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Previously flawless M240 fails after 30 day return period
Old 08-28-2015   #1
chaospress
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Previously flawless M240 fails after 30 day return period

I purchased a new M240 on July 23.... Today for the first time I hit a bump in the road with it. It has worked flawlessly up to now, but on the last part of a 45 minute walk, it made no exposure two different times with the shutter click. Both times I shut the camera off and it was up and running again. Since I've come to expect this camera was trouble free after already having returned another copy that needed shutter replacement from Leica, this is cause for concern.

I wasn't using live view and menu settings were the same as I've always had them.
I'd expect for the price of a new M240 it would be bullet proof. It's a great camera but it has to work.

What are your experiences or thoughts?
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Old 08-28-2015   #2
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My experience: I purchased a new M-P from Leica USA as upgrade to my M9 in February of this year. It has worked flawlessly, and has now recorded over 3500 exposures.

My thoughts: Call Leica and talk to Customer Service before making statements about problems on internet forums. Leica USA has gone out of their way on several occasions to ensure that I received the help I needed with their products. No machine is ever perfect.

G
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Old 08-28-2015   #3
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^^
Like G said. Call Leica USA. Ask them to have your area sales rep call you.
Maybe there is a bad batch or mishandling somewhere in the supply stream. Most likely just bad luck.

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Old 08-28-2015   #4
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Could it possibly be the memory card and not the camera? Just a thought.
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Old 08-28-2015   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
My thoughts: Call Leica and talk to Customer Service before making statements about problems on internet forums. Leica USA has gone out of their way on several occasions to ensure that I received the help I needed with their products. No machine is ever perfect.

G
Valid point, although part of the reason it probably wasn't the first thing that came to mind is because I was on the phone with them re the first M240 I had, and while they were very patient and kind, the upshot of what they told me was to "send it in." At this point I am in no mood to send this camera in after having had to return the first one.

That no machine is ever perfect as far as functioning without mishap is simply untrue. I've used electronic digital cameras for years that never required rebooting. In fact none of them did- these 2 M240's have been the first.

I am not out to bash Leica, they're great cameras, otherwise I wouldn't have used them for the past 35 years. But please understand my frustration here. I haven't stated anything other than what has occurred.
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Old 08-28-2015   #6
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3rd party batteries?
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Old 08-28-2015   #7
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Again... Get the sales rep for your area.

In 2012 I had one of the best CS experiences ever with any company.
Leica put the nw rep in touch with me, he helped me with an insurance claim after a theft.
Then when my replacement lenses arrived and One had a mechanical issue, it was again the rep who sorted things out .
If you bought your camera new through an authorized dealer, they (leica) have someone out there to help with problems.
At least they did three years ago. I bet they still do.

We are fortunate in North America. Leica Solms does not have the same reputation of good responsive Customer service.
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Old 08-28-2015   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaospress View Post
I purchased a new M240 on July 23.... Today for the first time I hit a bump in the road with it. It has worked flawlessly up to now, but on the last part of a 45 minute walk, it made no exposure two different times with the shutter click. Both times I shut the camera off and it was up and running again. Since I've come to expect this camera was trouble free after already having returned another copy that needed shutter replacement from Leica, this is cause for concern.

I wasn't using live view and menu settings were the same as I've always had them.
I'd expect for the price of a new M240 it would be bullet proof. It's a great camera but it has to work.

What are your experiences or thoughts?
My M9 did exactly them same thing. If it works well after removing the battery, I would replace the card with a new one and see what happens.

I finnally isolated my issue: never format card in camera with M9. Just erase all. Once I instituted this policy, the camera stopped freezing and cards last forever.
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Old 08-28-2015   #9
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Re memory cards and batteries:

The memory card is a SanDisk Extreme 45MB/s 16BG card. What it did do in the past couple weeks is stop in the middle of shooting video with a message saying something about the card being too slow to keep shooting video. I didn't give that much thought since I don't shoot much video anyway. At any rate though, I've never had a card cause a problem on a digital camera.

Battery is the original Leica battery and charge on it at the time of the misfires was 65%.
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Old 08-28-2015   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaospress View Post
Re memory cards and batteries:

The memory card is a SanDisk Extreme 45MB/s 16BG card. What it did do in the past couple weeks is stop in the middle of shooting video with a message saying something about the card being too slow to keep shooting video. I didn't give that much thought since I don't shoot much video anyway. At any rate though, I've never had a card cause a problem on a digital camera.

Battery is the original Leica battery and charge on it at the time of the misfires was 65%.
It is a difficult to find spec, but the typ 240 cameras were designed to work with 90 MB/s cards. The tech rep at Leica told me that when I saw video artifacts and asked. I replaced my cards with the higher spec and the artifacts disappeared.

G
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Old 08-28-2015   #11
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Maybe ask for a loaner if they want you to send it in.
Leica wants to be identified as a luxury brand, so they should back it up with luxury service.

Whatever happens, keep reporting your experience with them (Leica). I'm in agreement with you, at the price point, the least it should be is reliable.
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Old 08-28-2015   #12
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FWIW...

I have had at least 10 DSLRs, 6 mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras, and 5 digital RFs - I had to send 2 of those in for service (1 Leica and 1 Epson).

So, my experience points to better reliability for any except RFs - and about equal reliability between Epson and Leica....
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Old 08-28-2015   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post

We are fortunate in North America. Leica Solms does not have the same reputation of good responsive Customer service.
That really depends on the forum posts you read - I would say blame and praise is spread fairly evenly over both.
CS Solms is certainly a washout though. the building is deserted...
I usually deal with Wetzlar - much better.
Seriously, I only had one failure of CS with the Mothership in over forty years. For the rest they have been exemplary in personal communication, work quality, responsiveness and loaners.
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Old 08-28-2015   #14
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Well, I charged the battery a bit, put in a SanDisk Ultra II 2GB card, and went out again for an hour and made 30 exposures. I have no idea how that card compares to the other, but there were no problems this time, so maybe this was a rare glitch that won't be repeated too often or hopefully not at all.

I certainly wouldn't have posted this soon except that I think my patience was all used up trying to suss out the issue with the first camera I returned that had to have the shutter replaced. I'll see how it goes this weekend.
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Formatting?
Old 08-28-2015   #15
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Formatting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
My M9 did exactly them same thing. If it works well after removing the battery, I would replace the card with a new one and see what happens.

I finnally isolated my issue: never format card in camera with M9. Just erase all. Once I instituted this policy, the camera stopped freezing and cards last forever.
I have done nothing BUT formatting the card in both of the M9s that I've owned and never had a lick of trouble with either the new one or the used one that I shoot now. I only use SanDisk Extreme or Extreme Pro cards (on all my gear except the RD1) and having had bad luck with a couple 3rd party batteries, use only factory batteries.
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Old 08-28-2015   #16
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Same here: I formatted my cards in the M9 after every session and never had any problems with the camera. I used HP, Transcend, and Sandisk cards in it.

G
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Old 08-28-2015   #17
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There are, in general, complaints about M cameras locking up (although I do not experience the issue). Leica has addressed some bugs with the latest firmware update which appears to have cleared the problem, or very nearly so.
Make sure you are running 2.0.2.5
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Old 08-28-2015   #18
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If you haven't yet, I would suggest updating to the latest firmware. For the past couple years I've had consistently 'random' lock-ups with the camera about once every 1000 frames on average. After the last firmware update, lock-ups have happened much, much less frequently.
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Old 08-28-2015   #19
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I do usually delete individual files on the card from time to time. Someone said not to do that, but there's nothing in the manual that says not to, and the camera is set up for it, presumably for a reason. It's never caused a problem on the various digital cameras I've had before.
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Old 08-28-2015   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaospress View Post
Re memory cards and batteries:

The memory card is a SanDisk Extreme 45MB/s 16BG card. What it did do in the past couple weeks is stop in the middle of shooting video with a message saying something about the card being too slow to keep shooting video. I didn't give that much thought since I don't shoot much video anyway. At any rate though, I've never had a card cause a problem on a digital camera.

Battery is the original Leica battery and charge on it at the time of the misfires was 65%.
Well, you just did. That sounds like a card that needs to be restored using SD Formatter.
If you just delete your files you will leave fragments of data on the card which will clog it up. A normal format in the camera will not remove them. SD Formatter, which is the official program by the SD Association, will restore the file structure to its original state when the card was new.
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Old 08-28-2015   #21
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Firmware is 2.0.2.5. As far as I know that's the most recent one, having come out in July.
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Old 08-28-2015   #22
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jaapv, is SD Formatter a program to download or could I just reformat the card in camera?
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Old 08-28-2015   #23
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Quote:
This software formats all SD memory cards, SDHC memory cards and SDXC memory cards. SD Formatter provides quick and easy access to the full capabilities of your SD, SDHC and SDXC memory cards.

The SD Formatter was created specifically for memory cards using the SD/SDHC/SDXC standards. It is strongly recommended to use the SD Formatter instead of formatting utilities provided with operating systems that format various types of storage media. Using generic formatting utilities may result in less than optimal performance for your memory cards.
Download the free software from the SD Association (which is the club of SD card makers and camera companies etc)

https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_4/


When using the formatter choose overwrite format.

Actually I always format new cards and the ones I use from time to time. It can even speed up startup time.



Not applicable here, but not everybody sees the warning about formatting SDXC cards through a computer card slot.
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Old 08-28-2015   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaospress View Post
Firmware is 2.0.2.5. As far as I know that's the most recent one, having come out in July.
That is indeed he most recent one. You should encounter lockups only very rarely, if at all.

Don't forget you are using a computer with a lens, we have all experienced hangups with our PC or Mac. Unfortunately it comes with the territory.
Cameras are pretty good, but not 100% perfect in this respect.
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Old 08-28-2015   #25
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Same here: I formatted my cards in the M9 after every session and never had any problems with the camera. I used HP, Transcend, and Sandisk cards in it.

G
How many frames did you shoot on your M9? What was the firmware?

I've shot 140,000 frames.

You told him to call Leica. I told him to change the card.

OP: I would avoid Sandisk. I'd do a search at the L-forum and see what cards people are liking, besides those. I've had and heard problems about various versions. If you did format the card in camera multiple times, I would stop that and just erase all. See what happens.

The Leicas are famous for card issues. Nobody complains that much anymore, because compared to the crazy picky M8, the 240 seems to work with many more cards.
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Old 08-29-2015   #26
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This is not an M9 issue. It's a well documented M240 issue. The best way to mitigate this is to follow Jaap's advice above regarding SD Formatter. The only advice I would add is:
After formatting insert card in camera and format in camera.
Avoid deleting files in camera.
Lock the card before inserting into a Mac or iPad for downloading.
For optimum performance use a Sandisk 95mb/sec card 32gb card.

Please note that the Sd Formatter should only be needed once when the card is brand new prior to inserting in camera. Thereafter it should only be used in the unlikely event the card develops a problem.
Hope this helps, most of us M240 owners have been through the occasional lockup so you are in good company .
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Old 08-29-2015   #27
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I have very good results with Lexar Professional 16 GB 600x and even better with the newer 1000x

I would say use SD Formatter twice a year as well to claen the card up and restore the file structure.
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Old 08-29-2015   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
I have very good results with Lexar Professional 16 GB 600x and even better with the newer 1000x

I would say use SD Formatter twice a year as well to claen the card up and restore the file structure.
interesting. What do you find to be better about the 1000X compared to the 600x?
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Old 08-29-2015   #29
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Slightly faster startup, 1.2 sec over 1.4 sec. I understand from LUF that I have one of the faster copies - it varies. Testing method: Put a stopwatch on the screen of the laptop, aim the camera at the screen, Start the camera with the shutter button depressed whilst hitting the spacebar with the other hand at the same moment, camera records the time. Do so twelve times, redo obvious failures, discard slowest and fastest, average.
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Old 08-29-2015   #30
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Another thing to avoid religiously: Taking the card out of the camera without switching off. You can corrupt data, even the file structure doing so, if the camera happens to be writing to the card. I even destroyed a card irretrievably that way.
In the same vein, lock the card when downloading. Computers (especially Mac) write files back, or try to.
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Old 08-29-2015   #31
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Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
The Leicas are famous for card issues. Nobody complains that much anymore, because compared to the crazy picky M8, the 240 seems to work with many more cards.
Once again, not at all my experience with the M8.
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Old 08-29-2015   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Download the free software from the SD Association (which is the club of SD card makers and camera companies etc)

https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_4/


When using the formatter choose overwrite format.

Actually I always format new cards and the ones I use from time to time. It can even speed up startup time.



Not applicable here, but not everybody sees the warning about formatting SDXC cards through a computer card slot.
I downloaded and tried the SD card formatter on several different cards, both size and brand, testing with the M-P. Sandisk, Transcend, HP, Lexar; 16G, 32G, 64G ... So far, I have seen no evidence of any difference in operation between the ones formatted in the camera and the ones formatted with SD card formatter.

What is supposed to be different? What is supposed to be incorrect about the in-camera formatter? What is the issue with formatting SDXC cards with my computer? I just have no idea what you're referring to here.

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Old 08-29-2015   #33
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Once again, not at all my experience with the M8.
Indeed, it was not my experience with the M9 either. But the OP has a typ 240 anyway ... discussing these alleged problems with the M8 or M9 is entirely irrelevant, as is the number of exposures made, etc.

The issue is that the OP has seen some odd behavior with an M typ 240, itself a replacement provided for the original one he purchased. That's an issue that I'd take up with Leica. The card speed issue I mentioned is possibly a cause: that's the one change I've made to using the M-P that does seem to have an effect. The difference in behavior has been noticeable exclusively when using the M-P to record video, for me.

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Old 08-29-2015   #34
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Once again, not at all my experience with the M8.
No -the M8 is very undemanding of cards and nearly all issues reported have to do with trying to use too new types of cards. If you stick to SD or with later firmware SDHC and sizes like 8 MB max the camera is very undemanding and a bit of a card omnivore.
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Old 08-29-2015   #35
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I had this happen to me a couple of times with my M 240. Black screen + lock up. I think it has happened twice since I got my M 240 six months ago. Re-insertion of the battery did the trick.

It wasn't a critical failure, and only a temporary annoyance.

FWIW I'm using a Lexar 1000x Class 10 SD card, formatted in-camera. I definitely am a believer when it comes to using fast, high-quality cards. The performance of the M 240 improves drastically with a good card.

The new firmware seems to have made the camera even more stable, I've had no issues whatsoever since the upgrade.
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Old 08-29-2015   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaospress View Post
I'd expect for the price of a new M240 it would be bullet proof. It's a great camera but it has to work.

What are your experiences or thoughts?
You can expect what you wish, but every dRF from Leica has had and continues to have operating tribulations, from the M8 through the M240. None of them is bullet proof, assuming your standard is something like a pro-level dSLR (Canon 1-series for example).

My take is that these operating quirks are annoying yet manageable, and just part of using these cameras. You get something for the price of an M240, but it doesn't necessarily include bullet-proof, glitch-free operating performance, as has been true in varying degrees for its predecessors.
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Old 08-29-2015   #37
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here is the thread to look for the right card. Again, avoid Sandisk, unless you like the risk of a freeze.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/...rds-for-m-240/

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Old 08-29-2015   #38
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Talking

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None of them is bullet proof, assuming your standard is something like a pro-level dSLR (Canon 1-series for example).
I'm not that impressed with the 1-series Canon quality. I still own one that regularly locks up. Didn't even need to put a bullet through it. Probably should.
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Old 08-29-2015   #39
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Another thing to avoid religiously: Taking the card out of the camera without switching off. ...
In the same vein, lock the card when downloading. Computers (especially Mac) write files back, or try to.
I assume you mean "copy" from an inserted drive, not "download' from drive on Wifi or over the internet?

OSX will write the Unix hidden files .DS_Store, ._ AppleDouble, and a .Trashes folder -- it uses these files for indexing and deleting. These files should cause one little trouble. But you can certainly lock a card and it will be read only.

If one is really bothered by metadata, "Blue Harvest" can be installed. http://www.zeroonetwenty.com/blueharvest/

Cards should indeed not be removed from computer or camera, unless they are unmounted, or the device is off. But I do it all the time anyway, bad, bad.
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Old 08-29-2015   #40
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Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
Another thing to avoid religiously: Taking the card out of the camera without switching off. You can corrupt data, even the file structure doing so, if the camera happens to be writing to the card. I even destroyed a card irretrievably that way.
In the same vein, lock the card when downloading. Computers (especially Mac) write files back, or try to.
In 15 years of using flash-based storage cards to transfer files from camera to computer with OS X, I've never once had OS X write any files back to the card.

OS X does write UNIX hidden files to directories when running its own file system, but I haven't seen it write these files to FAT16, FAT32, or ExFAT file systems at all.

G
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