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Rolleicord III -- Frame Stop Does Not Work
Old 07-16-2014   #1
KoNickon
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Rolleicord III -- Frame Stop Does Not Work

Does anyone know how to fix this? Or point me to clear instructions somewhere? What I mean is that the camera will wind all the way through a roll of film -- it does not stop at frame 1 (or any other frame, for that matter). I assume I will need to remove the right side panel of the camera, which may not be easy to do without damaging the leather, but once I have the panel removed, what has to be done? Thanks in advance.

Nick
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Old 07-16-2014   #2
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Are you sure you inserted the film properly from under the steel stick in front of the bottom spool? Don't ask me how I know this
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Old 07-16-2014   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanP View Post
Are you sure you inserted the film properly from under the steel stick in front of the bottom spool? Don't ask me how I know this
Are you talking about the film sensor rollers?

Rolleicords do not have those. Only certain Rolleiflex models do.
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Old 07-16-2014   #4
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Originally Posted by Sarcophilus Harrisii View Post
Are you talking about the film sensor rollers?

Rolleicords do not have those. Only certain Rolleiflex models do.
My bad then
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Old 07-16-2014   #5
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To save the leather, try applying conditioner and let it soak in for a day or two. Apply more if it dries out. Then be very gentle when applying alcohol to dissolve the shellac and prying up the leather with a small spatula. Go slowly, My experience with old Rollei leather is that if I bend it it will crack, so you need to loosen most of the panel so you can get to the screws.

It isn't difficult to see what is going on in a Rolleicord once you get inside. Before that, though, try exercising the camera. Remove the back and push in the silver rod on the right side of the film chamber. Lots of times. Fast, let go quickly. This lever pushes the counter mechanism into an active position. Maybe, just maybe, it will loosen things up, knock a dead bug out of place, etc.
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Old 07-16-2014   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
Does anyone know how to fix this? Or point me to clear instructions somewhere? What I mean is that the camera will wind all the way through a roll of film -- it does not stop at frame 1 (or any other frame, for that matter). I assume I will need to remove the right side panel of the camera, which may not be easy to do without damaging the leather, but once I have the panel removed, what has to be done? Thanks in advance.

Nick
Well there are a few things it could be. The counter wheel that controls the frame spacing could be worn or damaged. Or the ratchet behind the wind knob controlled by the counter mechanism could be faulty.

Unlike a Rolleiflex, the Rollecord film advance mechanism isn't very complex and is fairly easy to understand. I sorted a V that was skipping frames a few months ago but I don't believe I bothered taking any digital images, sorry—the only way to establish what the issue is with your III will be to remove the right side leatherette, take off the cover and have a look. Because of the build quality of these cameras, it's quite possible cleaning, lubrication and adjustment may see it functioning correctly without the need for replacement parts—but you'll have to open it up to determine this, of course.
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Old 07-17-2014   #7
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I'm no expert but based on my yashica TLR which is basically a Rolleicord knock-off I would think that a misplaced or broken spring would be the most likely culprit followed by a bent lever. A worn spacing disc would still partly work and mark the interval even if it didn't hold when forced.
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Old 07-18-2014   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
Does anyone know how to fix this? Or point me to clear instructions somewhere? What I mean is that the camera will wind all the way through a roll of film -- it does not stop at frame 1 (or any other frame, for that matter). I assume I will need to remove the right side panel of the camera, which may not be easy to do without damaging the leather, but once I have the panel removed, what has to be done? Thanks in advance.

Nick
Lindemanns have a special on the Prochnow publications at the moment, greatly discounted. Prochnow's technical report is also available separately if preferred.

FYI

http://www.lindemanns.de/shop/photob...icalreport.php
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Old 07-18-2014   #9
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. Shellac? Didn't think that was part of the equation here. And I'm none too confident that once I get the side panel off, that I'll be able to figure out what does what. It may need to go to Krikor; we'll see.
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Old 07-18-2014   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
Thanks for the responses, everyone. Shellac? Didn't think that was part of the equation here. And I'm none too confident that once I get the side panel off, that I'll be able to figure out what does what. It may need to go to Krikor; we'll see.
If it was an Automat Flex I'd probably second that comment. But the Cords have maybe 20% of the parts in their advance system that one of those have (if that). It's not hard to see what is going on and even installing a scrap film into it and winding it with the cover removed is likely to be quite instructive. If it is simply not stopping at all from end to end, it may well be that the lever for the ratchet is jammed or the counter dial that feeds it isn't free. Even the lever that is actuated by the back is worth checking for proper function. Bottom line is some of us have more mechanical aptitude than others, and more perserverance. If you're all thumbs I'm not going to incite you to go beyond your comfort zone. However if, for instance, you can manage basic repair tasks on your car or motorbike you'd probably be fine, it is no more complex, just a smaller scale. If you take a look inside simply take plenty of digital pics as you go as reference. Over to you...
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Old 07-18-2014   #11
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Originally Posted by Sarcophilus Harrisii View Post
...If it is simply not stopping at all from end to end, it may well be that the lever for the ratchet is jammed or the counter dial that feeds it isn't free. Even the lever that is actuated by the back is worth checking for proper function. Bottom line is some of us have more mechanical aptitude than others, and more perserverance. If you're all thumbs I'm not going to incite you to go beyond your comfort zone. However if, for instance, you can manage basic repair tasks on your car or motorbike you'd probably be fine, it is no more complex, just a smaller scale. If you take a look inside simply take plenty of digital pics as you go as reference. Over to you...
I've done some work on cameras, but am definitely wary of getting in over my head (you can read a thread by me also on this forum about working on an FTb that gives an example).

I should be clearer that the frame counter does work; it just doesn't stop. So to your comment above, the counter dial does indeed seem to work fine.
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Old 07-18-2014   #12
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I'm with S. Harisii on the mechanical aptitude except I think it's not much beyond bicycle level. I can dismantle things like motorcycles but fixing and putting back together is another issue. I had an issue with the film advance of the Yashica 635 that I resolved by the process discussed: put a used reel with backing into the top slot and take the side panel off. Then work the knobs and levers and see what each does. Just go carefully.

If you've never dismantled and reassembled a mechanical device, don't start with a Rolleicord.
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Old 07-19-2014   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
I've done some work on cameras, but am definitely wary of getting in over my head (you can read a thread by me also on this forum about working on an FTb that gives an example).

I should be clearer that the frame counter does work; it just doesn't stop. So to your comment above, the counter dial does indeed seem to work fine.
Tell you what: I might have a Cord here with the side covers off. Let me have a look. If I do, I'll take a pic of the wind side for you, to give you some idea of what's behind it. Otherwise, Hans or Dan might have a pic or two to clue you up, perhaps?

In many ways the Cord is not as complex as an FTb, as Eg. Wind and shutter systems are not as integrated as your typical SLR.
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Old 07-19-2014   #14
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Originally Posted by KoNickon View Post
Thanks for the responses, everyone. Shellac? Didn't think that was part of the equation here. And I'm none too confident that once I get the side panel off, that I'll be able to figure out what does what. It may need to go to Krikor; we'll see.

Yep real leather was put on with orange shellac and alcohol . If you soak it and GENTLY lift between the case and leather...it could take an hour or more...well worth it. One thing that is common, a buildup of green corrosion on screw heads...these tend to look like blisters...I use a small scapel to slide between. You may need to reblack the leather if you need a LOOOONG soak
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Old 07-19-2014   #15
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Oh -- shellac was the adhesive. I thought you meant the leather was given a coating of shellac as a finish, which didn't seem to be the case with this camera. Not sure what you're referring to as the medium for soaking -- alcohol?

If the shellac/alcohol is anything like the cement used to adhere sewup bicycle tires to rims (about the stickiest stuff I've ever dealt with -- it was orange too), wouldn't something like paint thinner work? Of course, I think I actually might have used gasoline to clean rims more than once.

Regarding the screw head bumps (Rollei's version of Zeiss bumps, I guess) -- I see those on the lefthand panel, not the righthand one. Maybe someone has been inside the right side relatively recently.

Pictures would be great, Brett, if you have them. Bicycle repairs I can do -- they're way less intricate than a camera, I think. But I'm thinking pre-index shifting and NOT internal geared hubs!

Thanks for the advice, everyone.
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Old 07-19-2014   #16
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If I work on a Cord or Flex first I soak the leather with light machine oil so it won't crack when taking off. Here is a pic of I think an early Cord:
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Old 07-20-2014   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands) View Post
If I work on a Cord or Flex first I soak the leather with light machine oil so it won't crack when taking off. Here is a pic of I think an early Cord:
Yes Ron that would be a V or earlier—the clue is the end of the focus shaft, where you can see that the right hand side focus knob has been removed from it. Thank you for posting this.

As the image shows, whilst there are a few parts inside (excepting the focusing components, which you should not need to touch), there's nothing that is too particular about being removed. The main exception being the counter wheel, if removed you will need to rotate the wheel slightly on installation to tension the spring (you can see the end of the spring protruding from the counter near the "0". Just note it's default position with the back removed and ensure it is re-installed the same, with the spring tensioned, if you need to remove it.

The arm running along the front (top in Ron's image) actuates the wind lock and is connected to the wind via the shutter cocking/release arm. Of course it is meant to lock the wind at each frame until the shutter has been fired. If you do open yours up for a look, with a scrap film installed and the back in place, this is one of the things that you will need to check for correct function. If you don't have a scrap film, a spare 120 spool with a few turns of tape around the left hand side (as installed in the camera) will usually drive the gear shaft adjacent to the take up spool position.

Down near the bottom left of the pic, note the curved arm that ends near the opening for the wind knob. It comes out from under the counter. The pointy end of this lever is the bit that physically locks the film wind—it is the tip of the ratchet that fits the gear behind the wind knob (removed in this pic, obviously).

After decades this is a component that can give some problems, depending on use and care in operating your Rolleicord. If you have a Cord with a wind system that is basically working or is semi-functional and skipping a frame or three (particularly if wound rapidly) this is a prime suspect. If the tip wears (which can happen with a lot of use, rough treatment, a lack of lubrication, or all of the above) it may slip over the ratchet teeth and skip one or more frames, or, space them unevenly. Earlier this year I was able to restore correct operation to a V that was skipping frames by removing the lever arm and carefully re-profiling the tip with a small file and polishing it. This needs some care, as the profile must ensure the wind knob is securely locked, however if the angle is too acute it may discourage the arm from releasing smoothly when the shutter is fired. If you have a Cord with a stiff, clunky or sticky shutter release lever, wear and/or a lack of lubrication at this location is one of the first things to check for.

It's probably unlikely to be the main cause of your particular Rolleicords failure to stop at all when you wind a film, but you should still check it carefully. If a ham-fisted owner tried to force the wind knob, I suppose it could fail completely if bent or broken. In your case, however I'm inclined to think the wind lock parts or those connecting it to the counter wheel may be sticking?

Also check the counter itself. It's a thin disc, and not especially tough. Unlike a typical 35mm SLR for instance, the counter of a Rollei isn't merely a slave driven informative component, the failure of which is often inconsequential to operation of the remainder of the system. The Rollei counter does, of course, inform the user of the frame count—but it is very much an integral part of the wind system. Those teeth around its circumference are part of the gearing that space and stop the film wind. I've had to carefully re-profile bent teeth in the past, to correct faults. If wear or damage is severe then naturally the only viable repair may be a replacement counter. If you see a bunch of broken or stripped teeth on your counter wheel after removing the wind side cover, that will be your problem...

This should be enough to give you some idea of what to start with, keep us posted!
Cheers,
Brett
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Old 07-20-2014   #18
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(But missing teeth between the numbers 5 and 6 are correct! This area will come rotate into position with the drive gear seen next to '5' and allow the drive system to freewheel at the end of a roll.)
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Old 07-20-2014   #19
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Very helpful indeed! Thanks, all.
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Old 03-24-2019   #20
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I have a similar issue, although with a Cord V, and occasionally the frame eventually locks in like it should.
It works fine when I dry run it with back open, without film. Also quite minty copy, I doubt something is worn. Any ideas?

Did you fix the problem, Nick?
Which substance should I soak the leather in?
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Old 03-24-2019   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlovak View Post
I have a similar issue, although with a Cord V, and occasionally a frame locks.
It works fine when I dry run it with back open, without film. Also quite minty copy, I doubt something is worn. Any ideas?

Did you fix the problem, Nick?
Which substance should I soak the leather in?



No experience with these cameras here, but... If the leather is indeed glued on with shellack, the right solvent is ethanol. Ask me how I accidentally confirmed my guitar is actually finished with shellac... You probably should treat the leather, if it's real, sparingly with some leather oil afterwards because ethanol will dry it out. It could also wash out some dye, so be careful, try first in a small spot. Actually try first if it can be peeled off dry.

One possibility with old cameras is always dried out, sticky lubricants, in the counter mechanism they could have this effect.
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Old 03-24-2019   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlovak View Post
I have a similar issue, although with a Cord V, and occasionally the frame locks.
It works fine when I dry run it with back open, without film. Also quite minty copy, I doubt something is worn. Any ideas?

Did you fix the problem, Nick?
Which substance should I soak the leather in?
Have an V and it happens specially around frames 4-7. The counter sticks and the interlock blocks advance. Curiously I find that holding the shutter lever after exposure lets advance do its thing, but don't do that long otherwise it's gonna advance and skip frames. I notice when it does that, opening the back may not reset the counter so it's a sticky mechanism.



Sadly ine requires some focus adjustment so it sits awaiting a more proper CLA... Or just call it a Rolleicord with a Holga identity crisis
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Old 03-26-2019   #23
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Luckily didn't need to use the alcohol, slowly tore the leather off and helped it with a small screwdriver.


I took the side plate off and tested it dry, with tape on spool to imitate film, and with a film itself, everything SEEMED to work.

It's actually annoying, since I had the issue with my first roll through this camera, then dry tested (worked), then I tried with a new roll - same error, and here I am.
The first ruined roll had 5 shots on the negative, with the gap between first and second being the largest, last 3 exposures were working fine. The frame number was nearly on, but ever so narrowly fell back with every wind, failed to lock in. The second roll I rewound on the original spool in the dark.
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Last edited by Karlovak : 03-26-2019 at 05:18. Reason: Edited in the results
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Old 03-26-2019   #24
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It appears though that when I use little tape to imitate the start of the roll, it takes more winds to switch between frames (6-7), but when I use more tape to imitate a nearly exposed roll, it takes about 3-4 winds. The frame switching mechanism seems to have some difficulty when there isn't much pressure on it from the film.
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Old 03-29-2019   #25
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Made a video of the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za935k7YN8M

It seems to only happen when the double exposure lock is on, locks fine otherwise.
Already doused everything in the side panel with naphtha and gun oil.
It sometimes doesn't happen when camera is down sideways, like in the video.
Yet happens all the time when camera is upright, so gravity also holding something back.

It seems the culprit is the gear under the wind-knob not getting locked by the tip of the ratchet.
Might be from the ratchet not getting enough tension to hold the gear from advancing?

Any ideas? Should I open up the other side- or the front panel?
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Old 03-29-2019   #26
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Made a video of the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za935k7YN8M

It seems to only happen when the double exposure lock is on, locks fine otherwise.
Already doused everything in the side panel with naphtha and gun oil.
It sometimes doesn't happen when camera is down sideways, like in the video.
Yet happens all the time when camera is upright, so gravity also holding something back.

It seems the culprit is the gear under the wind-knob not getting locked by the tip of the ratchet.
Might be from the ratchet not getting enough tension to hold the gear from advancing?

Any ideas? Should I open up the other side- or the front panel?
Assuming all the relevant parts are moving freely and not sticking unduly it could be the ratchet tip if you can feel it trying to catch on the gear teeth. This can be carefully re-profiled but must follow the original profile or increased pressure needed on the release lever and a less progressive shutter release action can result. If the ratchet isn't skipping the gear teeth at all, it's likely the lever itself isn't moving correctly. Experiment with manually helping the lever etc to analyse the nature of the fault and compare the effects of the lens board raised or lower to different focal distances. Correct operation of the system should be verified at any focus distance before it may be called "good".
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Old 03-29-2019   #27
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Hmm, it appears the lever needs to be helped a little (when the double exposure lock is activated), then the tip of the ratchet clicks with the gear. It doesn't need to be helped when the double exposure lock isn't activated. I wonder how the mechanism works that I can't see (what travels from the double exposure lock knob in the front left of the camera to the opened right side panel).
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Old 03-29-2019   #28
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Have you adjusted the eccentric nut at the lower right edge of the wind knob? At about 5 o'clock if the camera was sitting upright. You'll see a silver ring with a screw in the middle and one slot in the ring. Loosen the screw and move rotate this ring, using the slot as both a leverage point and an indicator of how much you are moving it. Do small movements in both directions, maybe 2mm at a time.


The connection to the double exposure system is the horizontal bar (when camera is upright) that travels from the back of he focus plate and the front of the camera, just below the focus axle. The front edge has a tab that goes into a silver piece with a long slot in it. The silver piece is then commented to the lens board's double exposure levers. If you fire the camera you should see this moving. It is possible to put the camera back together and not engage the lens board tab properly with the silver lsotted piece, and then life gets messy!
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Old 03-29-2019   #29
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Hey thanks! That nut did it, it seems.
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Old 03-29-2019   #30
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Hey thanks! That nut did it, it seems.

Great! It adjusts how deep the tooth or whatever it is called goes into the gears for stopping the wind knob.
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