can see it getting fainter.
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Old 06-12-2019   #6
jawarden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J enea View Post
I was taught, DO NOT over fix, it does not remove the dye. Over wash if you must.



So thats how I do it now. Fix for 6 min in C41 fixer, which i found does the best job of removing all films dyes. Then wash for 10 minutes. I do the Ilford style, so invert 10, 20 30, 40, 50 times. but I also, after the inversions, let the film sit in the water for 1.5 minutes with every new wash water. I find that the dyes wash out better that way. I can also see that the dyes is washing out, as I dump the wash water I can see it getting fainter.
Is there a downside to overfixing, like not being able to rinse it off? If I'm using a T-grain I usually give fixing extra time, say six minutes, though Ilford recommends three minutes.

By the way, you're doing more rinsing than Ilford, which recommends 5, 10, and 20 inversions. But I'm sure more doesn't hurt, it just uses a bit more water.

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/beginner...ocessing-film/
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Old 06-12-2019   #7
Steve M.
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14 minutes to fix? That's crazy. Is that what it says on the photography forums for your fixer? I'd switch back to what you had before. Two minutes is the way to go. I use a budget Arista Arifix powder fixer that I bought from Freestyle, and it works fine. Two minutes to fix most films and papers.
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Old 06-12-2019   #8
retinax
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Thanks for the replies, folks. Again, my issue isn't how to deal with the purple dye in general, it's the question weather it might affect the *test* for fixing times...
I agree 14 mins is insane. On the bottle it says 3-4 minutes. And I just tried with fomapan 200, 40-50 seconds! So the fixer is ok, it's a t-max-specific issue with this fixer apparently. Can it really take that long to fix? I really doubt it. But I can make out where I put the drop until nearly 7 minutes in. I think that must be the dye...
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Wash & Wash some more
Old 06-12-2019   #9
KenR
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Wash & Wash some more

I can't get rid of the purple no matter how long I fix. I use a combination of the Ilford 5-10-20-30 shake method, then use a wash aid and then wash for 30 minutes. Then they are clear.
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Old 06-12-2019   #10
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With the Fomapan, which has anti-halation-dye on the back, there seems to be the effect I'm hypothesizing for T-Max: If the piece of film is partly submerged, so that both emulsion and back get contact with the fixer, and then after 20 seconds fully submerged, the apparent clearing time is longer than if a drop of fixer is placed only on the emulsion side 20 seconds before submersion in fixer. This feeds my suspicion that I'm observing dye dissolution, not fixing action. The purple stuff in T-Max is in the emulsion or under it rather than on the back, but the same phenomenon might be occurring...

What could be the reason that this fixer is not great at dissolving the dye? PH? Probably no-one knows because the purple tint is discussed over and over without solution. I don't worry about a little bit of it remaining, but I do worry about teh reliability of clip tests.
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Old 06-13-2019   #11
J enea
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if you over fix, you run the risk of bleaching away the exposed part of the film, you could lose shadows and possibly burn out the highlights. At 14 min you might not run the risk of over fixing, but there is no need to fix that long, it wont remove the dyes. you can use a washing aid or mix your own, 40 grams sodium sulfite in a liter of water, or use clean sea water. wash for 2 min, then do your usual wash steps.



again, I found the best way is to let the film sit for 1-2 min per water change after agitation, along with using a neutral PH fixer. something like TF-4 or 5 or C41 fixer, which is the cheapest fixer you can buy
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Old 06-14-2019   #12
retinax
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Thanks for all the replies, but non address the core of my issue which is how the clearing test might be affected by the dye. I'll order sulfide toner soon anyway and that can be used to test for residual silver, so won't have to rely on the clearing test.
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Old 06-14-2019   #13
Steve M.
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I agree, we all sort of danced around your question (but I still say that a fixer that takes 7 minutes or 14 minutes or whatever is crazy whether it's old or new fixer), but how could the dye affect a clip test? Maybe in some sort of theoretical way, but I've never heard of it happening. A clip test is a clip test is a clip test. However long it takes to clear is where you begin your adjustments, and if it's anything like 7 minutes you throw it out, and if your new Adox fixer says that it takes 7 minutes even using a fresh batch I say throw that out too and get something like Kodak rapid fixer. Anything but the the Adox.

To put it in cliff notes form, the dye is a non issue, and I see no way that it could affect a clip test. But you do have a problem in my opinion, it's that fixer which takes 7 minutes even when fresh. You yourself said that 7 minutes sounded weird. It is. Get another fixer and don't worry about the dye.
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Old 06-19-2019   #14
retinax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
...
the dye is a non issue, and I see no way that it could affect a clip test.
Really? I mean it's being washed out during a clip test, so I don't understand where your confidence that it wouldn't affect the test comes from.
I've sent an e-mail to the distributor/manufacturer, they did actually ask a technical person, but I still received a non-answer - Cubic grain films may take longer to fix. Duh.
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