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Issues with Leica, the company
Old 08-09-2015   #1
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Issues with Leica, the company

Can't keep up with all the new Leica's. Everything was fine up to and including the M9 then it all went haywire. Every time someone mentions an MA, M-P or whatever I have to go the Leica website and look it up. Why Leica after all these years have you made such a nomenclature mess of things?
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Old 08-09-2015   #2
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Old 08-09-2015   #3
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Trying to expand thier customer base. Im 61' my kids would never shoot my M4, M6, or M8. They would shoot at Leica T etc. These kids grew up with tech everything. Heck the T is some what like an iphone.

Leica can't survive on film cameras or old school digital. They have to target a younger buyer, that wants wi-fi better screens, hip styling. It's called a conquest buyer, sell them a T to get them away from the iphones. Then maybe they will see the value in something other than a phone camera, and move up the Leica product line.
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Old 08-09-2015   #4
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I have the same problem.. Too many alphabet soup models. Too many overlaps. I liked it better when they kept things simple.
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Old 08-09-2015   #5
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agreed, I got confused after M9 also and fall by the wayside. perhaps its just "web distortion" but now that same line of camera is called M240, not just M as Leica obviously intended. similarly their analog camera names got lost in translation, least for me. was M-P a digital or analog? oh without dash its analog and with dash digital?
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Old 08-09-2015   #6
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Nikkor lens labelling is perhaps even worse. Who can keep track of D, F, G, AS, AI, AIS, AP, UPI...
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Old 08-09-2015   #7
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I have to google almost every camera I don't have. So what...
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Old 08-09-2015   #8
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Originally Posted by hendriphile View Post
Nikkor lens labelling is perhaps even worse. Who can keep track of D, F, G, AS, AI, AIS, AP, UPI...
It's an epidemic of confusion. But at least as of late their camera bodies are fairly logicaly named.
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Old 08-09-2015   #9
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they're doing the best they can with a limited number of single digits. i say give them a break.
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Old 08-09-2015   #10
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Can't keep up with all the new Leica's. Everything was fine up to and including the M9 then it all went haywire. Every time someone mentions an MA, M-P or whatever I have to go the Leica website and look it up. Why Leica after all these years have you made such a nomenclature mess of things?
As many of you know, I hate this new Leica naming scheme. I find it confusing, unnecessarily so.

So the bottom line question is why? Did Kaufman's Elfs just make a huge error, or was it something else?

I think it was something else. I suspect the new confusing model names was carefully designed with the intent to confuse -- so hapless consumers would be forced to consult with their ultimate Leica resource - the LEICA STORE.

Yep, I think its a scheme to drive confused consumers into Leica Stores.

Of course maybe thats not it at all. None the less its difficult to imagine Leica making a huge blunder like this without having a very calculated reason for it.

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Old 08-09-2015   #11
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Bothers me not at all. If I have to look something up, I look it up.

Consider the M sequence, not counting various specialized, low-production editions in all the different basic model production.

film:
M3
M2
M1
M4
M5
M4-2
M4-P
M6
M6TTL (0.72x, 0.58x, 0.85x)
M7
MP
M-A

digital:
M8
M8u
M8.2
M9
M9-P
M-E
M Monochrom
M typ 240
M-P typ 240
M Monochrom typ 246
I don't know what's so confusing. The M8 family has three models in it, the M9 family has four models in it. The typ 240/246 succeeds the M9 and has three models. The M-A is a film MP without a meter, in essence. What's for sale today, new production, are M7, MP, and M-A in film and M-E, M/M-P typ 240, M Monochrom typ 246 in digital. Seven models ...

Surely photographers who keep a half dozen different film types and characteristics, with sliding scales of time/temperature/dilution for different speeds and contrasts, in their head can remember seven camera models ... ?

G
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Old 08-09-2015   #12
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It isn't that difficult:
S = the medium format camera system.
M = well, M - the 240 being the latest digital version
X = fixed lens APS-C digital camera
T = interchangeable lens APS-C digital camera

-E = is the (cheaper) economy model within a range (usually last generations tech)
-P = is a better build version of the main camera
The M60 is a speciality camera
And there are two film M's listed: M-A and M7.
See, it isn't that hard.

Somebody mentioned Nikon - what is the thing with D3, D3s, D3x? D800, D800E? But all this is much, much easier then the Canon Rebels - while they have a nice number in Europe (now at 760D), the American Rebels have it seems a random set of letters and numbers: XT, XS, T1i, SL1 and the T5 and T5i where the T5 is newer then the T5i
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Old 08-09-2015   #13
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Leica could go back to a naming scheme like they used for their screw mount cameras, and there would be even more confusion.
Aesthetically I don't like the dash, and the Typ 240, 246 etc. numbers seem arbitrary, but other than that it is all fairly logical.
I think Epson are the worst offender, because they reuse number ranges that they have used for scanners on their printer line. That is confusing!
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Old 08-09-2015   #14
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It is totally ridiculous, IMO.
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Old 08-09-2015   #15
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copying from Godfreys: M9, M9-P, M-E, M Monochrom, M typ 240, M-P typ 240, M Monochrom typ 246.

to me this looks like one helluva mess, because it was made in past few years only. not like two decades of M4, M5, M4-2, M4-P (that also can look odd).
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Old 08-09-2015   #16
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At least they've resisted the temptation to tack on zeroes (Nikon) or "marques" (Canon). If Leica nomenclature had taken an unswervable course back in the economy of the Weimar Republic, there might have been a Leica II,000,000a...

Current branding appears to be based on kindergarten blocks (special attention to letters M, T, Q, X, followed by P and A; C and D traded to Minolta and Panasonic in return for blocks marked $$$$$$ [i.e., all 6 sides]), superstitiously avoiding ordinal numbers after 9 or rather skipping to the small-print 3-digits (Typ 113 et al).

If you choose to be amused, it's playtime! My M5 and OM4 look on like grandpa and grandma outside the sandbox....
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Old 08-09-2015   #17
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Bottom line: techno-weenies are wack jobs. (Oops, I'm an actuary)
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Old 08-09-2015   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I don't know what's so confusing. The M8 family has three models in it, the M9 family has four models in it. The typ 240/246 succeeds the M9 and has three models. The M-A is a film MP without a meter, in essence. What's for sale today, new production, are M7, MP, and M-A in film and M-E, M/M-P typ 240, M Monochrom typ 246 in digital.
Ok, now I´m confused.
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Old 08-09-2015   #19
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Originally Posted by jarski View Post
copying from Godfreys: M9, M9-P, M-E, M Monochrom, M typ 240, M-P typ 240, M Monochrom typ 246.

to me this looks like one helluva mess, because it was made in past few years only. not like two decades of M4, M5, M4-2, M4-P (that also can look odd).
The M4 was in production from '68 to '74, the M5 from '71 to '75, the M4-2 from '78 to '80, the M4-P from '81 to '87. Even the M3 was only in production from '54 to '68 and the M6 (longest production life of all) from 1984-2003.

No single Leica body has been in production for two decades yet. Most of the film models have a four to five year production span. The digital models are changing more quickly because the underlying digital capture technology is only just barely 20 years old in a production sense, where the 35mm film camera technology, even at the introduction of the M, was already past thirty years old.

G

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Old 08-09-2015   #20
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Originally Posted by kshapero View Post
Bottom line: techno-weenies are wack jobs. (Oops, I'm an actuary)
I'm a writer and photographer. In my writing work, I explain what techno-weenies create. They may be "wack jobs" but they are extremely smart people.

G
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Old 08-09-2015   #21
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If you think having MP and M-P being sold at the same time is not weird, then there's something wrong with you. Of course I'm talking about the names of the models only.
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Old 08-09-2015   #22
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Some people simply have problems if a name has more than one letter or digit it seems. It turns out Leica was right in avoiding the M10 label One letter-two digits would have overwhelmed some users.
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Old 08-09-2015   #23
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I just looked at Nikon's website and pulled up all their DSLR's. There are 16 of them, and some of them have multiple buying options (like 'the filmmaker's kit', 'the animator's kit' etc). Gave me a headache looking at all the various 'D' bodies and their iterations.

Leica doesn't confuse me at all, and the various naming schemes don't personally bother me. If you find it confusing and upsetting, look away! Quite simple really.
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Old 08-09-2015   #24
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I just looked at Nikon's website and pulled up all their DSLR's. There are 16 of them, and some of them have multiple buying options (like 'the filmmaker's kit', 'the animator's kit' etc). Gave me a headache looking at all the various 'D' bodies and their iterations.

Leica doesn't confuse me at all, and the various naming schemes don't personally bother me. If you find it confusing and upsetting, look away! Quite simple really.
What!!! Nikon's naming scheme is very logical. Now quick: Difference between an MP and a M-P. Quick....see wacko!!
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Old 08-09-2015   #25
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Simple--MP is the Member of Parliament model, M-P the Military Police model. Wait. I may have it backwards.
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Old 08-09-2015   #26
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What!!! Nikon's naming scheme is very logical. Now quick: Difference between an MP and a M-P. Quick....see wacko!!
Which MP? the original or the new one?
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Old 08-09-2015   #27
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Actually Leica revamped the naming scheme to resemble other technical objects - like Mercedes for instance or BMW. A Mercedes 500 S can be one of various models with the Wxxx types denoting the various chassis types over the years, etc. it appeals to the logical and tidy German mind, the more chaotic and pragmatic Anglo-Saxons and their colonial spinoffs will be confused by this type of systematic thinking.
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Old 08-09-2015   #28
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Which MP? the original or the new one?
There in lies the confusion.
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Old 08-09-2015   #29
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Indeed, but the MP is still within the old film camera naming scheme. Were it that the full name were MP Typ987 versus MP Typ123, there would be no confusion.
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Old 08-09-2015   #30
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Actually Leica revamped the naming scheme to resemble other technical objects - like Mercedes for instance or BMW. ...
So when Rip Van Winkle wakes up, he will still be able to walk into a shop and ask for a Leica M, 50mm Summicon and some Tri-X
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Old 08-09-2015   #31
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Actually Leica revamped the naming scheme to resemble other technical objects - like Mercedes for instance or BMW. A Mercedes 500 S can be one of various models with the Wxxx types denoting the various chassis types over the years, etc. it appeals to the logical and tidy German mind, the more chaotic and pragmatic Anglo-Saxons and their colonial spinoffs will be confused by this type of systematic thinking.
That may be the official story (I don't know), but I just don't believe that is the true reason.

Why?

Over half a century of M mount cameras prior to the M240 - appropriately named products by far more logical German minds.

Stephen
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Old 08-09-2015   #32
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I wouldn’t know why. One naming scheme has little advantage over the other to my mind. It is just a camera- and just a name.
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Old 08-09-2015   #33
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I wouldn’t know why. One naming scheme has little advantage over the other to my mind. It is just a camera- and just a name.

Unless it doesn`t make sense and this doesn`t make any sense at all at any level.
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Old 08-10-2015   #34
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I used to call my M8 all sorts of names .... none of them particularly flattering!
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Old 08-10-2015   #35
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Why should it make sense?
As it is it is quite logical. The letter denotes the type of camera and the number in the background the specific model.

Sometimes, for extra clarity or for marketing reasons there may be a nickname like Monochrom, or Safari, or Titanium, or even more of a complicating and confusing factor, given by customers like MM2 or M10 (the most confusing one of all as it will have the uninitiated searching for a nonexistent camera - however our Bartender is in the good company of Erwin Puts by using the designation colloquially)
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Old 08-10-2015   #36
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Sometimes, for extra clarity or for marketing reasons there may be a nickname like Monochrom, or Safari, or Titanium ....
I think that`s my point really.
If there is a requirement for extra clarity it suggests that it isn`t sufficiently clear in the first case.
Until this new nomenclature was introduced there wasn`t a requirement for an additional naming structure for either clarity or marketing purposes.
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Old 08-10-2015   #37
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Eh? M9 Hermes, Titanium, M6J? etc...
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Old 08-10-2015   #38
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The M8 was obviously intended for Aussies, Keith.
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Old 08-10-2015   #39
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Bothers me not at all. If I have to look something up, I look it up.

Consider the M sequence, not counting various specialized, low-production editions in all the different basic model production.

film:
M3
M2
M1
M4
M5
M4-2
M4-P
M6
M6TTL (0.72x, 0.58x, 0.85x)
M7
MP
M-A

digital:
M8
M8u
M8.2
M9
M9-P
M-E
M Monochrom
M typ 240
M-P typ 240
M Monochrom typ 246
I don't know what's so confusing. The M8 family has three models in it, the M9 family has four models in it. The typ 240/246 succeeds the M9 and has three models. The M-A is a film MP without a meter, in essence. What's for sale today, new production, are M7, MP, and M-A in film and M-E, M/M-P typ 240, M Monochrom typ 246 in digital. Seven models ...

Surely photographers who keep a half dozen different film types and characteristics, with sliding scales of time/temperature/dilution for different speeds and contrasts, in their head can remember seven camera models ... ?

G
Ahem. I wasn't even aware there were two different monochrome models already. Obviously I'm not the target audience, or I haven't been paying attention.

As for there being merely seven different models for sale, of course that's only counting new cameras, not the used market. And that's only right now. In six months it'll change again. But surely we should be expected to remember... Oh never mind.

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Old 08-10-2015   #40
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Why should it make sense?
As it is it is quite logical. The letter denotes the type of camera and the number in the background the specific model.
The new naming denotes a specific camera, but it doesn't explain a specific model. Leica started out with good intentions for the M3, but soon saw a flaw in their strategy. So they defaulted to a numerical progression that at least told customers when in the Leica catalogue it appeared. Leica have been quoted as wanting a new naming strategy similar to that used by the iconic Porsche company, hence Typ 240, then Typ 246 (presumably the new model of the M240, but maybe a backwards step because I hear people are complaining the colour output isn't very good). Meanwhile Porsche have gone from the Typ 996, to Typ 997, to the next logical step the Typ 991.... It all makes sense to aficionados, or people who work in the factory, but Typ numbers and T, Q, X, etc. are meaningless to most people just browsing for a new camera, and if their attention isn't grabbed immediately it's a potential lost sale. Why has Zeiss started giving it's premium lenses weird names for instance? Yes, well spotted, it's to make them memorable, to equate rave reviews with memories of seeing an advert for them. It all comes together in the buyers mind even before they look up the price. How different to the amorphous Leica derived names, I mean what does 'X' mean, what does it tell you? What does Typ 246 tell you?

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